AnimeSuki Forums

momobunny · 2009-08-03, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by June 1983

Speaking of the sin, by the way -- this may be kind of obvious, but:

This is awfully similar to what Beato says to Battler when he can't tell her what his sin is.

Yeah that's the first thing that came to my mind when I read that part of EP4. :3

Ithekro · 2009-08-03, 23:35

Are you saying that his sin is that he forgot?

Vangrim · 2009-08-04, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Are you saying that his sin is that he forgot?

Now that would be lame.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-04, 07:57

I always had this idea that Battler forgot a promise, and he broke that promise the very moment he relinquished his family name which caused him to not going to Rokkenjima for the next six years. Someone on Rokkenjima must have waited for him to come, but not only he didn't come he completely forgot the promise. I think this is a very likely possibility.

@Unconfirmed's theory

If I am metaBattler, is metaAnge my little sister?

Quote:

The witch before your eyes stole my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...!

Rei-Tenshi · 2009-08-04, 09:40

If there is somebody going around as Ushiromiya Maria (the one who wrote the letters in the bottle), would that be a possible loophole to solve the killings in the various episodes? I mean, we've seen arguments where the red text has loopholes when people take on another name (Kinzo, Kanon).

Ex., in EP1 "Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!".
What if Maria2 (who could have shot them from the hallway), did it?

And I remember that Kinzo didn't want Rosa naming her daughter "Maria".
Maybe this is a hint?

unconfirmed · 2009-08-04, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I always had this idea that Battler forgot a promise, and he broke that promise the very moment he relinquished his family name which caused him to not going to Rokkenjima for the next six years. Someone on Rokkenjima must have waited for him to come, but not only he didn't come he completely forgot the promise. I think this is a very likely possibility.

@Unconfirmed's theory

If I am metaBattler, is metaAnge my little sister?

Yes, it's said in red by meta-Battler "Ange is, ......my little sister."

Anyways, this is a story after all, there has to limitations on your participation in it. Think about those RPGs, while it might allow a certain amount of freedom with your character, there still has to be a structure to bind your existence to that character. In other words, you can't have absolute freedom with your in-game avatar. You have no influence over your past or even the number of choices you can make or the endings that you will get. It's a trick used to make you feel as if you're immersed while only being knee-deep.

I do not disagree that you, the real-life you, do not have a sister named Ange (well maybe you do..but w/e). But it's impossible to insert "you" into this game unless the in-game character defines "you". That's obviously impossible, because Ryukishi07 doesn't stalk everybody who plays his games. So, instead, he uses techniques to get a predictable reaction of his players and replicate them with meta-Battler. Instead of using a unique character for each and everyone of you, he made each and everyone of you into one single character.

Of course, one thing he cannot replicate is your past. So, he just did what most RPG stories do. He created a fictional past for you and let you take over some time during the start of the game. Except everything is revealed to you in a nonlinear fashion, thus, causing the confusion.

Here's a "possible" scenario in chronological order.

-meta-Battler was once Maria's brother
-meta-Battler died but continued to exist inside Maria
-Ushiromiya Battler perhaps was the one who was responsible for meta-Battler's death, therefore he sinned
-after Sakutarou's death, Maria stopped believing in magic and ditched her alliance with Beatrice, the power behind Maria's creations. In other words, she stopped "loving"
-without love, meta-Battler loses himself and becomes a shell
-in Ep 1, you take over as meta-Battler and naturally assume the appearance of Ushiromiya Battler
-you are now equally as clueless about your identity as meta-Battler and become the same person

-of course, Maria probably survives the ordeal with Eva and loses her memories for some reason
-Eva creates the identity meta-Ange for Maria
-everything that happens after, you should already know

maximilianjenus · 2009-08-04, 11:31

Dunno, I still think that the second battler is the reason why kanon has not said his real name; that is, kanon is asumu's son. somethign really weird must have happened 6 years ago, for the whoel mess with rudolf's kids to happen.

Leinne · 2009-08-04, 16:13

It's something I've been thinking since episode one because I thought it was strange apart from it's symbolic interpretation in the game against Beato.

I thought of a theory about crest and Battler. Everyone has a one-winged eagle on their left side of the clothes pointing left (in Jessica and Eva's case, it seems it's pointing the other way because it's on their sleeves) even Ronove and Virgilia (I can't see it in Gaap's). The odd thing is that Battler has it the other way around, left side pointing left.

This could be either:
- He was borned out of the marriage and is his mark of disgrace, even if his parents married after him being borned

- Another one, it's a mark of disgrace because he left the family six years ago

- And taking tht further, because he was disinherited because of leaving the family, he never say, after all, that he is 8th rank, we just suppose since he sits where he's used too, and that could be since Ange is not there and the servants didn't brought another chair.

Maybe it's not important, but I've always found that really odd.

maximilianjenus · 2009-08-04, 16:32

maybe it is because his tachi-e is the only one facing right.

Squirrellord · 2009-08-04, 17:16

It's been awhile since I posted here, and I haven't looked through the thread here to see if it's been mentioned yet, but I have a new theory on the epitaph~

Spoiler for Episode 4 spoilers:

When was the Epitaph written? 2 years before the start of the series, so 1984. When was the construction of the guesthouse? 1984.
Now then, what's interesting is this: Why would Kinzo allow Krauss to build a resort hotel on BEATRICE'S island? An Island where only the Ushiromiya Family and their close friends can come... why would Kinzo allow a tourist attraction to be built there? Short answer is he wouldn't. Kinzo died in 1984. Krauss used this opportunity (I'm not saying he killed Kinzo) to start his expansion of Rokkenjima.
So, assuming that Kinzo died in 1984, the same year that the Epitaph is displayed in the hall, we can assume that the Epitaph is Kinzo's will. This is a pretty common idea.
A lot of people are assuming that Krauss, Natsuhi, and the servants are part of a conspiracy to cover up Kinzo's death... but what if it's not a conspiracy? If Kinzo had time to write a will, he knew he was going to die. He could have given more orders. In particular to Genji and Nanjo, he told them to perform his final necessitates and to take care of things for him when he's gone. Kinzo is buried on Rokkenjima, and for arguments sake on the shore where Beatrice died.
In other words, Kinzo himself is the Key that the epitaph speaks of! Nanjo and Genji act as the 2 mentioned.
Now, about Krauss and Natsuhi... perhaps they found out about Kinzo's death somehow, and are now honoring his wishes. Natsuhi and Krauss are the only ones to "see" Kinzo in his study who are not servants. We can assume that this is actually them going to check on instructions or rules left by Kinzo for them/Genji to carry out in such situations.

In summary, Kinzo is the key the epitaph speaks of. He's buried on the shore where Beatrice fell to her death. When you find him, there'll be more instructions to follow which lead to the next steps towards getting the gold.

... Of course, there's a problem with this idea. Kinzo's body shows up burned in every game. However, if we assume that the killer has found the body beforehand, or even that night, then everything is fine.

TTR · 2009-08-04, 23:53

Remember Squirrel, the answer to the riddle isn't something that complex or metaphorical. Remember Eva-Beato when Eva was solving the epitaph?

The answer to the epitaph is definitely something in a book of sorts. Something to do with the sea and a family tree. 海まで、家系図

Squirrellord · 2009-08-05, 02:38

But then you just have to wonder what, exactly, of episode 3 was real? Did Eva actually solve the epitaph, or did Beatrice just make it look like she did?
By all accounts, when Eva solved it, the murders should have stopped, and Beatrice should have lost all of her power (which she didn't. She feigned it. She easily revived and killed Maria and Rosa, but then later had so much trouble with Shannon). It's possible that the gold wasn't found in 3. Who knows.

Tyabann · 2009-08-05, 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

She feigned it.

She only came up with the idea of faking stuff AFTER Eva-Beato showed up.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-08-05, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

She only came up with the idea of faking stuff AFTER Eva-Beato showed up.

Not exactly. She never says when she started showing bullshit to Battler, and considering the way Battler chewed her out before the start of Ep3 it's fairly possible the entire Ep3 itself is the mindfuck.

Tyabann · 2009-08-05, 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Not exactly. She never says when she started showing bullshit to Battler, and considering the way Battler chewed her out before the start of Ep3 it's fairly possible the entire Ep3 itself is the mindfuck.

Well, didn't Virgilia give her the idea to use sympathy as a means to convince Battler that witches exist?

I think we can assume that's when she REALLY started fucking with him, although it's clear that Eva-Beatrice isn't truly as powerful as she should be.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-08-05, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, didn't Virgilia give her the idea to use sympathy as a means to convince Battler that witches exist?

I think we can assume that's when she REALLY started fucking with him, although it's clear that Eva-Beatrice isn't truly as powerful as she should be.

Well yeah Virgilia is the centerpiece of her massive mindfuck but considering that Virgilia's entire existence in Ep3 was necessitated by Beato as shown at the end, it's possible that she's been fucking (mentally speaking

) with Battler even before Virgilia became his "ally", and she may have already figured out to use sympathy to win Battler over before using Virgilia to make it look like it was taught to her.

Or maybe Ep3 never really existed and it was all in our heads.

I need a beer.

Tyabann · 2009-08-05, 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I need a beer.

When the eventual reaction to a mindfuck plot is this, you know it has succeeded.

MeoTwister5 · 2009-08-05, 04:44

Honestly if Battler was pulling a few down while duelling Beato instead of Ronove's damn tea he might have faired better.

rogerpepitone · 2009-08-05, 08:20

Eva-Beatrice was killing and reviving Rosa. (Maria was never revived.) Also, Rosa was revived immediately after her death; Shannon had been dead the better part of the day before she was revived.

Kamar · 2009-08-05, 08:29

It doesn't make sense to say that Virgilia teaching her to use sympathy was something staged for Battler--he didn't see that happen, or he'd have been suspicious all along. I find it hard to tell what she faked and what she didn't in EP3, although the fact that she showed her colors before Battler completely lost has its own implications.

2009-08-03, 23:35	Link #3122
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Are you saying that his sin is that he forgot? __________________

2009-08-05, 04:44	Link #3138
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	Honestly if Battler was pulling a few down while duelling Beato instead of Ronove's damn tea he might have faired better. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-08-04, 09:40	Link #3125
Rei-Tenshi Member Join Date: Feb 2009	If there is somebody going around as Ushiromiya Maria (the one who wrote the letters in the bottle), would that be a possible loophole to solve the killings in the various episodes? I mean, we've seen arguments where the red text has loopholes when people take on another name (Kinzo, Kanon). Ex., in EP1 "Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them!". What if Maria2 (who could have shot them from the hallway), did it? And I remember that Kinzo didn't want Rosa naming her daughter "Maria". Maybe this is a hint?

2009-08-04, 11:31	Link #3127
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	Dunno, I still think that the second battler is the reason why kanon has not said his real name; that is, kanon is asumu's son. somethign really weird must have happened 6 years ago, for the whoel mess with rudolf's kids to happen.

2009-08-04, 16:13	Link #3128
Leinne Who... am I? Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Zaragoza, Spain Age: 32	It's something I've been thinking since episode one because I thought it was strange apart from it's symbolic interpretation in the game against Beato. I thought of a theory about crest and Battler. Everyone has a one-winged eagle on their left side of the clothes pointing left (in Jessica and Eva's case, it seems it's pointing the other way because it's on their sleeves) even Ronove and Virgilia (I can't see it in Gaap's). The odd thing is that Battler has it the other way around, left side pointing left. This could be either: - He was borned out of the marriage and is his mark of disgrace, even if his parents married after him being borned - Another one, it's a mark of disgrace because he left the family six years ago - And taking tht further, because he was disinherited because of leaving the family, he never say, after all, that he is 8th rank, we just suppose since he sits where he's used too, and that could be since Ange is not there and the servants didn't brought another chair. Maybe it's not important, but I've always found that really odd.

2009-08-04, 16:32	Link #3129
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	maybe it is because his tachi-e is the only one facing right.

2009-08-04, 17:16	Link #3130
Squirrellord Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	It's been awhile since I posted here, and I haven't looked through the thread here to see if it's been mentioned yet, but I have a new theory on the epitaph~ Spoiler for Episode 4 spoilers: When was the Epitaph written? 2 years before the start of the series, so 1984. When was the construction of the guesthouse? 1984. Now then, what's interesting is this: Why would Kinzo allow Krauss to build a resort hotel on BEATRICE'S island? An Island where only the Ushiromiya Family and their close friends can come... why would Kinzo allow a tourist attraction to be built there? Short answer is he wouldn't. Kinzo died in 1984. Krauss used this opportunity (I'm not saying he killed Kinzo) to start his expansion of Rokkenjima. So, assuming that Kinzo died in 1984, the same year that the Epitaph is displayed in the hall, we can assume that the Epitaph is Kinzo's will. This is a pretty common idea. A lot of people are assuming that Krauss, Natsuhi, and the servants are part of a conspiracy to cover up Kinzo's death... but what if it's not a conspiracy? If Kinzo had time to write a will, he knew he was going to die. He could have given more orders. In particular to Genji and Nanjo, he told them to perform his final necessitates and to take care of things for him when he's gone. Kinzo is buried on Rokkenjima, and for arguments sake on the shore where Beatrice died. In other words, Kinzo himself is the Key that the epitaph speaks of! Nanjo and Genji act as the 2 mentioned. Now, about Krauss and Natsuhi... perhaps they found out about Kinzo's death somehow, and are now honoring his wishes. Natsuhi and Krauss are the only ones to "see" Kinzo in his study who are not servants. We can assume that this is actually them going to check on instructions or rules left by Kinzo for them/Genji to carry out in such situations. In summary, Kinzo is the key the epitaph speaks of. He's buried on the shore where Beatrice fell to her death. When you find him, there'll be more instructions to follow which lead to the next steps towards getting the gold. ... Of course, there's a problem with this idea. Kinzo's body shows up burned in every game. However, if we assume that the killer has found the body beforehand, or even that night, then everything is fine.

2009-08-04, 23:53	Link #3131
TTR 受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ Join Date: Apr 2009	Remember Squirrel, the answer to the riddle isn't something that complex or metaphorical. Remember Eva-Beato when Eva was solving the epitaph? The answer to the epitaph is definitely something in a book of sorts. Something to do with the sea and a family tree. 海まで、家系図

2009-08-05, 02:38	Link #3132
Squirrellord Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	But then you just have to wonder what, exactly, of episode 3 was real? Did Eva actually solve the epitaph, or did Beatrice just make it look like she did? By all accounts, when Eva solved it, the murders should have stopped, and Beatrice should have lost all of her power (which she didn't. She feigned it. She easily revived and killed Maria and Rosa, but then later had so much trouble with Shannon). It's possible that the gold wasn't found in 3. Who knows.

2009-08-05, 08:20	Link #3139
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Eva-Beatrice was killing and reviving Rosa. (Maria was never revived.) Also, Rosa was revived immediately after her death; Shannon had been dead the better part of the day before she was revived.

2009-08-05, 08:29	Link #3140
Kamar Author Wannabe Join Date: Aug 2009	It doesn't make sense to say that Virgilia teaching her to use sympathy was something staged for Battler--he didn't see that happen, or he'd have been suspicious all along. I find it hard to tell what she faked and what she didn't in EP3, although the fact that she showed her colors before Battler completely lost has its own implications.