Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That's actually one of the few things I'm disappointed with in Kayneth's demise, the fact that there wasn't any confrontation between him and his foil since their quick exchange back in the battle at the harbor. Their elitism/conservatism vs hard-work-can-overcome-bloodline feud could have been pretty interesting and a good addition to the major theme of the way the magus world functions in Fate, and it might have been particularly interesting to see Kayneth appear before his cheeky student after being reduced to that wheelchair, but I guess we'll never know now.

The no-name taking on the elite and winning against all odds is too much of a shounen manga trope to be included literally in this anime.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Rahan

The no-name taking on the elite and winning against all odds is too much of a shounen manga trope to be included literally in this anime.

Which is one of the reasons why it might have been fun to see what sort of twist Urobuchi would give it.

[LunarMoon]

The quotes from George Orwell that, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf,” or that, “men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them,” epitomizes Kiritsugu perfectly.

People like Kiritsugu, whether in the military, or as members of the various Special Forces units peppered throughout each country, are the unsung heroes of the world. And military operations are routinely decided, based upon the utilitarian logic that Kiritsugu lives and breathes upon. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for instance, resulted in the deaths of thousands of civilians, many of them children, but was justified based upon the idea that fewer people would die in those attacks than would die if a full scale invasion of Japan were to be orchestrated. Chivalry rarely enters into the equation.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Which is one of the reasons why it might have been fun to see what sort of twist Urobuchi would give it.

It would've been the same sort of twist as Soal-Ui twisting Kayneth's finger off :P. Painful, horrifying, and leaves you feeling scared at what is about to happen next.

Considering I grew to like Waver, I prefer he stays as far away as possible from whatever torture Gen-san is cooking up for everyone involved ...

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Considering I grew to like Waver, I prefer he stays as far away as possible from whatever torture Gen-san is cooking up for everyone involved ...

As I said before I do not expect Waver to be the winner, but I at least hope he gains something positive (the opposite of what happened to Lancer) from his experience.

Should I hope so much from Gen though?

[Lordarrow]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

The quotes from George Orwell that, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf,” or that, “men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them,” epitomizes Kiritsugu perfectly.

People like Kiritsugu, whether in the military, or as members of the various Special Forces units peppered throughout each country, are the unsung heroes of the world. And military operations are routinely decided, based upon the utilitarian logic that Kiritsugu lives and breathes upon. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for instance, resulted in the deaths of thousands of civilians, many of them children, but was justified based upon the idea that fewer people would die in those attacks than would die if a full scale invasion of Japan were to be orchestrated. Chivalry rarely enters into the equation.

So you would be okay with individually torturing and maiming as many innocents as possible to force a country to capitulate? By torturing, I mean beheadings, summary executions, mutilations, stoning, rape etc. Think of the Armenian massacres and the Japanese occupation of nanking. There is a reason why we we have certain basic rules governing the course of warfare. The Geneva conventions for one. There is a line between deliberate inhuman sadism and warfare. Putting special forces in the same category as Kirigitsu is a falsehood.

They are surgical precision units governed by the military and the government. They are thus under the jurisdiction of the rules of warfare. They kill their targets as fast, silently and as efficiently as possible with the absolute minimum of possible blow-back . "If" they were to be found out to have massacred many civilians, they would indeed be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They would be disavowed and thrown to the wolves. Kirigitsu on the other hand is not bound by such rules. He can and will kill anyone regardless of how many will die in the process for the greater good. He is not bound by any rules and as such doesn't need to take into consideration for the consequences. He is a assassin not a soldier. For example, he even brought down a whole plane full of innocents to kill one person. Couldn't there been better options that Kirigitsu could've conceived? Probably. But did he have to? No he did not because he chose not to. He more or less lost his value of human life. If Irisviel hadn't insisted that Kirigitsu evacuate the building, he would've been totally okay with killing everyone in it. That would even more brutally efficient, because then Kayneth probably wouldn't have realized that a surprise attack was coming.

[jeroz]

With all those alliance talk from Rider, and that Chivalry talk between Lancer and Saber, I think a lot of people forgot that this is still a survival game. As much as Rider wants to avoid it, the only way to settle this competition is to fight to the death whatever means possible.

Now I don't really agree with the method Kiritsugu used nor his cold blooded nature, but I don't really see him as evil since he's playing within the rules. Was it necessary to torture other contestants to this extent? However, what that talk hinted at makes me very interested to see his back story. We saw some signs in the trailer and the OP, and I just wonder what kind of torturous hell he went through to become such a twisted idealist.

On the same time, it's very fascinating to see the change to Kotomine. His discovery to true self and enlightenment is one interesting ongoing plot that many seem to have missed. Judging by the preview seems like the alliance between him and Tohsaka will be the spotlight next episode

[Master_Yoma]

Kiritsugu is just so dam cold

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

So you would be okay with individually torturing and maiming as many innocents as possible to force a country to capitulate? By torturing, I mean beheadings, summary executions, mutilations, stoning, rape etc. Think of the Armenian massacres and the Japanese occupation of nanking. There is a reason why we we have certain basic rules governing the course of warfare. The Geneva conventions for one. There is a line between deliberate inhuman sadism and warfare. Putting special forces in the same category as Kirigitsu is a falsehood.

There are two controversial events, of present note, that the U.S. military was involved in during World War II. The first was, of course, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while the second involved the rape of over 1,000 women during the invasion of Okinawa. The first of these events was done out of pragmatism and was arguably necessary to end World War II, with as little bloodshed as possible. The second was out of pure sadism, and is universally criticized.

All of Kiritsugu’s actions, that we have seen so far, have been out of the former. Kiritsugu is a pragmatist and an utilitarian in the purist sense, believing in the value of sacrificing 10 people in order to save 100. He derives no enjoyment from what he does, loathes himself, and as shown in the first episode, believes that he’s unworthy to hold his own daughter. His combat style is based purely upon producing as little suffering, and with causing as few deaths, as possible, because that what utilitarians do. There is no evidence that Kiritsugu would be involved in any of the atrocities that you mentioned, because none of them, such as rape, serve any practical end.

They are surgical precision units governed by the military and the government. They are thus under the jurisdiction of the rules of warfare. They kill their targets as fast, silently and as efficiently as possible with the absolute minimum of possible blow-back . "If" they were to be found out to have massacred many civilians, they would indeed be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They would be disavowed and thrown to the wolves. Kirigitsu on the other hand is not bound by such rules. He can and will kill anyone regardless of how many will die in the process for the greater good. He is not bound by any rules and as such doesn't need to take into consideration for the consequences.

This point is difficult to assess, because of the differences between the magi world of the Nasuverse, and the real world. That and we really don’t know what Kiritsugu’s registration status is, or whether he would even be categorized as a vigilante. Either way, it’s difficult to imagine Kiritsugu being involved in a Nanking-style massacre, due to the reasons stated in the previous paragraph.

He is a assassin not a soldier. For example, he even brought down a whole plane full of innocents to kill one person. Couldn't there been better options that Kirigitsu could've conceived? Probably. But did he have to? No he did not because he chose not to. He more or less lost his value of human life. If Irisviel hadn't insisted that Kirigitsu evacuate the building, he would've been totally okay with killing everyone in it. That would even more brutally efficient, because then Kayneth probably wouldn't have realized that a surprise attack was coming.

As of now, we know nothing of that incident or of the circumstances surrounding it. But let’s theorize that the person on that plane posed a reasonable enough threat that allowing them to leave the plane would have resulted in the loss of thousands of lives. In that regard, it becomes difficult to argue against Kiritsugu’s actions, since it’d be a simple matter of killing as few as 20 people in order to save thousands. Doing nothing would be a form of moral cowardice that would result in a greater loss of life.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

So you would be okay with individually torturing and maiming as many innocents as possible to force a country to capitulate? By torturing, I mean beheadings, summary executions, mutilations, stoning, rape etc. Think of the Armenian massacres and the Japanese occupation of nanking. There is a reason why we we have certain basic rules governing the course of warfare. The Geneva conventions for one. There is a line between deliberate inhuman sadism and warfare. Putting special forces in the same category as Kirigitsu is a falsehood.

They are surgical precision units governed by the military and the government. They are thus under the jurisdiction of the rules of warfare. They kill their targets as fast, silently and as efficiently as possible with the absolute minimum of possible blow-back . "If" they were to be found out to have massacred many civilians, they would indeed be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They would be disavowed and thrown to the wolves. Kirigitsu on the other hand is not bound by such rules. He can and will kill anyone regardless of how many will die in the process for the greater good. He is not bound by any rules and as such doesn't need to take into consideration for the consequences. He is a assassin not a soldier. For example, he even brought down a whole plane full of innocents to kill one person. Couldn't there been better options that Kirigitsu could've conceived? Probably. But did he have to? No he did not because he chose not to. He more or less lost his value of human life. If Irisviel hadn't insisted that Kirigitsu evacuate the building, he would've been totally okay with killing everyone in it. That would even more brutally efficient, because then Kayneth probably wouldn't have realized that a surprise attack was coming.

You totally don't understand Kiritsugu's character. He is professional magus killer, not a mindless murderer. He always think about the method and planning and choose the most efficient way with the least casualty. If there is a method that would not involves people AND can eliminate his target with a 100% certainty, of course he would use it. But the world generally does not always work like that, and too many times that sacrifice is needed to obtain the goal.

And the example you gave in the first paragraph summed it pretty well why Kiritsugu said wars/battlefields are hell. And that's the reason why he will do anything in the most efficient way to win the Holy Grail War.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Lordarrow

Putting special forces in the same category as Kirigitsu is a falsehood.

What actions taken by Kiritsugu thus far suggests he isn't at least close to such a comparison. He acts out of the concept that violence wil lead to the greater good and heck he even takes out his targets in a cold militaristic manner.

It is also not as if he is going around killing people all willy nilly without any regard for other uninvolved people's safety. As Alaya pointed out above me the guy will take the the course with least casualities if he is certain it will work.

[Archon_Wing]

"A crime called victory" And poor Irisviel. And silly Saber. And the shit was just fucking brutal mentally and physically this episode and we have so much more to go and descend to. This series is really hitting the home runs this season. 9/10 Now that's what you call a conflict.

[vansonbee]

I disliked Archibald in the past and also sympathized for his romantic relationships, but my dislike lesser even more seeing how he give up his chances/pride to save Sola.

I like Sola, her design was very cute! RIP

Die Emiya! GRR

[AzureWrath]

Re-watching the episode, I've really taken notice of the rather obvious foreshadowing. I mean, can they make it anymore clear that the grail will be evil (yes, we are anthropomorphizing holy cups).

Between Lancer's dying words and Kiritsugu's notation that he will take on all the evils of the world to change it, I don't think we will be very surprised by the grail's nature in the end.

[theflyingturkey]

Kiritsugu is a magnificent bastard.
That is all.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Actually, in the Novel, Saber after her confrontation with him believed that the only person who deserve to obtain the grail is Kiritsugu.

Spoiler for Saber on Kiritsugu from LN:

*Que Code Geass Music*

The BD version of fate zero season 1 with all the missed dialogue has almost finished downloading, with that we'll see if there's anything else we missed.

[Jimmy C]

I hope the scene between Reisei and Kayneth is extended when the BD set comes out. I would like to see if Reisei does mention that Waver and Kiritsugu collected their extra Command Seals already. Perhaps we'll find out something about that in the coming episodes too.
One thing I can't agree with is that Kayneth though it would be a good idea to kill the supervisor after the Seals had been awarded to others already. He has only one Seal. It doesn't matter if his opponents have 4 or 40, he's never overcoming that disadvantage. Had he left the supervisor alive, perhaps there might be future opportunities to win more Seals. Killing the supervisor now shuts that door.
Yet, if the others hadn't collected their Seals already, I don't see why the supervisor would consider Kayneth's request at all. It'd be easy to argue that Lancer played no direct part in actually stopping Lancer. And if Waver doesn't get one for Rider's part, then Kayneth shouldn't get one for doing even less.

[Pocari_Sweat]

This episode was pretty much pure awesome. Call me sadistic but I rofled hard when Emiya was pretty much this:

"Here's a contract. Now sign it Biatch!"
"Oh you signed it? You die anyway!"

Talk about a straight forward version of Kyuubey :3.

The Saber/Emiya talk afterwards regarding "just wars" was very interesting too. And who could forget that beserker rage face Lancer gave before he dissappeared.

10/10 for the episode.

[Crontica]

I just hope Waver makes it out of this bloodbath alive or more than that if he ever survives, to specialize in avoiding stumbling onto such catastrophes to begin with.

[klare]

cant help but feel Lancer was too nice all this while, that is why he ended up like this

2 teams down in 2 episodes, we are really moving forward now