Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Ithekro]

"At the time of Nanjo's murder, Eva, Battler, Jessica were alive."

There is no "only" in this sentence. There is a chance there is someone else alive other than these three.

The question is....who?

Who else is dead....in red?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

"At the time of Nanjo's murder, Eva, Battler, Jessica were alive."

There is no "only" in this sentence. There is a chance there is someone else alive other than these three.

The question is....who?

Who else is dead....in red?

Rosa, Maria and the 6 1st twilight victims were all confirmed dead in red before EVA's red web attack - therefore they cannot be the killers.

However Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Krauss and Natsuhi are all fair game.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Where did it say that only three people were alive when Nanjo died?

Ok, that's what i doubt also.

So it means: there are more than 18 people on the island but only 18 of them are alive. Assuming no "twins", "super disguise kit" or "fake dying" were used. The only body that was not identified in all the case was Kinzo due to being completely burnt. Actually there's one more: Rosa for not being identified in 1st and 3rd EP, alive in 2nd EP

Conclusion: either Rosa or Kinzo 's likely to be a muderer (at least of Nanjo in this case). But could be not the final culprit

However if Kinzo or Rosa was confirmed dead by that point, then maybe the Kinzo/ Rosa in this anime are not the actual Kinzo/Rosa. SO the real one's dead, when they're still alive

[Marion]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Ok, that's what i doubt also.

So it means: there are more than 18 people on the island but only 18 of them are alive. Assuming no "twins", "super disguise kit" or "fake dying" were used. The only body that was not identified in all the case was Kinzo due to being completely burnt. Actually there's one more: Rosa for not being identified in 1st and 3rd EP, alive in 2nd EP

Conclusion: either Rosa or Kinzo 's likely to be a muderer (at least of Nanjo in this case). But could be not the final culprit

Rosa's body was identified in EP 3 - Rudolf clearly knew it was her and Maria.

[Ithekro]

Was George confirmed dead...in red? If not you have six possible killers:

George, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Krauss and Natsuhi.

But then things get complicated. How and Why? All of these are killed with the Siestas, except Hideyoshi, who's shown to be killed by a floating gun. Makes you wonder a little bit.

[risingstar3110]

I don't know, but using some unknown medicine to fake death would be kind of lame .

I think the body lied there 's difinitely dead. The problem is if that's the real George, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Krauss and Natsuhi.

Maybe some of the adults (and kids) were switched in their childhoods? So for example Jessica real name was actually George and vice versa. They have to change name to fit with the epitaph O_o

PS: how did 34 threaten Beatrice in the final screen in the novel? Considering the tea party in EP 2, i expect it's butchered again this time

[Ithekro]

We've reached that point where it's pretty much "is it confirmed in red? else it might be false" mentality. We know everyone except Eva died in 1986, in this arc. We know Eva thinks she did it. We also know via the red that Eva couldn't have killed at least some of those people. The magic covers up things. The deal now it to pull back the layers to find out if Eva did kill all those people, or if she's just gone crazy and is believing that she killed those people because her mind is gone. Taking on that much guilt and blame...along with stress, ages you. In Eva's case...badly.

However, three games....three different suspects?
Who's suspect in the first arc? Natsuhi? But she's with the children during some of those murders.
Second arc: Rosa? She's with Battler for some of those murders.
Third arc: Eva? But she's with Battler for Nanjo's murder.

The evidence doesn't stack your honor. Something else is going on if there is one actual Truth.

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

PS: how did 34 threaten Beatrice in the final screen in the novel? Considering the tea party in EP 2, i expect it's butchered again this time

Spoiler for game script:

the text itself doesn't show it, but Beato looks pretty terrified here, IMO.

"..................This is why you're useless. There's no need for this to be a game board for you. It's alright if this is a bird cage to lock Bernkastel up here for all eternity.

...What's the role of a bird cage? Making sure the little bird inside certainly never escapes. ......What's a bird cage worth if it has cracks that sometimes let a bird out?"

".........O, of course, games exist for winning. So it is impossible for me to lose. ...Therefore, I will continue to win.........As you wish, for all eternity..."

"Good answer, that's alright. ......I'll allow you to play around and use fakes as part of your tactics. It was sometimes useful in this last game.
............But you know? If you make a move hoping for anything else other than victory, ............at that time, prepare yourself wonderfully, okay?"

"I, I will not do such a thing... I swear it...!"

"............Because originally, you weren't even a witch, and at any time, I'll remind you what a truly shabby creature you were. ............If you betray my expectations. At that time, you can look forward to a fun, fun punishment game.
...In the world of billions of kakera, ......I'll send you into the most miserable kakera and seal you there. .........You were miserable in the first place, so it'll really be worth choosing a miserable kakera.
...*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*."

"........................"

[risingstar3110]

Spoiler for Cornering the culprits....., no spoiler, just to save space:

We can sum up all the deaths in 3 below case. For example, we will take Kinzo to be the actual culprit:

If Kinzo(or anyone) is identified by Battler to be dead, and was stated with "Red truth" as dead. Then the only possible way for Kinzo to be culprit is if he have an exact duplicate body and actually is not named Kinzo.

But if Kinzo is not yet identified dead (his whole body 's burned beyond recognise- leave out the toes in this case), but was stated in "red truth" to be dead. Then as long as the he's an imposer (who's not named Kinzo), he could find a random body to fake his death.

If Kinzo is identified to be dead by Battler but was not confirmed by "red truth" (for e.g. the case of Hideyoshi this episode). Then either the one lie there's not dead, or was not the real Kinzo.

Sum up, as no one could live in all 3 worlds, there are only 3 options for the culprit to satisfy all "red word" :
- something in each world made a member of the family kill everyone and survive till the end. So there's no certain culprit in all world. It can't apply to the Nanjo's case this episode
- the culprit can somehow fake that he's dead but he still alive
- the culprit is not the actual person the 18 people on this island knows. An impostor. He can avoid "red truth" because he's not the person started in "red truth"

@desirebluesky: thank there ^^

PS: If you have it, may i have the part where 34 say she loves Berns and will ensure she's locked up? xD

[Chadauw]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

PS: how did 34 threaten Beatrice in the final screen in the novel? Considering the tea party in EP 2, i expect it's butchered again this time

Spoiler for Well...:

*insert miragecoordinator*

Like this.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Spoiler for Cornering the culprits....., no spoiler, just to save space:

We can sum up all the deaths in 3 below case. For example, we will take Kinzo to be the actual culprit:

If Kinzo(or anyone) is identified by Battler to be dead, and was stated with "Red truth" as dead. Then the only possible way for Kinzo to be culprit is if he have an exact duplicate body and actually is not named Kinzo.

But if Kinzo is not yet identified dead (his whole body 's burned beyond recognise- leave out the toes in this case), but was stated in "red truth" to be dead. Then as long as the he's an imposer (who's not named Kinzo), he could find a random body to fake his death.

If Kinzo is identified to be dead by Battler but was not confirmed by "red truth" (for e.g. the case of Hideyoshi this episode). Then either the one lie there's not dead, or was not the real Kinzo.

Sum up, as no one could live in all 3 worlds, there are only 3 options for the culprit to satisfy all "red word" :
- something in each world made a member of the family kill everyone and survive till the end. It can't apply to the Nanjo's case this episode
- the culprit can somehow fake his death
- the culprit is not the actual person the 18 people on this island knows

@desirebluesky: thank there ^^

Your ideas are good, but you're thinking too much along the lines of the red truth. After all, how could the culprit have knowledge of the meta-world?

Flip the chessboard over. Figure out how the red truth could be used to twist a negative into a positive.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Your ideas are good, but you're thinking too much along the lines of the red truth. After all, how could the culprit have knowledge of the meta-world?

Flip the chessboard over. Figure out how the red truth could be used to twist a negative into a positive.

I thought about that. But maybe the culprit tried to hide something , and it 's (accidentally or not) the same result with the "red truth".

For example, Kinzo could just fake his death so he can construct a close room, instead to satisfy the red truth.

Or we can look at it in another way: the red truth was constructed to make the most mystery out of everything.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I think the body lied there 's difinitely dead. The problem is if that's the real George, Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Krauss and Natsuhi.

Think about it like this: Of those people whose corpses we have seen, where is the proof that they are actually dead?

Nanjo's confirmation? Who says that Nanjo wasn't lying?

Another alternative way to think about this is to look at their injuries...

[chronotrig]

Just for completeness and accuracy's sake, the anime version of EP3 only declares Rosa's, Maria's, and Nanjo's deaths in red (oh, and Beatrice 19 years ago).

For the first six, it only says that they weren't killed by a trap and that no one committed suicide, I think...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Just for completeness and accuracy's sake, the anime version of EP3 only declares Rosa's, Maria's, and Nanjo's deaths in red (oh, and Beatrice 19 years ago).

For the first six, it only says that they weren't killed by a trap and that no one committed suicide, I think...

From the game:

Spoiler for During 1st twilight battle:

Beatrice says- "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"

[Shamisen]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler for Review:

-They botched Eva's crazy eyes.

I could care less about everything else, I knew they would screw those things up. But Eva looks -100% less creepy than she did originally.

I kinda agree with you there. I mean, it was a nice try and I still loved that scene. But I too preferred her face in the VN.

What also bugged me a bit was Beatrice and Virgilia's faces. I expected their expressions to be subtle evil looking, not crazy in your face insane evil. Also, too much fish-eye effects. I really did love this episode though. Each Episode's ending just gets better and better is all I can say.

[gunrik]

Episode is perfect, it just get more and more mysterious, never thought i would see an anime like this, but i watched too many episodes at once and got a headache, for trying to help battler, too much thought in it :P.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Marion

From the game:

Spoiler for During 1st twilight battle:

Beatrice says- "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"

Spoiler for VN but not important:

Yeah, I know, I translated that line
But it isn't in the anime version, and that's what I was talking about.

[Marion]

Yeah it's odd that the anime did leave that out. I can't see why :V;;

[KoiYuki]

I'm kind of wondering if maybe Battler said something to Eva like, "Hey, I'll kill someone too, and we can both be guilty, but please just let me go home to Ange." I know it's a little out there, but who knows?

On another note, I got some nice pan screenshots for you guys~.

Spoiler for Siestas:

Spoiler for Beato:

Spoiler for Ange:

Ange's was the hardest to put together.