AnimeSuki Forums

potchip · 2012-07-11, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Guys, how much do you think will the story change if the TSFs are not giant mechas?

Funnily enough, not all that much I reckon. Wasn't muv-luv mostly about the story/romance? Girls can be pilots, too. But then again it would be pretty crappy battle scenes with the 'zoom' and either explosion beneath or above...

Candyshark · 2012-07-11, 21:23

But shouldn't both human and natural resources become scares especially with BETA presence? They are not made from thin air and tin cans.

SolarAquarion · 2012-07-11, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmatterx76

Dunno if I can ask this question of if that would lead to a spoiler but I'll give it a shot.

I thought I remember the general info saying something about a joint project in Alaska between the US and Russia (thx for another show forgetting that theres this country call Canada right there too btw) but from the map that showed the BETA invasion I thought Russia was already overrun? It ep 2 they did say that the mainland had fallen.

Spoiler for Muv Luv:

potchip · 2012-07-11, 21:34

Which makes it more imperitive that limited resources be expended responsibly, right?

We are getting some indication of the cost of fielding a unit - couple years of training, the machines themselves, support staff.

So what's the typical contribution of a TSF on the field of battle? 10? 100 BETAs? How many will be required to make the overall investment a meaningful exercise?

Miraluka · 2012-07-11, 21:55

Any reference about who is USA president in this series?

Wild Goose · 2012-07-11, 22:06

Also, don't forget pilot training costs - i was quoted a figue ten years ago that it cost the USN 2 million dollars to train a pilot. Sure, you could skimp on training, but then you end up withncannon fodder like Yui's flight, and this isn't a war where you can afford to use cannon fodder.

Also, i have to wonder if part of the problems the Imperial Japanese were having during the Fall of Kyoto is due to the fact that for the most part, their forces are using 1st-gen TSFs, while the rest of the industrialised world is using primarily 2nd-gen ans 2.5 gen TSFs, and working hard to field 3rs Gen TSFs in large numbers (IIRC the Type-94 Shiranui was the first 3rd gen TSF, but the F-22 is deployed in larger numbers).

Marcus H. · 2012-07-11, 22:23

That's what I was wondering about. Japan is severely trying to take out these BETA like all the other countries, but with their current tech, they'll just end up with more BETA fodder and less money.

potchip · 2012-07-11, 22:35

Biggest factor, from history in winning a war is the prevailing doctrine and it's fit to the usage. The doctrine is an envolving beast and often times lags behind the technologies. The factors that won US the pacific war was a combination of specific technology - radar + decoding, tactics - squad flying manuvures that maximizes advantages and expose enemy's weaknesses, and strategic - the organisation of of task forces around navel strike power, rather than the outdated doctrine of battleships (surface action) and airpower as support.

If it costs $ dollars to train a pilot, then what's the marginal return on training the pilot an extra $ dollars in terms of survivability? If the answer is 'x minutues', then it makes sense to go make more babies rather than spending a couple years + $ for a couple extra minutes.

Yuutsu · 2012-07-11, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Anyway couldn't they just built mechas that has laser deflecting capabilities?

Same reason why we haven't found a cure for cancer. Not exactly easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

or fight laser with laser?

Spoiler for Can you Luv the Muv?:

NoemiChan · 2012-07-11, 22:51

Its seems the only effective armament for now are naval guns. The BETA can't attack since they're out on sea and can use mountains as natural shield against lasers. Why won't they just strengthened these advantages while trying to improve more their TSFs.

LystAP · 2012-07-11, 22:51

Upon further observation of the Unlimited/Alternative universe, I have began to speculate that one of the largest factors behind the BETA's success, and the state of humanity, is that the latter seems to be unable to stop killing themselves.

In many other stories with similar premises, you usually find humanity united under a common banner; with a unified chain of command and military structure.

Not in Muv Luv; the UN appears lucky to be able to acquire any form of resources, the only reason why anyone supports the UN is because notions of nationalistic and cultural pride have been proven to be quite ineffective against the BETA, and in the Unlimited Day After, the UN is completely abandoned.

Everyone seems to act as if they beat the BETA on Earth, they could go right back to the Cold War; the US even dumped a TSF designed to fight BETA in favor of a TSF designed to fight other TSFs, who knows what the Soviet Union is doing.

Wild Goose · 2012-07-11, 23:03

To an extent, throughout the series, it does seem as though the Americans are a bit better at the whole business of fighting BETA compared to the Japs, what with the use of terrain and tactics. The larger industrial base, as well as the wholescale deployment of the teen fighter series of TSFs, doesn't hurt any.

To put things in perspective, the Shiranui is apparently a limited production model assigned to aces. The F-22 is assigned to battlions.

In all fairness to the F-22, it is good at fighting BETA - it's just that it's also very good at fighting TSFs. Making a God Mode Sue was the whole point of Advanced Tactical Fighter program IRL as well.

YaminoSeigi · 2012-07-11, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candyshark

But shouldn't both human and natural resources become scares especially with BETA presence? They are not made from thin air and tin cans.

In the VN, TSF production are still manageable though the Uranium used for the 36 mm ammo are depleting. In TDA apparently food rations become relatively serious problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Its seems the only effective armament for now are naval guns. The BETA can't attack since they're out on sea and can use mountains as natural shield against lasers. Why won't they just strengthened these advantages while trying to improve more their TSFs.

Can battleships hold the line of BETA? no and they would be the target of Laser class if there are no TSF. Artilery support deals the heavier damage to BETA but they need TSF to cover them from BETA direct assault where they will be defenseless once the TSF squad annilihated.

LystAP · 2012-07-11, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

To an extent, throughout the series, it does seem as though the Americans are a bit better at the whole business of fighting BETA compared to the Japs, what with the use of terrain and tactics. The larger industrial base, as well as the wholescale deployment of the teen fighter series of TSFs, doesn't hurt any.

To put things in perspective, the Shiranui is apparently a limited production model assigned to aces. The F-22 is assigned to battlions.

In all fairness to the F-22, it is good at fighting BETA - it's just that it's also very good at fighting TSFs. Making a God Mode Sue was the whole point of Advanced Tactical Fighter program IRL as well.

They may be better, but it doesn't look like that's helping the global struggle.

NoemiChan · 2012-07-11, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by YaminoSeigi

Can battleships hold the line of BETA? no and they would be the target of Laser class if there are no TSF. Artilery support deals the heavier damage to BETA but they need TSF to cover them from BETA direct assault where they will be defenseless once the TSF squad annilihated.

At least they could somehow slow down an advance. And did I mentioned natural barriers/shield. Laser class do have a farther range but if the path is block by a mountain. It would be useless. This is where naval guns has the advantage coz shells fly in an arc crossing mountains. And how could a TSF cover for the navy. They are food for the Laser Class.

YaminoSeigi · 2012-07-11, 23:40

BETA would traverse anykind of land terrain if they are given enough time and what's the worst scenario for Battleship? Fort class coming out of nowhere carrying Laser class with them and engage for direct battle. Also Battleship's cannon can be also shot down by Laser class

TSF halts or prevent the BETA from breaking the defensive line where they mainly engage Grappler, Destroyer or tank class which provide them natural cover against Laser class unless they fly too high. They also serve as Decoy to certain extent as they become high priority target for BETA which at least allow the artilery shells not to be shot down much. If the line is broken, BETA could even deploy their forces beyond the line which Laser class may even be deployed.

Cosmic Eagle · 2012-07-11, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

That's what I was wondering about. Japan is severely trying to take out these BETA like all the other countries, but with their current tech, they'll just end up with more BETA fodder and less money.

It's not just that...BETA are like Tyranids...there's enough of them to overrun the galaxy let alone Earth...if they all landed no amount of tech you can possibly have will help.

Unless you pull a Gunbuster style Black Hole bomb or something...

Firefly00 · 2012-07-11, 23:54

Even without having seen/read the source material, this thread is interesting enough already... and has the side-effect of heightening anticipation for Firaxis' X-COM resurrection; thanks so much for that.

Wild Goose · 2012-07-12, 00:08

It's kinda like Starship Troopers the movie: we're all really hosed.

Also, unfortunately for what good the Americans can do, they can't be everywhere and saving the day: the Theodore Roosevelt sorties her Tomcats (Jolly Rogers ftw) and the rest of her air wing, but they won't be enough to turn the tide. But it's a brave gesture.

And rather refreshing, compared to common portrayals of Americans in anime.

Silvance · 2012-07-12, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Unless you pull a Gunbuster style Black Hole bomb or something...

Hah. It'd be nice if mankind can produce something like that.

but wow. I didn't know the Type-94 is the first 3rd generation TSF in the world... D:

As for America, I like how they managed to keep being on the lead when it comes to TSF development and not Japan. It's unfortunate that the latter beat them in creating the first 3rd gen TSF, but at least the Black Widow and Raptors turned out better in the end. lol.

Still, the Type-0 is still the number one in my book when it comes to design. <3

2012-07-11, 22:06	Link #46
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	Also, don't forget pilot training costs - i was quoted a figue ten years ago that it cost the USN 2 million dollars to train a pilot. Sure, you could skimp on training, but then you end up withncannon fodder like Yui's flight, and this isn't a war where you can afford to use cannon fodder. Also, i have to wonder if part of the problems the Imperial Japanese were having during the Fall of Kyoto is due to the fact that for the most part, their forces are using 1st-gen TSFs, while the rest of the industrialised world is using primarily 2nd-gen ans 2.5 gen TSFs, and working hard to field 3rs Gen TSFs in large numbers (IIRC the Type-94 Shiranui was the first 3rd gen TSF, but the F-22 is deployed in larger numbers). __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2012-07-11, 22:23	Link #47
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	That's what I was wondering about. Japan is severely trying to take out these BETA like all the other countries, but with their current tech, they'll just end up with more BETA fodder and less money. __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2012-07-11, 23:03	Link #52
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	To an extent, throughout the series, it does seem as though the Americans are a bit better at the whole business of fighting BETA compared to the Japs, what with the use of terrain and tactics. The larger industrial base, as well as the wholescale deployment of the teen fighter series of TSFs, doesn't hurt any. To put things in perspective, the Shiranui is apparently a limited production model assigned to aces. The F-22 is assigned to battlions. In all fairness to the F-22, it is good at fighting BETA - it's just that it's also very good at fighting TSFs. Making a God Mode Sue was the whole point of Advanced Tactical Fighter program IRL as well. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2012-07-11, 23:40	Link #56
YaminoSeigi Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	BETA would traverse anykind of land terrain if they are given enough time and what's the worst scenario for Battleship? Fort class coming out of nowhere carrying Laser class with them and engage for direct battle. Also Battleship's cannon can be also shot down by Laser class TSF halts or prevent the BETA from breaking the defensive line where they mainly engage Grappler, Destroyer or tank class which provide them natural cover against Laser class unless they fly too high. They also serve as Decoy to certain extent as they become high priority target for BETA which at least allow the artilery shells not to be shot down much. If the line is broken, BETA could even deploy their forces beyond the line which Laser class may even be deployed. __________________ Last edited by YaminoSeigi; 2012-07-11 at 23:51.

2012-07-11, 23:54	Link #58
Firefly00 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006	Even without having seen/read the source material, this thread is interesting enough already... and has the side-effect of heightening anticipation for Firaxis' X-COM resurrection; thanks so much for that. __________________ White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts "Destroyed overnight, or the next one's free." Arc Nova

2012-07-11, 21:23	Link #42
Candyshark Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	But shouldn't both human and natural resources become scares especially with BETA presence? They are not made from thin air and tin cans.

2012-07-11, 21:34	Link #44
potchip Senior Member Join Date: May 2007	Which makes it more imperitive that limited resources be expended responsibly, right? We are getting some indication of the cost of fielding a unit - couple years of training, the machines themselves, support staff. So what's the typical contribution of a TSF on the field of battle? 10? 100 BETAs? How many will be required to make the overall investment a meaningful exercise?

2012-07-11, 21:55	Link #45
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	Any reference about who is USA president in this series?

2012-07-11, 22:35	Link #48
potchip Senior Member Join Date: May 2007	Biggest factor, from history in winning a war is the prevailing doctrine and it's fit to the usage. The doctrine is an envolving beast and often times lags behind the technologies. The factors that won US the pacific war was a combination of specific technology - radar + decoding, tactics - squad flying manuvures that maximizes advantages and expose enemy's weaknesses, and strategic - the organisation of of task forces around navel strike power, rather than the outdated doctrine of battleships (surface action) and airpower as support. If it costs $ dollars to train a pilot, then what's the marginal return on training the pilot an extra $ dollars in terms of survivability? If the answer is 'x minutues', then it makes sense to go make more babies rather than spending a couple years + $ for a couple extra minutes.

2012-07-11, 22:51	Link #50
NoemiChan Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Philippines Age: 36	Its seems the only effective armament for now are naval guns. The BETA can't attack since they're out on sea and can use mountains as natural shield against lasers. Why won't they just strengthened these advantages while trying to improve more their TSFs.

2012-07-11, 22:51	Link #51
LystAP Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Upon further observation of the Unlimited/Alternative universe, I have began to speculate that one of the largest factors behind the BETA's success, and the state of humanity, is that the latter seems to be unable to stop killing themselves. In many other stories with similar premises, you usually find humanity united under a common banner; with a unified chain of command and military structure. Not in Muv Luv; the UN appears lucky to be able to acquire any form of resources, the only reason why anyone supports the UN is because notions of nationalistic and cultural pride have been proven to be quite ineffective against the BETA, and in the Unlimited Day After, the UN is completely abandoned. Everyone seems to act as if they beat the BETA on Earth, they could go right back to the Cold War; the US even dumped a TSF designed to fight BETA in favor of a TSF designed to fight other TSFs, who knows what the Soviet Union is doing.

2012-07-12, 00:08	Link #59
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	It's kinda like Starship Troopers the movie: we're all really hosed. Also, unfortunately for what good the Americans can do, they can't be everywhere and saving the day: the Theodore Roosevelt sorties her Tomcats (Jolly Rogers ftw) and the rest of her air wing, but they won't be enough to turn the tide. But it's a brave gesture. And rather refreshing, compared to common portrayals of Americans in anime. __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)