Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Jaden]

Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority. Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal. But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.

In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.

[Cherry_Lover]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Haak

How does she know Shirou is the only person who gives her any meaning in her life? Because she knows that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?

Yes, exactly.

Rin knows Sakura is always sad, and she knows how important Shirou is to her because, when she saved Shirou in the beginning of FSN, her first thought was of Sakura, and how sad she would be. Given that, how is it remotely reasonable for her to just take Shirou off to London and not even think of what it might do to Sakura?

I said "if", didn't I? I wanted to clairify your posiiton. Let me repeat: If the fact that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou is not a factor anymore, then would you conceed that she can do anything she likes?

But it's not "not a factor", so I don't see the point of the question....

Rin has a right to be with the guy she loves, but that doesn't mean she should just abandon her little sister like you seem to be advocating.

He's not dead in the UBW end which is what we're talking about. How does she know that she's still unhappy? More specifically: How do you know she knows that?

The fact that Sakura never smiles except when Sakura is around.

This is question begging, because you're assuming in your premise here that it is reasonable for Rin to find out about Sakura's position. This what I'm trying to get you to prove first. You can't use it as a premise.

Sakura is being constantly abused by Shinji, and is permanently unhappy. That alone should be enough evidence for her to look more closely into her family life. As, indeed, is the very fact that she was adopted at all.

Passing a crest onto someone who isn't a member of your family is hard, and likely to be agonisingly painful, so why did the Matou family adopt her in the first place? Hell, even her fucking hair has changed colour, why the fuck did that not arouse suspicion?

There is no possible way for you to know that. It happened off screen. It's more than possible that she looked as closely as were within her bounds and still couldn't find anything. That is a possibility. There's absolutely nothing logically impossible about that.

Only because her "bounds" are far too restrictive, due to her father's idiocy. Sakura is her fucking sister and, as she herself admits in HF, the non-interference pact between their families was totally and utterly destroyed the moment Tokiomi gave Zouken his own daughter to revive the family. IF that's not "interfering", I don't know what is.

Again, Rin isn't going to know this, nor should she be expected to. She might think Shirou is simply someone who knows Sakura better than anyone.

She knows that Sakura is never happy, and she'll quickly enough realise that she is happy when Shirou is around once she gets to know him. That demonstrates quite conclusively that there is something seriously wrong.

My point was that they don't, and I explained why. Please don't do that.

And my point is that they do, and I explained why. To claim that a bunch of orphans who he never even met mean as much to him as a girl who he sees as family is utterly ludicrous.

I don't see how he could've tried or reasonably blame himself for not noticing.

Because she was being fucking tortured under his fucking nose. Whether or not he could really have been expected to find out, there's no way in hell he would not blame himself. Even if he were a normal person he would blame himself for that.

But even so he thinks like that about everything. The whole reason he wants to be superhero is because he actually feels guilt for being the only survivor.

And Sakura would be about 50 times worse, because he knows her personally and had plenty of chances to help her if he'd bothered to look into it more thoroughly. True, he had no reason to do so, but I very much doubt he'll see it that way.

Because like I said, they were more than a bunch of orphans.

They still don't come even fucking close to Sakura.

He didn't forget about the orphans either. And the fact that it all happened under his nose will be a big blow to him. But that still won't change anything.

It will make Shirou feel like a total failure. More so than the orphans did, because he could not really do anything to help them (other than wish on the Grail, which was a bad idea). He made a choice not to change things to save them (and that only applies in Fate anyway), whereas with Sakura it was simply that he did not notice that anything was wrong.

I never said he would forget about her. Nor did I say he wouldn't mourn her death.

That's what it sounded like....

I said that it would be difficult for Shirou to continuely see Sakura as family when she's longer a part of his life, especially if it's for a very long time.

I disagree with this. If you think of someone as "family", then you don't suddenly stop caring about them if you don't see them for a while. Plenty of people move away from their families, and even barely see them for years on end, but they still think of them as family, and still care deeply for them. I don't see Shirou losing that feeling for Sakura easily, especially when he finds out what she's been through.

If she died, he would be utterly devestated, and IMO it would drive him ever closer to becoming Archer. After all, what better indication do you need that you can't save everyone than someone close to you dying because you were too busy fighting elsewhere to save those you love?

Originally Posted by Jaden

Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority.

Magi are, by and large, total assholes. Rin and Sakura are not, because they're fundamentally decent people, but if Rin decides to go down that "asshole" route then honestly I don't want her to have a "happy ending", especially not at Sakura's expense.

Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal.

Erm, what?

Since when did Rin have a "good environment"?

But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.

Which is Rin's fucking fault, along with her idiot father. Sakura couldn't seek her out, because Zouken explicitly forbade it, but there's no reason Rin could not other than caring more about some fucking 400-year-old pact that they'd already broken anyway.

In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.

Because they clearly still care about each other. The way Rin acts towards Sakura in Fate and UBW makes that quite clear. In the short-term, she may not overcome her father's idiocy enough to actually reconcile with her sister, but I don't see Rin just forgetting about her entirely.

[Haak]

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yes, exactly.

Rin knows Sakura is always sad, and she knows how important Shirou is to her because, when she saved Shirou in the beginning of FSN, her first thought was of Sakura, and how sad she would be. Given that, how is it remotely reasonable for her to just take Shirou off to London and not even think of what it might do to Sakura?

It took a while and I had to ask twice but thanks for clarifying. Now hopefully I can clarifiy the next one

But it's not "not a factor",
so I don't see the point of the question....

Rin has a right to be with the guy she loves, but that doesn't mean she should just abandon her little sister like you seem to be advocating.

Okay then, just imagine that it's no longer an issue. Just imagine it. Now, if somehow, in some possible way, there was a perfectly acceptable explanation to explain why Rin took off with Shirou knowing what Shirou means to Sakura, would you then say that's totally okay?

The fact that Sakura never smiles except when Sakura is around.

...what? Okay, I'm sure you meant "when Shirou is around" but that still doesn't make any sense. Bear in mind this the UBW True End. The Holy Grail War is over. We don't actually see Sakura and only get one line about how Shinji is possibly being nicer to Sakura. So exactly do you know that Sakura is still unhappy and never smiles unless she's around Shirou?

Sakura is being constantly abused by Shinji, and is permanently unhappy. That alone should be enough evidence for her to look more closely into her family life. As, indeed, is the very fact that she was adopted at all.

Passing a crest onto someone who isn't a member of your family is hard, and likely to be agonisingly painful, so why did the Matou family adopt her in the first place? Hell, even her fucking hair has changed colour, why the fuck did that not arouse suspicion?

Rin was just a child when Sakura left so she probably doesn't remember what her hair color was like. I doubt she'd have a photo either. As for her family life it's more than possible that she asked questions about that and still come up short. After all, even Shirou didn't think to take it any further. As for why she doesn't ask why the Matou family adopted Sakura, I'm pretty sure it's a rule amound magi and a common practice that any other children besides the heir are usually sent somewhere else so there's no comeptition. And Rin believed that the Matou family were no longer a magi family as evidenced by her surprise at finding out Shinji is competing in the Holy Grail War.

Only because her "bounds" are far too restrictive, due to her father's idiocy. Sakura is her fucking sister and, as she herself admits in HF, the non-interference pact between their families was totally and utterly destroyed the moment Tokiomi gave Zouken his own daughter to revive the family. IF that's not "interfering", I don't know what is.

The only reason your saying her bounds are too restrictive is because she's her sister. I mentioned several times that she can consider such things relative if she wants to and clearly chose to do so in the end of every route besides HF.

She knows that Sakura is never happy, and she'll quickly enough realise that she is happy when Shirou is around once she gets to know him. That demonstrates quite conclusively that there is something seriously wrong.

What? How does that demonstrate that Shirou's actions can't be an indicator of what is reasonable for Rin? Once more, bear in mind that Rin has seen very little of Shirou and Sakura's interactions.

And my point is that they do, and [i]I[/i] explained why. To claim that a bunch of orphans who he never even met mean as much to him as a girl who he sees as family is utterly ludicrous.

Because she was being fucking tortured under his fucking nose. Whether or not he could really have been expected to find out, there's no way in hell he would not blame himself. Even if he were a normal person he would blame himself for that.

Same for the orphans

And Sakura would be about 50 times worse, because he knows her personally and had plenty of chances to help her if he'd bothered to look into it more thoroughly. True, he had no reason to do so, but I very much doubt he'll see it that way.

Exactly. Because as i said he always looks at it that way.

They still don't come even fucking close to Sakura.

They do.

It will make Shirou feel like a total failure. More so than the orphans did, because he could not really do anything to help them (other than wish on the Grail, which was a bad idea). He made a choice not to change things to save them (and that only applies in Fate anyway), whereas with Sakura it was simply that he did not notice that anything was wrong.

Same for Sakura

That's what it sounded like....

Okay now I'm starting to get angry. It wasn't. I made a concerted effort not to make it sound like that. Sorry but this time I'm not having it. You were trying to interpretate everything I said in the worst way possible for Sakura as you always do...

I disagree with this. If you think of someone as "family", then you don't suddenly stop caring about them if you don't see them for a while. Plenty of people move away from their families, and even barely see them for years on end, but they still think of them as family, and still care deeply for them. I don't see Shirou losing that feeling for Sakura easily, especially when he finds out what she's been through.

...and still doing even after I just told you...

*Sigh* I never said he would lose that feeling and I never said he would suddenly stop caring about her. And no that's not what it sounded like.

If she died, he would be utterly devestated, and IMO it would drive him ever closer to becoming Archer. After all, what better indication do you need that you can't save everyone than someone close to you dying because you were too busy fighting elsewhere to save those you love?

He would be utterly devastated yes. He would mourn her loss, yes. But only for a person who is no longer a part of his life. Unfortunately it would not be comparable to losing those he loves more and who are a part of his life. Sakura doesn't have to still be family for him to be devastated when she dies but can acknowledge her as someone who was once a part of her family. He would move on. She can still be a part of his family if they both make an effort to keep in contact. But as I pointed out that would be incredibly difficult for Shirou who is likely to be embroiled in more conflicts in his effort to dedicate his life in becoming a superhero.

And no it wouldn't drive him to become Archer. He already saw Ilya's death in front of his own eyes. And yes that is just as bad. Ilya might not have meant as much to Shirou but she was right there and he saw her heart literally pulled of her. Compare that to a once family member that simply dies in what he can only assume to be an unfortunate accident or whatever excuse Shinji or Zoken gives him

[Reckoner]

Mandatory F/S N fagging for this song. I might even like it more than Emiya.

I'm kind of skeptical of Kaijura's abilities to bring anything like this to the table in her OST for fate/zero.

[LostHanyou]

^
Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

^
Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.

It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??

[Auria]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??

Yeah, it's Haga Keita. Don't know anything else he did. Of course his music in F/SN was memorable (though I'm not really that fond of the song you posted above somehow) but since we're dealing with a totally different medium and a totally different style here I doubt we can expect anything in that direction. But we should give the anime-music time and scenes to prove itself, since we often remember the best soundtracks with the best scenes along them (make the good scenes the soundtrack good? Or the good soundtrack the scenes? Or both? Or whatever? XDDD). But I think there is a high probability Kajiura won't do an Emiya remix, I don'
t remember her doing something like this before though it could be possible here since a lot of fans would request it and there was a scene it went along really well in the Sound Drama.

Sorry for this lengthy answer, if you wish to discuss this issue further let's move to the OST thread.

[.:Jason:.]

So, can someone explain the Lesser and Greater Grastils? I've looked at the wiki but I'm still lost about it.

[TwilightsCall]

From what I understand from reading the original VN...

The Greater Grail is the actual main source of the Grail wars. It collects mana from the surrounding area over time in order to facilitate the grail war, a process that generally takes 60 years to complete. The primary function of the Great Grail and the purpose for the grail wars in the first place is to open a pathway to the Root. If I recall correctly, the Great Grail is also what summons the servants and selects the masters. In essence, almost everything in the war is done by the great grail.

The Lesser Grail is created seperately for each war. When they speak of the 'vessel' for the grail, they generally are speaking of the Lesser Grail, ie Illya in the fifth war and so on. The purpose of the Lesser Grail is to collect the spirits of the fallen Servants and hold them until the end of the grail war. Once it has collected 6 Servants (or possibly just enough energy) and once enough time passes, the Lesser Grail activates to open a pathway to the Greater Grail in order to provide the mana to grant the prize to the winner.

Since the Greater Grail was corrupted, whenever the Lesser Grail opened the pathway to the Greater Grail it would start pouring out the corrupted energy (which materialized as the black mud). In most routes and in Fate Zero, the heroes attempt to solve the problem by destroying the Lesser Grail, which while closing the connection to the Great Grail, doesn't really solve the problem of the corruption.

In Heaven's Feel Illya closes the gate to the Great Grail which stops the corruption from leaking out as well. The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x


Also keep in mind I'm recalling all this purely from memory, so I could be wrong on some of the finer details :x

[cecil]

Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.

[.:Jason:.]

So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

[alumnox]

Originally Posted by cecil

Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.

Lol no need to jump from a building. Just ask the question where the mod suggested and Ill answer it the best I can.

The church thing is really interesting but I'm afraid I don't have permission to explain things anymore beyond superficial answers so what I can tell you is that for the fateverse page 265 from the complete materials collection. The church although they care for lives is not really in charge of protecting or saving them their job is to protect the souls but not the people or their bodies who are just vessels.

There are very good "dots" connecting the cease of hostilities between the church and the magic association, the Tohsaka family and its embroilment with them, when how and why it was formed, the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament, the burial agency and a long etc. Look for that information for yourself (sorry) and that pretty much will let you understand why the church works as an arbitrary.

Originally Posted by .:Jason:.

So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

Avenger comes forth to the fate reality from the swirl of root using energy from the origin to manifest itself (Caren Ortensia's - fate hollow ataraxia and Dead Apostles extra material the section of the corruption of alaya) so you can do whatever you want to the system Avenger will remain in it because of his special class skill as long as its not purified from it or he cast off the skill.

Edit..

Pure speculation: Even when he is nothing else that just disembody energy I think its still a paradox so Alaya will hinder it at some point (what she does in my opinion in hollow ataraxia) to eventually remove him.

Spoiler for IMAGE FROM HA:

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x

Not quite and Nasu already answer this questions. if you want you can ask in the really really spoiling thread and i can answer it.

spoilers here

Spoiler:

weaver survive the 4th grail war and became a full professor in the clock-tower. He dismantle the grail system after the 5th war so there will not be another grail war. Weaver is Rin's professor in clock-tower.

[Aqua Knight]

When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?

[Kanon]

He used it in his fight against Saber alter, IIRC.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?

Against Alter Saber when she was fighting Rider

[edit]

Ninja'd

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by .:Jason:.

So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

As long as the gate isn't opened, AM can't come out from the other side. Dismantling the system and destroying the giant magic circle in the cavern under Ryuudo Temple will end his link to this plane for good.

Why it came out through Sakura and why Kotomine was able to use it, was because the Gate to the other side was opened. It can't be purified because it's source is on the other side, so what you need to do is to close the gate (the link to this world) to end the threat or destroy the magic circle either before or after the gate is opened.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kanon

He used it in his fight against Saber alter, IIRC.

Which is one of the things that made HF so bad ass. Shirou pulled out everything.

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

If Nasu wasn't such a troll we wouldn't have an HF route at all.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

If Nasu wasn't such a troll we wouldn't have an HF route at all.

Easy man... you'll upset the fanatics.