2007-05-22, 00:01 | Link #41 | |
9wiki
Scanlator
|
Quote:
A friend of mine who was a devout atheist (and may still be) put it more succinctly: "Even if the odds of us existing by chance are one in a hundred trillion, any one who DOES exist by chance is going to have the same odds of existing by chance as some one who didn't." To which I replied, "You wouldn't bet horses on those odds." Science and Judeo-Christian religion aren't opposed. To think that they are opposed is to misunderstand either religion or the scientific method. Most people on either side don't even understand the stance they're arguing from, and so the squabbling continues. As far as I can see, it takes more faith to believe that we're a product of chance rather than design. I think that's what makes up the strong contingent that states that science and religion are at odds: People who don't want to believe in God find it easier to believe in infinitesimal odds if they first disprove to themselves their concept of God or religion. I just kind of find it funny that people will dismiss the entire concept of a creator out of hand when the alternative is so unlikely. Which isn't to say "atheism is silly, every one should be convert to my religion", but to say that agnosticism as a far more intellectually defensible position than atheism. But since the basic idea of a creator has nothing to do with the "Creationism Science" movement, I suppose I'm getting off topic. |
|
2007-05-22, 01:02 | Link #42 |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 35
|
I hate to sound so close-minded, but I just don't care if other people try to persuade me that creationism is not proven scientifically. It's a matter of faith. I have my own ideas about the Bible and scientific theory, of which I don't feel like getting into a long discussion over.
Instead of being evangelistic, I have adopted a "wait and see" attitude. I find that it's a much lower stress stance to maintain.
__________________
|
2007-05-22, 05:54 | Link #43 | |||
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2007-05-22, 06:06 | Link #44 | |
at what speed must i live
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 33
|
This debate was rekindled in Australia in the Sydney Morning Herald recently, when Richard Dawkins' two-part documentary, The Root of All Evil?, was shown on Australian TV on Sunday. Wow, such dogged dogmaticism (no pun intended, really) on both sides.
Honestly, though I feel that the atheist movement (Dawkins, Hitchens and co) have reason on their side, that's not going to help much in the way of persuading the rest of the population. Like Dan Gardner said in the Ottawa Citizen, Quote:
edit: I'm thankful our Prime Minster hasn't aggressively pushed for ID/Creationism to be taught in our schools. |
|
2007-05-22, 07:51 | Link #45 |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Well, I remembered something I wanted to put into my post, which I forgot:
Honestly, one of the main reasons why I see religion failing is because it is too egocentric. I mean, it takes humanity as a uniqueness in the universe, as the center of it, as the main reason for its existence. It took a long time for mankind to finally grasp that the Earth is not the center of the universe, and yet, religion keeps on carrying within itself such a sense of biological self-centering which I find awfully amusing. It's like I argued in a thread we were discussing about nature and whatnot (I think it was the dolphin massacre thread), when I noticed people making a clear distinction between "mankind" and "nature", when in truth, I believe that mankind and everything man-made is as much a part of nature as your regular tree. Religion still pushes on with this dichotomy, which leads, in my opinion, to a mistaken view on the position of humanity in the universe.
__________________
|
2007-05-22, 08:39 | Link #46 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2007-05-22, 08:46 | Link #47 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2007-05-22, 09:15 | Link #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
It's pointless to worry about flying pigs until we actually see any.
__________________
|
|
2007-05-22, 09:25 | Link #49 |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
No, no, you didn't get me. If you assert god exists, in order to explain things unexplainable right now, you're incurring into a fallacy because there's no proof, and if you assert there's no god behind the things unexplainable right now, then you're also incurring into a fallacy, because we don't know yet. That's the way I was taught in philosophy class--maybe I'm not phrasing my thoughts correctly, but I'm sure it had something to do with that.
__________________
|
2007-05-22, 09:37 | Link #50 | ||||
9wiki
Scanlator
|
Quote:
Quote:
The huge difference there is that assuming the existence of a creator does very little, if anything, for our scientific understanding. We may come to a point, though, where assuming the NON-existence of a creator could become a limiting factor to our understanding. Quote:
This entire world is full of creatures that beat the odds because of their ability to adapt. What's more curious to me is that there is both an environment in which these things COULD adapt, and that there was any motivation TO adapt (of course I don't mean intellectual motivation). Objects at rest do tend to stay at rest, after all, even in biology--and especially when biology technically does not exist yet in a particular time or place. Assumptions about adaptation are why I chuckle about people being so excited about finding water on other celestial bodies. It is really neat to think that there could be life on other planets, but even assuming the unlikely occurance of abiogenesis elsewhere, who's to say that all other life forms are carbon based? If we evolved by chance from a single celled organism developed by abiogenesis millions of years ago, why do we assume that abiogenesis looks like that everywhere? I think if we did find cellular, carbon-based life forms on other planets it would be further evidence for the likelyhood of a creator... just one that for some reason really liked the whole inspiring carbon-based life form schtick for whatever reasons. There would also be the possibility of already existing life being "seeded" from mass moving through space, but that in itself introduces even more unlikelyhoods. Quote:
From the Judeo-Christian side, humans not only weren't the center of creation, but creation wasn't only earthly life. According to this religious standpoint, earth was only a part of larger creation, and life wasn't limited to earth (or even the types of life found on earth). Humans were special in certain ways (reasoning and some other intangible element separating them from animals), but were still part of a larger picture of life. I agree, viewing humans as the center of the universe, either literally or metaphorically, is egocentric. It's not a view supported by the Judeo-Christian religion, however. So many of its followers think that way, though, I can see how people would assume the religion teaches it. |
||||
2007-05-22, 10:11 | Link #51 | |||
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2007-05-22, 11:09 | Link #52 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Thus, while the statement "God doesn't exist" may seem fallacious; the statement, "There's no evidence to suggest that God exists" is much more scientifically correct. Functionally, there's not much difference between the two. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2007-05-22, 11:27 | Link #53 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
The idea that we're not alone in an entire universe is very compelling, hence the desire to search. There is always the chance we may actually be the first form of intelligent life -- spreading it around might be a bit centrist but seems to make things mean a bit more.
Also... in the murky 1-in-a-trillion chance we actually NEEDED to go somewhere else ... it would be nice to already know which way to go
__________________
|
2007-05-22, 11:45 | Link #54 | ||
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2007-05-22, 12:12 | Link #55 | |
あ!
|
Quote:
________________________ Religion can be something very enriching, at least it is for some people I know. I however am too biased in my belief and understanding of the world, I have no choice but to dismiss the existence of some creator, at least in the sense that I believe religion does teach it. What's so unlikely about life coincidentally (determined or not doesn't really make a difference, it just would assume one common source for all of chance) evolving on one of ∞ planets in space? Moreover, we don't even know if mankind is the only form of life, I don't find other intelligent beings all that unlikely (even though intelligent is probably not the appropriate term here, since it would once again presume the narrow mindset of mankind). It might be so very different from what we can percieve or even imagine that our limited means of cognition don't and will never suffice to even notice it's existence.
__________________
|
|
2007-05-22, 12:18 | Link #56 | ||
9wiki
Scanlator
|
Quote:
Humans, of course, are distinct from the rest of nature, despite being part of it. They are the only beings in nature that have to put effort into co-existing with nature without unbalancing the systems they are part of. To the best of our observation, humans are also the only beings in nature capable of reason, and it's a good thing, because human id without reason would wreck the natural systems around it. They are, for the most part, "outside the circle", and at the top of the chain of life until they're decaying in the ground. That much can be observed without religion. Genesis puts it in perspective, though, by saying "Humans screwed things up for every one." The message being that humans should be humble despite the place they observe themselves relative to the rest of nature. (There's more to the message, but is really irrelevant until that humility is well established) Quote:
I doubt we'll ever come to a point in science where we actually get to the point of determining anything about a creator, though. I expect that we'll continue to study the "how" without ever scientifically getting to the questions of "who/what" or "why". The most we grapple with right now are scientists who give undue credit to certain hypotheses or theories that, in their minds, discredit religion, while maligning those that might align with positions already taken by people who've taken their beliefs from their religions. Personal bias distorting scientific study isn't confined to religious debate, though. Despite our back and forth quibbling over semantics, it seems that our viewpoints on this are pretty close. I find that quite interesting that's the case, considering our different backgrounds. |
||
2007-05-22, 12:25 | Link #57 | |
www.thefestlanders.com
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
I wouldn't expect that sort of thing to happen in any Universities at all. It might be a certain high school in a certain county of a certain state with this 'problem'. I'm sure there are a lot of cases where it goes unnoticed because the community agrees with it, but I don't really know what kind of an impact it has on the rest of the country. http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/ I'm sure you've seen this before It's a little different ... ID taught alongside evolution. |
|
2007-05-22, 12:28 | Link #58 | ||
9wiki
Scanlator
|
Quote:
Quote:
Which would be more exciting? Discovering horses exist across multiple continents, or discovering the platypus? Every one has their own opinion, of course. |
||
2007-05-22, 12:45 | Link #59 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Quote:
But you're right... its a big country and the attitudes vary dramatically even within a few miles of each other.
__________________
|
|
2007-05-22, 13:10 | Link #60 | |
www.thefestlanders.com
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
I know that Santa Clara(the christian private school in my area), is no different from any other high rated university in terms of the quality of education you can get there. It's still hard to get in and all that. So there are exceptions to that too. I'll also tell an interesting story about something that happend in a public school. There is a program called middle college, in a local community college. You spend your last year of high school taking college classes and you get credit for high school and for college. It was ment to inspire students who didn't do so well in High School. The teacher that organized this program had an interesting curriculum. He was supposed to be a gov/econ teacher but he did this whole segment on 'critical thinking', where we would 'think critically' about evolutionary theory. Basically we spent about a month disproving evolution and finding unlawful court decision that were pro-choice(abortion). Also covered a bunch of court cases where it was ruled 'violation of church and state' and Mr. Booth didn't feel that it was. The year I was there he got in a whole lot of trouble. An atheist girl took some of the material home to show to her parents and they went ballistic. He was outta there next year. He had district funding and he was doing this sort of thing in a small scale for quite a while . It turned out he was a minister ... I have no idea what the school was thinking. The rest of his class was excellent. Overall I didn't even care ... other than that one month his class was fantastic. Plus ... I thought critically about a lot of what he gave us to read in that month and disagreed on everything pretty much. Last edited by Lexander; 2007-05-22 at 13:41. |
|
|
|