Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[bladeofdarkness]

when lelouch started acting like he did in the last arc
he was MUCH worse
at least cornellia showed concern for the lives of her OWN soldiers

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Dyllani

I thought he was. Clovis just seemed a bit flaky. Yeah, he was calm at first. But he probably thought he was being taken hostage. As soon as the gun was his face, he was crapping himself. You are right, though, his little brother Lelouch was standing before him, so maybe he though he could reach him. Maybe he wasn't cowardly, just a little dim...

Hm... actually, I think it's neither, really.
Clovis is probably not the most brave person, and of course, he can't match Schneizel when it comes to being cunning. But he's certainly not an idiot - if you have listened to the respective Sound Drama, you'll know that he felt he might have won the last match he played against Lelouch before it was adjourned. And SoundDrama!Clovis isn't someone for overconfident bragging.
He seemed to know Lelouch very well back then, and it's obvious he cared for and respected him a great deal. For him to say that he might have won, to me, means that he did indeed have a chance, and considering that even as a child, there were not many people capable of beating Lelouch at chess, that certainly says something. Not to mention they played 37 matched against each other, and if he hadn't been any good at all, Lelouch probably wouldn't have bothered - or if he had, he would just have crushed him, and Clovis would never have said what he did in Stage 0.884.
And that's why I think Clovis is an incredibly interesting character. You look at the Sound Drama and then at the anime, and you will see that enormous gap between the Clovis from back then and the Clovis three years later. But the closer you look, the more sense it makes, and it becomes even more tragic than before.
Or at least, that's how I feel. xD
I think Clovis knew his brother would pull the trigger (in the Sound Drama, he is completely sure that Lelouch would never go easy on him - ah, one has to appreciate the irony). And I also belive that this is exactly why he was so pathetic there.
He loved Lelouch so much. He respected him, and he admired his mother. And then there he was, accusing him of having killed Marianne and being so incredibly cold. Maybe it's just me being a fangirl, but I think at that moment, Clovis saw a lot of the person Lelouch had been made into - and not only was he afraid for his life and really not interested in being killed by the one person he truly gave a damn about, of all people, but he was positively horriefied.
That was the boy he had always played chess against. The boy he had seen as a friendly rival, whose mother he had admired and in whose honour he had taken on a job he used to despise (again, Sound Drama). The younger brother he never managed to let go and genuinely loved.
And there he was, ready to splash his own brother's brains out without a second of hesistation.
Not that Clovis really had the oppurtunity to think much about that, but still... I doubt he didn't notice that something other than the fact that he was about to be killed by a supposedly dead family member was seriously wrong.


Edit:
*looks at the small novel she has written and blinks*
...Damn. I'm such a fangirl. xD

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

when lelouch started acting like he did in the last arc
he was MUCH worse
at least cornellia showed concern for the lives of her OWN soldiers

Oh, that. Well, on one hand, he wanted to be hated by everyone in the world and die that way for world unity, as per his plan, the Zero Requiem.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well, i suppose you could at least give him a free-pass blade, he had to save his little sis, actually, he has to save her asap, that actually meant for him focusing only on that one.

actually i was talking about the Last arc of the show
the one where he basiclly sends his soldiers out in waves to get nuked by shnizel
his strategy (IN HIS WORDS) is basiclly telling his (geass controled) troops "go run out in front of the enemy machine-gun fire and get killed until they run out of ammo"
which i consider of of the most monstrus things he does during the entire show

but i see you already change that

@azul120

doesnt make him less of a monster
just gives him a reason to be one

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well, i suppose you could at least give him a free-pass blade, he had to save his little sis, actually, he has to save her asap, that actually meant for him focusing only on that one.

He could have easily "saved" her by having a diplomatic meeting with Schneizel, and creating a plan to reform Britannia together. Keep in mind that Lelouch knew that Schneizel was faking because this was the 10 minutes where Lelouch was omnipotent. The entire final battle was completely uneccessary, as was Zero Requiem.

All it did was kill thousand's of people, wiped out the ability to defend themselves, destroy Britannia's capital, probably crashed the Britannian stockmarket, and cause the last hope for Japan (who have lost basically their entire upper class, middle class, and basically anyone who isn't in poverty) to rebuild itself in a timely fashion.

The only reason given for this was Lelouch's belief that he must destroy when he had already gotten rid of the main reason for the wars (the despicable Britannian aristocrats)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually i was talking about the Last arc of the show
the one where he basiclly sends his soldiers out in waves to get nuked by shnizel
his strategy (IN HIS WORDS) is basiclly telling his (geass controled) troops "go run out in front of the enemy machine-gun fire and get killed until they run out of ammo"
which i consider of of the most monstrus things he does during the entire show

Actually, at this point Lelouch has manifested his whole existence into Zero Requiem and personally i do not mind this that much, compared to other things he did in Season 1, when he actually was not set out to die.
But well, that is Lelouch for you afterall. Breaking down his morals, for achieving results, that is nothing new. 8D

[bladeofdarkness]

i still think it was a rape the dog thing to do (maybe thats just the ex-soldier in me talking)
i only forgave him when i learned that he at least ment to die in the end to pay for his crimes
thats why i dont get why so many people WANT him to be alive

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i still think it was a rape the dog thing to do (maybe thats just the ex-soldier in me talking)
i only forgave him when i learned that he at least ment to die in the end to pay for his crimes
thats why i dont get why so many people WANT him to be alive

Because some of them are amoral fangirls who think Lelouch was awesome and deserved a happy life, not a happy death. They also think that "punishment" that doesn't serve any logical purpose at all is simply unnecessary and won't help anyone.

[Dyllani]

Originally Posted by azul120

That was still no excuse for what Lelouch and Nunnally had gone through. Lelouch correctly called Charles out for not caring for whether they lived or died.

Charles cared, but he had a part to play and he did it. Marianne babied the kiddies. Charles put on his mask and set out to conquer the world. He didn't believed his own nonsense, but he had a plan. Eventually, he had to make a choice, save the world or his brats. He chose the world (albeit through world's silliest most convoluted plan ever, human geass jello). No different than his son. Once Lelouch decided that his Requiem was the way to go, he set out to accomplish it. According to him and Suzaku, it didn't matter if they had to kill people they cared about, Requiem was the way to go.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

He could have easily "saved" her by having a diplomatic meeting with Schneizel, and creating a plan to reform Britannia together. Keep in mind that Lelouch knew that Schneizel was faking because this was the 10 minutes where Lelouch was omnipotent. The entire final battle was completely uneccessary, as was Zero Requiem.

All it did was kill thousand's of people, wiped out the ability to defend themselves, destroy Britannia's capital, probably crashed the Britannian stockmarket, and cause the last hope for Japan (who have lost basically their entire upper class, middle class, and basically anyone who isn't in poverty) to rebuild itself in a timely fashion.

The only reason given for this was Lelouch's belief that he must destroy when he had already gotten rid of the main reason for the wars (the despicable Britannian aristocrats)

Exactly, Lelouch and everyone else concerned, Charles, Schniezel, all of them were so stupid in the end. Charles was a mad man, he may have meant well. But he ended up doing to his kids, what was done to him and his brother. The world was already united against Charles. The lines of communication were open. This was the time for Schniezel, Lelouch and the global community to hammer out peace. I have no clue what those fools were thinking. The requiem was a joke. Just a selfish brat's attempt to atone for his sins. Schniezel, he went nuts.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i still think it was a rape the dog thing to do (maybe thats just the ex-soldier in me talking)
i only forgave him when i learned that he at least ment to die in the end to pay for his crimes
thats why i dont get why so many people WANT him to be alive

Shipping purposes. You do know that, don't you? 8D
But honest, Lelouch might be my favorite character ever, and actually as much as i would like to see him again kicking in an AU or something {8D} his sins were a shitload of lot, to ignore. And with ZR, he did got the first rank on my top-charas, exactly because he acknowledged all of his crap and found a way to work it out. Yes, it was way idealistic and way fairytale-ish, but he did act as an amazing boy in the end-end, wishing for a peaceful world, sacrificing his self.
Of course, calculating everything, he was not that amazing when it came to morality and stuff, but well, Lelouch is Lelouch. He chose to become the necessary evil for a non-evil future.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Because some of them are amoral fangirls who think Lelouch was awesome and deserved a happy life, not a happy death. They also think that "punishment" that doesn't serve any logical purpose at all is simply unnecessary and won't help anyone.

you say punishment
i say justice
and i think lelouch would agree

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i still think it was a rape the dog thing to do (maybe thats just the ex-soldier in me talking)
i only forgave him when i learned that he at least ment to die in the end to pay for his crimes
thats why i dont get why so many people WANT him to be alive

If he didn't plan on punishing himself by death, he definitely wouldn't have gone through with Zero Requiem and "become a demon". Simple as that. Totally counter to what he would have wanted to do, regardless of his final decision.

Anyways, the difference between what he did and what the Britannians had been doing was that he was being an equal opportunity offender in order to show the former oppressors along with everyone else that "tyranny's bad, mmmkay". Though I won't deny the merit of the argument of whether he needed to go through the lengths he did to make his point.

Originally Posted by Dyllani

Exactly, Lelouch and everyone else concerned, Charles Schniezel, all of them were so stupid in the end. Charles was a mad man, he may have meant well. But he ended up doing to his kids, what was done to him and his brother. The world was already united against Charles. The lines of communication was open. This was the time for Schniezel, Lelouch and the global community to hammer out piece. I have no clue what those fools were thinking. The requiem was a joke. Just a selfish brat's attempt to atone for his sins...

Except that Schneizel had his own far-fetched idea of world peace through fear. Besides, he already had a reputation of manipulating other people into serving his own goals, and he was no different in the end, using Nunnally as a pawn.

[bladeofdarkness]

did you really just argue
"he was a dick, but at least he was a dick to EVERYONE"
and there is a difference between being a dick
and being a hitler class ass hole (who BTW did believe fully that he was doing what was right to make the world a better place)

... did i just bring up hitler
damn

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you say punishment
i say justice
and i think lelouch would agree

Oh yes, Lelouch would agree - he would probably even add that his punishment is justice.
However, I never was one to agree with my favourite characters - I prefer kicking their butts instead -, and anyway, he sets different standards for himself than for everyone else, which means that either he has a very strange idea of what justice is, or he is a cake in disguise.
I say it's the latter, because I'm feeling rather hungry at the moment.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you say punishment
i say justice
and i think lelouch would agree

Pretty much the whole point of Lelouch's line "the ones that should shoot, are the ones prepared to get shot" <--you cannot always get away, that is justice. Lelouch had so many regrets, losses and so much pilecrap choking him inside, that he came up with his plan. {apart from the fact, that he was being Jesus Christ Superstar as well, for the sake of the epic-ness of the last epi of course 8D}

eta: lol, Lelouch = Hitler comparison, total fail blade, like honest.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

did you really just argue
"he was a dick, but at least he was a dick to EVERYONE"
and there is a difference between being a dick
and being a hitler class ass hole (who BTW did believe fully that he was doing what was right to make the world a better place)

... did i just bring up hitler
damn

I wasn't trying to argue that as a virtue. The thing was, Lelouch was making a point, even if it was in a ham-fisted manner. Regardless of whether his whole plan was necessary to begin with, he was doing it to show everyone that tyranny can affect anyone, anywhere, in order to get the world to unite. With Britannian Social Darwinism, since Britannians in general had it great, most of the Britannians either didn't care or were infact happy with the way Numbers were being treated, and that they were able to lord their superior status over them. Lelouch sought to eradicate that societal one-sidedness once and for all. (Again, you can write it all off as Fridge Logic, but there's no real shortage of that in CG, to be honest.)

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by azul120

If he didn't plan on punishing himself by death, he definitely wouldn't have gone through with Zero Requiem and "become a demon". Simple as that. Totally counter to what he would have wanted to do, regardless of his final decision.

Anyways, the difference between what he did and what the Britannians had been doing was that he was being an equal opportunity offender in order to show the former oppressors along with everyone else that "tyranny's bad, mmmkay". Though I won't deny the merit of the argument of whether he needed to go through the lengths he did to make his point.



Except that Schneizel had his own far-fetched idea of world peace through fear. Besides, he already had a reputation of manipulating other people into serving his own goals, and he was no different in the end, using Nunnally as a pawn.

Considering how corrupt Britannia was, and the response to Lelouch's original reforms, and would say the regular Britannians where already oppressed.

Also at least Lelouch could have tried to make peace with people instead of coming up with his insane plan.

[bladeofdarkness]

@nogi
after INTENTIONALY killing untold thousends of people
lelouch didnt just WANT to die
he DESERVED to
which was the whole point i suppose

@sky
i know its epic fail
but the reason i was making such a comperasion is becouse people tend to just IGNORE the stuff he did
he wasnt MEAN to people
he wasnt treating them unfairly
he was massacring them left and right
its not something i can just write out

@azul120
again, he set out to do horrible things
willingly and INTENTIONALLY
for the SOLE PURPOSE OF BEING THE BIGGEST MONSTER IN HISTORY
that he had good reason might JUSTIFY it
but it cant excuse it or forgive it
he willingly set out to be a greater monster then his father ever was
and charles was no small fry

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Considering how corrupt Britannia was, and the response to Lelouch's original freorms, and would say the regular Britannians where already oppressed.

Also at least Lelouch could have tried to make peace with people instead of coming up with his insane plan.

I would have preferred that too. But that would have been considered too anticlimactic for a show like Code Geass, unfortunately.

@bladeofdarkness
Sole purpose of becoming "the biggest monster"? No, the purpose behind that was to unite the world, though it could still be argued that he could have went about doing that in a far better way.

Becoming "the biggest monster" was means to an end, not an end in itself. (Though a few misguided Lelouch haters out there will argue the latter happened in spite of the facts.)

Lastly, in his plot to become "the biggest monster", he planned on his death in the end. If he were playing it straight in becoming the biggest monster, he wouldn't have. He would have planned on sticking around as long as he could to do it as long as possible. He was not planning on becoming a "straight demon" version of Light Yagami.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@nogi
after INTENTIONALY killing untold thousends of people
lelouch didnt just WANT to die
he DESERVED to
which was the whole point i suppose

I disagree. But I don't think there's a point in saying much else, because that "deserving" thing is simply a matter of personal feelings.
I have yet to see someone give me a logical reason why Lelouch had to die. I guess it's just not something that can really be "discussed".