Itazura na Kiss

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Babbito

Agreed. In a certain other episode thread there's a lot of cheering about an "epic slap" to "snap someone out of their hysteria" which is somehow okay because it's a girl slapping another girl (actually because a lot of people are hating on the one character).

Um, the situation was totally different in the series you're talking about. Plus the the girl that did the slapping immediately pulled the other into a hug and told her how strong and amazing she was. I must have missed the part where Naoki did that this episode.

One was honestly a slap to calm someone down, the other was something untoward concerning a girl totally justifiably at the end of her rope concerning her husband.

[MikiMata]

Originally Posted by Babbito

Agreed. In a certain other episode thread there's a lot of cheering about an "epic slap" to "snap someone out of their hysteria" which is somehow okay because it's a girl slapping another girl (actually because a lot of people are hating on the one character).

Double standards much? Anyway, at least Naoki looks shocked by his own actions and I think he was trying to apologize as she ran off. And didn't Kotoko slap Naoki in an earlier episode? I seem to recall everyone was totally fine with that and cheering her on because it was "deserved."

I can't remember Kotoko ever slapping Irie. Someone will have to refresh my memory on that one.

I'm not a fan of slapping people out of hysteria under any circumstances, actually. Thankfully, I've never been slapped in the face, but I can't imagine it having a "calming effect" on me. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Irie grabbed and restrained Kotoko when she threw the books at him; that was perfectly appropriate and justified. However, at the moment he slapped her, Kotoko was not attacking him physically in any way - she simply said something he didn't like. Irie was not "defending himself" at that time. Also, in my opinion, throwing a book at someone is rather less personal than striking them with your hand.

I'm not saying that Irie slapping Kotoko is somehow unforgivable or totally outrageous given the circumstances; but, considering that the entire situation was caused by Irie himself (ie, ignoring and avoiding Kotoko out of jealousy), I believe he should have apologized.

[Ultenth]

I think he was on the verge of apologizing when she ran out, but by then it was too late.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by MikiMata

I
I'm not a fan of slapping people out of hysteria under any circumstances, actually.

I'm strictly against people slapping each other across the face, period. That kind of behaviour should be long get in history by now yet it still happens and I know for a fact that a slap can then lead to punches being thrown

Kotoko did lose it during that "emotional scene" ever since she started throwing books. But whilst she was in the wrong, Irie also did a wrong by slapping her when he should have. Slapping someone does not calm them down, for God's sakes >.>

But I guess in a fight, anything goes. I'm not putting blame on anyone because they are both in the wrong. Kotoko needs to talk more like an adult (which she isn't despite being how old again?) and Irie needs to listen like an adult.

As for guys slapping girls and girls slapping guys, I think neither are right. But I do believe that guys should be more gentleman-like and stick to the rule that "guys shouldn't hit girls"...well...depending on the situation. I often see some rowdy trouble making girl teen mobs on the streets deserving off an ass kicking.

[Babbito]

Originally Posted by musouka

Um, the situation was totally different in the series you're talking about. Plus the the girl that did the slapping immediately pulled the other into a hug and told her how strong and amazing she was. I must have missed the part where Naoki did that this episode.

I'm not saying it wasn't a different situation; I just threw that example out because it was something recent. I should have probably wracked my brain for a closer example. I'm just saying that there was a lot of talk about how awesome that scene was compared to the scene here, and really, while the aftermath of that other scene was really good, I think both slaps were unnecessary. Couldn't we have gotten by with just pulling the first girl into an embrace? Is it okay to hit someone if you immediately follow that up with comforting words (not, mind you, an apology)? And she never said she was strong, just that she understood her and that she had an amazing ability. Nothing about her being strong.

Really, I'm NOT saying it's okay to hit women, children, men, or animals. I'm saying if it's wrong in one situation it should be wrong in all situations OR if you think it can be justifiable sometimes then you shouldn't instantly dismiss it as man hits woman = bad. You have to look at it in context.

And really, I think that if Naoki had slapped her and then pulled her into a hug and said something immediately afterwards about how she was wonderful and he needed her, it would have come off as even worse. Like because he said that it was okay that he slapped her. Either way, even if he had done that, I don't really think the people with the opinion that a man hitting a woman = automatically bad would be swayed. Otherwise it's a pretty weak opinion?

Originally Posted by musouka

One was honestly a slap to calm someone down, the other was something untoward concerning a girl totally justifiably at the end of her rope concerning her husband.

I'm not saying Kotoko wasn't justifiably at the end of her rope, but no matter how you think of the girl in the other example I gave, she was at the end of her rope too (debatable whether that was justifiable in the given circumstances). And Naoki, at least, perceived it as a "slap to calm someone down" since he even says at the time, "Calm down!" Really, WE know why she's upset, but Naoki, being the emotional and self-centered idiot that he is, is so caught up in his own jealousy that he really doesn't see how badly it's affecting his wife. Is that a problem? Yes!

I'm not saying Naoki's in the right at all in the situation (obviously he's definitely in the wrong), but to him, out of the blue Kotoko just started throwing books at him and screaming and crying after they had a civil (if distant) conversation one minute ago. In the scene he clearly has no clue what just happened. Then she starts yelling things about how he doesn't love her anymore and Keita seriously wants to be with her and said that he didn't love her.

And probably thinking she's gone completely hysterical (I mean, I don't think he has any concept of the fact that she thinks he doesn't love her since he's pretty distant normally and right then he'd probably just said no to her request for a date because he really was busy as opposed to him ignoring her earlier. He seems concerned right before she starts throwing books as he obviously notices something is wrong and says her name. So really, when she starts yelling about him not loving her, he's at the very least confused.), at a loss, he tries to calm her down by slapping her. (Personally, I agree with MikiMata and don't think slapping people to stop hysteria works either and am not really a fan. If I was hysterical and got hit across the face I would probably just start crying harder, but I assume it's used under the basis of "shock treatment." That is to say, the unexpected blow surprises you so much you stop crying. At least, I think that's the theory.) Should he have done that? Yeah, no.

But I DO think he was trying to apologize and if she hadn't run out of the room they might have been able to have a real talk. That's what I'm trying to say - the two of them need, desperately, to work on their communication skills. I'm not trying to make excuses for his behavior; I'm just trying to look at the situation from the POVs of both characters.

Originally Posted by MikiMata

I can't remember Kotoko ever slapping Irie. Someone will have to refresh my memory on that one.

It was when he recited her love letter in front of everyone and she was upset and slapped him. I grant you I might've have done the same in that situation, but that wasn't the right thing to do either.

Originally Posted by MikiMata

I'm not saying that Irie slapping Kotoko is somehow unforgivable or totally outrageous given the circumstances; but, considering that the entire situation was caused by Irie himself (ie, ignoring and avoiding Kotoko out of jealousy), I believe he should have apologized.

See, yes, here I agree. People do things that are not necessarily justifiable in the heat of the moment, and I do think he should have apologized (for the slap and for his behavior) and I think he was about to when she ran out. Of course, we will never know now, but at the very least he did admit later that the whole situation was caused by him acting out of jealousy. I'm not saying that should give him a free pass or anything or that if he hits her in the future that's okay (it's not). But I DO think he learned his lesson and won't ever react like that again. Though I'm sure he'll do more stupid things in the future. He's learning . . . slowly.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

But I guess in a fight, anything goes. I'm not putting blame on anyone because they are both in the wrong. Kotoko needs to talk more like an adult (which she isn't despite being how old again?) and Irie needs to listen like an adult.

Exactly. If they actually communicated things never would have gotten to this point.

Kotoko: Irie-kun, your recent emotionally distant behavior is upsetting me and you're not treating me well. I'm starting to wonder if you really love me or not. Oh, and by the way, one of my friends is making moves on me.

Naoki: Kotoko, your relationship with that friend of yours is worrying me and I feel strangely irritated and insecure all the time so I've been treating you coldly. But I really do love you and I am sorry for treating you like this and will stop immediately. But who does your friend he think he is, making moves on my wife?!

Kotoko: Yes, I do, in fact, really deserve that apology. Also, I see, you're jealous! Don't worry, I love you and am committed to our marriage. I will make things clear to my friend that I do not want to be in a relationship with him. We'll definitely be happy!

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

As for guys slapping girls and girls slapping guys, I think neither are right. But I do believe that guys should be more gentleman-like and stick to the rule that "guys shouldn't hit girls"...well...depending on the situation. I often see some rowdy trouble making girl teen mobs on the streets deserving off an ass kicking.

Mmm, I guess I just have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this. I'm like those girls in Kenichi who get irritated when Kenichi says he can't fight them. It's like: Quit looking down on us! At the same time, I can respect the fact that other people hold these principles and want to live by them. I mean, women do get brutalized more than men, are generally the ones in high risk situations, and suffer the most (with children) from abusive relationships, so physical violence is not a subject you can treat lightly even if it is in fiction (uh, things like Tom and Jerry aside, I guess). So being raised to respect women as fellow and equal human beings = definitely a good thing. I just get a bit annoyed when certain comments come off as more patronizing and less respectful, even if you guys don't mean for your comments to read that way.

Anyway, I'll, uh, let us all get back on topic and talk about the series now.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Babbito

Really, I'm NOT saying it's okay to hit women, children, men, or animals. I'm saying if it's wrong in one situation it should be wrong in all situations OR if you think it can be justifiable sometimes then you shouldn't instantly dismiss it as man hits woman = bad. You have to look at it in context.

Yes, and the context of one was correct, and the context of one was incorrect. Kotoko was in pain because of Naoki's (in)action, and while he might be emotionally stunted, he knew damn well he was hurting her throughout this arc, and placed his "hurt" above hers. The example you're talking about is melodrama at a terrible time due to a misunderstanding of the situation.

It is about the context. Sometimes people need to be slapped--regardless of gender--sometimes they don't. That is why people might cheer on one slap and not cheer on another. People cheered Hikaru (a man) slapping Minmay (a woman) in DYRL. Unless Kotoko throwing a book would mean the lives of several thousand innocent people, I think it's safe to say the situations are not at all comparable and only have to do with gender in the most tangential way.

[Ultenth]

It still seems like me like you are trying to excuse violence on the behalf of women though. I don't see why there should be a double standard in regards to violence. In many ways it's not about the actual physical injury inflicted, but a mindset that you feel it's okay to physically harm the other person. It's that mindset that I take issue with, no matter who it is or what sex they are. The only reason I brought this whole thing up is that, as per the usual, the woman's violent actions were completely ignored, but there was a huge outcry against the mans. That kind of mindset is just plain wrong, I had a friend get his eye permanently injured and had to have surgey because of something a girl he was dating at the time threw at him.

I understand the whole "me man, me strong, you woman, you weak" mentality that brings about the whole idea that it's okay for women to be violent (even supposedly amusing, in fact some anime like Love Hina, Girls Bravo and ZNT are practically BASED on the idea) but a man can never do anything at all remotely violent towards a woman. I'm not saying that it's okay for a man to do something to a woman, I'm just saying that women should be held to the same standard. As my friend will tell you, either intentionally or through just bad luck, women are fully capable of permanently injuring a man. And to not even notice it in this circumstance or make mention of it as a negative thing to portray is something I strongly take issue with, especially since the outcry against Naoki's actions were so strong.

What if one of those books was thrown hard enough and damaged his eye in a way that he had to give up being a doctor? Who would be the bad guy then, and don't say it couldn't happen, because I've seen and known people who have gotten badly injured in far less imposing circumstances.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

What if one of those books was thrown hard enough and damaged his eye in a way that he had to give up being a doctor? Who would be the bad guy then, and don't say it couldn't happen, because I've seen and known people who have gotten badly injured in far less imposing circumstances.

That...would have been awesome.

Not because it's a woman hitting a man, but because that would be a really cool twist of the plot.

I'm not "excusing" anyone, I'm just saying that "justifiable anger" is gender neutral. If it had been "Naoko" slapping a justifiably angry "Kotohiko", I would have been just as annoyed. Slapping someone to their senses implies that their anger is unreasonable. Sometimes this is the case--which is why I don't have an issue with slapping all the time. Sometimes it's not the case, and slapping someone to make them "calm down" is a way of silencing them unfairly.

And, we're talking about fictional characters. In real life no one should be hitting anyone, regardless of gender.

[Ultenth]

I agree, and I feel the same way about THROWING things at people. I've seen a co-worker get her eye damaged while eating in the cafeteria by someone throwing a KETCHUP PACKET at her as a joke, she now has to wear glasses or contacts because of it.

Throwing objects at people is no more justifiable than slapping people, and women being violent is no more excusable than a man being violent, those were the two points I was trying to make is all. It was just annoying to me that even though he was in the wrong on the issue that was being fought about, both of them acted in ways that were equally reprehensible in my opinion, and yet only one of the acts was being decried.

[musouka]

No one was cheering Kotoko on for throwing books, people were just saying that Naoki's slap was completely unreasonable considering the way he had been acting this arc. People were cheering on her anger, but again, that's because it was justifiable and a long time in coming. How she chose to express that anger wasn't mature, but the underlying cause makes it "Go Kotoko! It's about fucking time!" instead of "calm down, Kotoko".

The action she took while angry might have been wrong, but her emotions were entirely correct.

[Babbito]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes, and the context of one was correct, and the context of one was incorrect. Kotoko was in pain because of Naoki's (in)action, and while he might be emotionally stunted, he knew damn well he was hurting her throughout this arc, and placed his "hurt" above hers. The example you're talking about is melodrama at a terrible time due to a misunderstanding of the situation.

It is about the context. Sometimes people need to be slapped--regardless of gender--sometimes they don't. That is why people might cheer on one slap and not cheer on another. People cheered Hikaru (a man) slapping Minmay (a woman) in DYRL. Unless Kotoko throwing a book would mean the lives of several thousand innocent people, I think it's safe to say the situations are not at all comparable and only have to do with gender in the most tangential way.

I already said it was a bad choice of example on my part. If I'd picked a more comparable example we probably won't even be arguing over it. However, the real issue I had with that example was that so many people were vehemently ecstatic about that particular slap. How many times did I read: "That slap was the best part of the episode!" whereas maybe it was justified in context and served to get the plot moving, but that doesn't change the fact that people were mostly happy about it because they felt like it was deserved simply because they like one character and dislike (and/or are disappointed in the actions of) the other. And for those people who think that a man hitting a woman in any context is unforgivable, then it doesn't really matter whether Hikaru was justified in slapping Minmei or not. To them, no matter what, his actions would still be wrong. So while my (ill-chosen) example might only tangentially have to do with gender, it's not like all examples would be the same.

And, really, in that example, as I said, whether the slap was "deserved" or not is beside the point. I think it was just as unnecessary in that show as it was in this one. I'm sure they could have calmed her down with just the hug and the words. To me the slap seemed extraneous - more of a "punishment" for getting hysterical in a bad situation. And actually, if the men involved in both of those examples (even though one didn't do any actual slapping) would have made up their minds, and addressed the pertinent issues earlier, the women wouldn't have been in the position to be slapped for hysteria to begin with. They really needed to deal with matters just like Naoki needed to. Didn't they also place their inability to come to a decision above the feelings of the other parties involved? Well, I mean, for Hikaru the scene came right after making a decision, but he should have clarified matters earlier, right?

Originally Posted by musouka

I'm not "excusing" anyone, I'm just saying that "justifiable anger" is gender neutral. If it had been "Naoko" slapping a justifiably angry "Kotohiko", I would have been just as annoyed. Slapping someone to their senses implies that their anger is unreasonable. Sometimes this is the case--which is why I don't have an issue with slapping all the time. Sometimes it's not the case, and slapping someone to make them "calm down" is a way of silencing them unfairly.

First, no where did I say that Kotoko's anger wasn't justifiable in that situation (I only said the situation of my comparison example was in question depending on how you viewed that situation). I think she had every right to get as angry as she did. Like I said, I'm not trying to excuse Naoki's behavior. When I address "justifiability" I'm talking about the slapper's justification for committing the act. Here, I don't think Naoki should have done what he did either.

I think our difference of opinion stems around what we think Naoki was trying to do by slapping Kotoko. I think that he honestly wanted to calm her down and then discuss things with her calmly when she wasn't crying and yelling whereas it seems like you believe he just didn't like what she had to say and wanted to shut her up. (Please correct me if I've stated your opinion incorrectly - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.) Like I said, he chose the wrong action, but I really don't think he was trying (in this instance, at least) to limit her ability to make her own opinions known.

Of course, Kotoko didn't see it from Naoki's point of view (well, it is hard to get inside his head), and probably also thought that he just wanted to shut her up, and then ran out of the room without giving Naoki a chance to actually talk to her. The fact that he had the opportunity to do so before and just chose to ignore and hurt her definitely didn't help. I'm not sure how the sequence of events went in the manga but in the anime the previous scene with Naoki was the one where he's talking with Kinnosuke and learns that he's been a jealous idiot the whole time. I DO think that this (new to him) information was something he was probably mulling over and if Kotoko had voiced her concerns at that time he would most likely have been willing to talk it over. (Of course, Kotoko had no idea about any of that.)

Should Kotoko have needed to address this? Obviously in an ideal world Naoki should have been the one to bring it up. Actually, in an ideal world Naoki wouldn't have been so stupid to begin with and the whole situation would have never come up. But where's the drama and conflict there that a shoujo series needs? As you said: "Kotoko was in pain because of Naoki's (in)action, and while he might be emotionally stunted, he knew damn well he was hurting her throughout this arc, and placed his "hurt" above hers." Well, as we've established many times, just like a real person, Naoki's not perfect. He makes mistakes. A lot of them. This was a big mistake. All I'm saying is, just because he (a man) slapped her (a woman) does not mean that it's automatically bad (well, slapping in general being bad aside).

In this instance, yes, he shouldn't have done it, but Kotoko also shouldn't have started throwing things at him. Yes, Kotoko was at her wit's end, but how many times did she actually follow through and try to address the problems between them? Opening her mouth, shutting it, and internalizing her feelings doesn't cut it. Just because she was suffering from his behavior doesn't give her automatic leave to behave childishly and throw things. Just like the proper response in episode 18 wasn't to scream at him in the cafeteria and then get mopey and drunk afterwards but to tell him that she found his behavior towards her unacceptable.

Honestly, the critique in the thread in general has been a bit one-sided. It's true that Naoki needs to shape up, but hardly anyone ever addresses the fact that Kotoko also needs to get it together. (Though there's a lot of talk about how she should just leave him for someone better. ) Maybe it's because Naoki's behavior seems so much worse because it's more overt, but if Kotoko is having a hard time, she should do something about it. A marriage is between two people so if Naoki isn't behaving like a good husband, then Kotoko needs to be the one to make that clear to him because she's the one being affected.

I don't want to keep beating on these points because I actually kind of hate it when threads start going all over the place instead of focusing on the actual show (so I should've known better than to bring in an example from another series since half of my posts in this thread seem to be discussing points about that series) or focusing on one event to the exclusion of everything else that happened in the episode. The slap was not the most important part of the episode. The most important part was that Naoki had some emotional growth and that his and Kotoko's relationship was repaired. I don't want this conversation to take away from that. The next most important thing is Kin and Chris getting engaged . . . but since they changed their storyline a bit (with Chris's background), I'm assuming they're going to cut out the subplot there. But I won't talk about it in case they leave it in!

It's a shame since a lot of subplots seem to have been cut or shortened since the anime is so pressed for time. Both Matsumotos and Sudo were a lot more fleshed out as characters when we actually spent more time with them, for instance. And it looks like they're skipping most of Yuuki's plot lines. I also miss seeing Satoko and Zinko. The anime kind of makes it seem like once Kotoko goes to nursing school her entire set of friends changes but that's not true. She still hangs out with her old friends. Also, I have no idea why they made her go to Tomoko's place when she was upset . . . originally she goes to Chris's place and Kinnosuke has to take care of both of them when they get drunk (complaining about Naoki). I loved that part. It was definitely a + to Kin-chan.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Babbito

but that doesn't change the fact that people were mostly happy about it because they felt like it was deserved simply because they like one character and dislike (and/or are disappointed in the actions of) the other.

Again, you're getting caught on the idea of "justifiable anger". What that girl was feeling was in no way, shape, or FORM "justifiable"--which is why that slap was a "FUCK YEAH!" slap for a lot of people. Understandable, yes, but she had absolutely no claim on that boy whatsoever--so her reaction was out of line. Now, if the boy had been her boyfriend, the scene would have been totally different, and the reaction to the other girl slapping her would have prompted a massive debate, because while the girl's reaction wouldn't have been mature, it would have been justified.

Originally Posted by Babbito

And actually, if the men involved in both of those examples (even though one didn't do any actual slapping) would have made up their minds, and addressed the pertinent issues earlier, the women wouldn't have been in the position to be slapped for hysteria to begin with.

No. NonononoNO. I'm sorry, but just as your pet peeve seems to be people claiming women can't physically harm men, MY pet peeve is people shoving all the blame in a romance on men. Hikaru was not dating Minmay--he didn't owe her a damn thing. The boy in your first example was not dating the girl--he doesn't owe her a damn thing either. If it's so important to the girls that this situation is resolved then they can damn well grow up and talk to the boys about their feelings like mature adults instead of "waiting for the man to decide".

Naoki, on the other hand, is married to Kotoko. He doesn't just owe her a "damn thing", he owes her some respect--something which he has never given her since he first met her. Slapping her to calm her down--again, this isn't an emergency with lives on the line, like the previous two slap examples--when she is justifiably angry at her emotionally-retarded husband's actions is wrong. If she wasn't able to talk normally, he should have either let her rage and accept it as his due, or, if it appeared more missiles were to be lobbed his way, left the room and allowed her to calm down.

Originally Posted by Babbito

Well, as we've established many times, just like a real person, Naoki's not perfect. He makes mistakes. A lot of them. This was a big mistake. All I'm saying is, just because he (a man) slapped her (a woman) does not mean that it's automatically bad (well, slapping in general being bad aside).

Naoki is "bad" because he's a self-centered asshole who almost always puts his own comfort above anyone else's feelings, not because he slapped Kotoko. It's one thing to say a character "isn't perfect"--and believe me, I don't demand perfection from my characters in the slightest--and another to watch him treat Kotoko in a way that borders on emotional abuse simply because he won't even deign to talk to her like a normal husband would to his wife.

Originally Posted by Babbito

Opening her mouth, shutting it, and internalizing her feelings doesn't cut it. Just because she was suffering from his behavior doesn't give her automatic leave to behave childishly and throw things.

Naoki has a way of shutting Kotoko down whenever he wants. Kotoko can't even talk about her day without Naoki all but telling her to shut up--why on earth would you think she feels self confident enough to broach actual issues with him?

EDIT: To put it a bit more clearly, perhaps, my take on the scene with the slap is basically, when Naoki does it, it's "calm down and listen to me". That is why I have such an issue with it. He's just had an epiphany about what a jerk he's been, but that doesn't give him the right to avoid Kotoko's anger over how this situation has been festering for so long. It's not just about fixing their relationship, it's about taking responsibility for the actions he's taken up to that point, and that means allowing Kotoko to be angry.

[Ultenth]

She married him, in fact she (along with his Mom) helped push the wedding forward quicker than he wished. She knew what he was like before they got married, what made her think he was suddenly going to change once he got a ring on his finger? Is the ring magic and changes his personality or something? I'm sorry, if you know someone is all messed up and has issues, and choose to marry them, then you are going to have to expect to deal with those issues at some point, and try to help them work through them.

A lot of the appeal and uniqueness of InK is the fact that it goes on after marriage, unlike a lot of manga and anime, and it broaches a lot of the issues that surround trying to have a successful one. A large problem in the world today with divorce rates is based around the problem that people expect their partner to suddenly change and become perfect once they get a ring on their finger. And that they shouldn't have to work at anything, and if there are any major problems then they should just move on because they weren't right for each other.

Unfortunately long term relationships and marriage are work, there are always issues, and you always have to have both partners work through them. People will usually act the same way married as they did before, so if you think putting a ring on someone's finger will make them decide to act differently then you're just deluded. Kotoko was deluded in this manner, and she had to deal with the consequences. This in no way pardons Naoki for his actions, it simply means that her reaction should have been more forceful in trying to open the lines of communication, because she KNEW ahead of time that was an issue he had, and something he would probably find very difficult.

When you marry someone, you have to acknowledge their issues and faults, and accept them and realize that you will have to put in effort to work through them, not just expect that they will disappear now that they are married. This show illustrates that quite well, and is one of the reasons I like it, which is why I get upset at all the calls for her to leave him every time there is an issue. And people wonder why the divorce rate is so high.

As for the slap and why Naoki did it, he was totally in the wrong, but imagine what YOUR reaction would be if your wife (not just girlfriend) told you that a coworker or fellow classmate was serious about her, then followed it by saying that he told her you didn't love her, and that she agreed with him. I'm not saying that justifies it, because in many ways he was the reason it got to that point, but I can imagine losing a bit of self-control if the person I'm married to started throwing books at me because I wouldn't go on a date with her, then said that to me (nevermind that it was the straw that broke the camels back). I very much doubt that many people would be able to have an immediate reasoned response to that situation.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

She married him, in fact she (along with his Mom) helped push the wedding forward quicker than he wished.

I think marrying him was a stupid thing to do--then again, I don't even like Naoki and Kotoko as a couple--but it's not as thought she dragged him to the church and made him say the words at gunpoint. It takes two to get married--and if Naoki couldn't deal with his "emoootions", then he sure as hell shouldn't have married her either. It is always Kotoko that expends the effort in the relationship, and the one time when Naoki had to step up to the plate, he blew it big time until that last miracle home run.

Kotoko has worked fiendishly hard even before marriage to be closer to him. It's not as though she expected him to become the perfect man--to the point of agreeing with him quite often when he comes down on her entirely too harshly--but Kotoko isn't asking him to become "perfect", she's asking him to be a human being--capable of at least the most rudimentary empathy and compassion. Naoki has demonstrated that he understands those concepts deep inside that monstrous brain of his, so it's not as though there's no precedent for it.

Originally Posted by Ultenth

As for the slap and why Naoki did it, he was totally in the wrong, but imagine what YOUR reaction would be if your wife (not just girlfriend) told you that a coworker or fellow classmate was serious about her, then followed it by saying that he told her you didn't love her, and that she agreed with him.

Oh yes, because Kotoko is just supposed to "believe" Naoki loves her when he doesn't give her a shred of proof it's the case. If my significant other said that to me, I sure as hell wouldn't slap them, I'd instantly protest that it wasn't true. Because, you know, I'm not that much of a self-absorbed jerk.

[Ultenth]

It's not quite about being perfect, I was a bit overexaggerating there, it's about changing. She knew how he was before marriage, and she should have known better than to think putting a ring on him would change anything. Maybe it will change them for a few months, but unless they go through therapy or something of that nature, more than likely they will fall back into their old habits and personality. Naoki has problems, that's something we all acknowledge, but so does everyone, and I think my main problem with people's approach to him is that people feel his isn't deserving of love.

Everyone should have a chance at love, and everyone has problems that make it difficult for them to find it. Just because someone has a facial scar, or is fat or too skinny, or suffers from a mental illness (Naoki's emotional problems could almost be qualified as such, and honestly he should seek therapy) doesn't mean that they don't deserve love. People are making him out to be such a monster that he should be locked away in a cage and never loved by anyone, which is completely unfair to him. That doesn't mean he gets a free pass on any mistakes he makes, but if anything it's BECAUSE of his problems that I think he deserves Kotoko, because she's a perfect match for him.

[Babbito]

[QUOTE=musouka;1836100]Again, you're getting caught on the idea of "justifiable anger". What that girl was feeling was in no way, shape, or FORM "justifiable"--which is why that slap was a "FUCK YEAH!" slap for a lot of people. Understandable, yes, but she had absolutely no claim on that boy whatsoever--so her reaction was out of line. Now, if the boy had been her boyfriend, the scene would have been totally different, and the reaction to the other girl slapping her would have prompted a massive debate, because while the girl's reaction wouldn't have been mature, it would have been justified.

Um, I see that you are trying to push your opinion as an absolute, which it isn't, and frankly, you're the one who keeps pushing the "justifiable" point. I've just been responding to your comments. In fact, I wanted to drop this whole portion of the conversation because it was an example off the top of my head about a completely different series and as I've said repeatedly, it was a bad example and I don't think it's appropriate to continue discussing it in a thread about Itazura na Kiss. That said, I'm going to reply to your comments on this one last time and after that, I'm dropping it and I'd appreciate it if you could see fit to do the same.

She is a teenage girl infatuated with a boy who she believes (wrongly or not) reciprocates her feelings. Is it immature of her to assume this without actually making sure? Sure, yeah. Have people ever misinterpreted a situation or believed that someone liked you and it turned out to be untrue (usually following some sort of awkward or embarrassing scene?)? Do teenage girls get their hearts crushed all the time and end up lashing out at others or crying in their rooms? Uh, yeah. I don't know why you keep harping on the fact that because she was immature in the given situation and reacted badly about someone who wasn't her boyfriend but who she believed reciprocated her feelings that this slap was "deserved" because it was a "FUCK YEAH" and it's okay that people are totally cheering about this. I thought your whole argument before was that people were dying because she wasn't doing her job because she was crying and hysterical so the situations weren't comparable? Well, how does her seeing her boyfriend with another woman in your hypothetical solution change whether the slap was justified or not in getting her to calm down and do her job? It's still an emergency either way. Okay, don't answer that, that will just move us even further away from the original territory. Sorry. The point I was trying to make was that the whole situation could have been handled differently without the resort to physical violence. And the original point which you seem to ignore whenever discussing this example that those people who find a man hitting a woman completely unforgiveable would probably not forgive that situation if it had been a man doing it, but because it was a woman it was okay. However, since I have acknowledged that this example is a BAD ONE, being as charged with shipping bias (among other things, and oh, for the record, I don't actually care about that particular love triangle AT ALL) as it is and using a mostly incomparable situation we really need to just drop it.

Originally Posted by musouka

No. NonononoNO. I'm sorry, but just as your pet peeve seems to be people claiming women can't physically harm men, MY pet peeve is people shoving all the blame in a romance on men. Hikaru was not dating Minmay--he didn't owe her a damn thing. The boy in your first example was not dating the girl--he doesn't owe her a damn thing either. If it's so important to the girls that this situation is resolved then they can damn well grow up and talk to the boys about their feelings like mature adults instead of "waiting for the man to decide".

My "pet peeve" is more the perceived lack of respect for women and the ability of women to retaliate and stand up for themselves against men. And you can't honestly tell me that the men in those two examples weren't aware that they needed to make themselves clear. I don't think the women should be "waiting for the man to decide" but I also think that if a man is involved in, hell, let's just call it what it is, a love triangle, then he needs to be a mature adult too and talk about his feelings. Just like you're saying with Kotoko, why does the woman have to make all the effort to resolve the relationship? I think all parties involved should deal with the situation as maturely as they can. The point of the matter is that the man is the center of the love triangle so both girls can talk him until they're blue in the face but if he continues waffling on the matter, what are they supposed to do? They have no power over who he wants to be with . . . he's the only one who can decide that for himself. He needs to have input on the situation too. And in neither of those instances did he really make it clear. Heck, Misa was afraid Hikaru would run after Minmei until the last possible moment and I seem to recall her being unsure of their relationship the entire time in the TV show. That's a great foundation for a relationship.

Okay, that's my last word on this example too, since it's also very OT.

Originally Posted by musouka

Naoki, on the other hand, is married to Kotoko. He doesn't just owe her a "damn thing", he owes her some respect--something which he has never given her since he first met her. Slapping her to calm her down--again, this isn't an emergency with lives on the line, like the previous two slap examples--when she is justifiably angry at her emotionally-retarded husband's actions is wrong. If she wasn't able to talk normally, he should have either let her rage and accept it as his due, or, if it appeared more missiles were to be lobbed his way, left the room and allowed her to calm down.

Again it's you who keeps bringing up whether something is "justifiable" or not. And I've said it time and again, I have never said that Kotoko's anger wasn't justifiable. I have also said that that is beside the point. Yes, Naoki owes her respect not just as his wife but as a fellow human being. And do you really think that leaving the room or letting her rage at him without stopping her would be good solutions here? Most likely Kotoko would take it as more signs that he just didn't care. I mean, what kind of a person who cares about his wife would let her accuse him of not loving her any more and talk about how she should just have an affair with her friend who is trying to break up their marriage without saying anything? A normal husband would at least attempt to defend (by this I mean verbally) himself and explain himself, something I think Naoki was on the verge of doing when she ran out of the room.

Originally Posted by musouka

Naoki is "bad" because he's a self-centered asshole who almost always puts his own comfort above anyone else's feelings, not because he slapped Kotoko. It's one thing to say a character "isn't perfect"--and believe me, I don't demand perfection from my characters in the slightest--and another to watch him treat Kotoko in a way that borders on emotional abuse simply because he won't even deign to talk to her like a normal husband would to his wife.

I notice you don't bother to respond to any of my comments about how Kotoko needs to deal with this. If she's really in as bad a situation as you say then what she needs to do is get out of it. But their relationship is not that bad. He was supportive of her going to nursing school when the entire family was against it, he immediately went to see her at the clinic when she fainted (oh, and in the manga he was there when she wakes up too), and aside from his current jealousy-induced behavior, his attitude towards her is pretty much the same as it's ever been (well, I think he's improved a bit). Kotoko knows what his personality's like. She's put up with it ever since she met him and if she didn't think she could handle it, she shouldn't have married him. If she wants to stay with him but doesn't want to put up with it, then she needs to do something about it.

Aren't you the one who can't stand it when people shove all the blame in romance on men? Kotoko needs to step it up and take responsibility for her own happiness. As Ultenth and I have been saying, she needs to take some responsibility here and talk to him and make him aware of the things he's doing wrong.

Originally Posted by musouka

Naoki has a way of shutting Kotoko down whenever he wants. Kotoko can't even talk about her day without Naoki all but telling her to shut up--why on earth would you think she feels self confident enough to broach actual issues with him?

Whether she's confident enough or not, she does broach the issue by throwing books at him and yelling at him. If she was going to do that, she could have handled it more maturely. Also, it's not like she doesn't have support in the house. Mama would definitely be on her side, no matter what. And before they were married weren't there several times when she took the wind out of his sails? She blackmailed him into doing her bidding, for crying out loud. Her persistance is one of her strong points. I don't think just because she's married to him now, she's suddenly become incapable of talking to him and telling him exactly what's on her mind. Think about episode 7 (high school graduation) where she tells him she "knows his character so well it disgusts her" and is going to give up him. Okay, he kissed her right after she said that which weakened her resolve, but she still said it. She's really never been shy about telling him he's been behaving like a jerk.

Originally Posted by musouka

EDIT: To put it a bit more clearly, perhaps, my take on the scene with the slap is basically, when Naoki does it, it's "calm down and listen to me". That is why I have such an issue with it. He's just had an epiphany about what a jerk he's been, but that doesn't give him the right to avoid Kotoko's anger over how this situation has been festering for so long. It's not just about fixing their relationship, it's about taking responsibility for the actions he's taken up to that point, and that means allowing Kotoko to be angry.

I don't see it as "calm down and listen to me." If you re-watch the scene, he says "calm down" and then he waits for her to speak. If he just wanted her to shut up and listen to him, he would have immediately followed up that "calm down" with something else. I think he just wanted the two of them to talk about it calmly. I don't think he's trying to escape from her righteous anger or trying to weasel his way out of taking responsibility for his past behavior. And yes, she can be angry, but screaming and crying and throwing things, while a great outlet for the emotions, is not the way you should show your anger. Trust me, I have been on the receiving end and you do not achieve either reasonable discourse or . . . really, much of anything. She has a right to be angry. She has a right to speak her mind. But throwing a tantrum isn't how she should go about it. She's an adult, married woman and she needs to behave like one. If this means calling him on his bullshit, then she needs to do that, rather than internalizing everything and lashing out when she can't take it anymore.

[musouka]

If all you wanted me to say was that Kotoko shares part of the blame for the situation then, yeah, sure, she does. But the difference is that she always makes the effort to reach out to Naoki, and he's always in the position of brushing her off of shutting her down.

I mean, in this situation, it's Naoki that has the problem. Therefore it behooves Naoki to make the effort to fix it, not Kotoko. It's kind of like how in the beginning of the series, I don't "blame" Naoki for not loving Kotoko. Her feelings are her own problem, and Naoki isn't obligated to bend over backwards to address things.

[Babbito]

Okay, as to this, I can agree with you 100%. He should have made the effort to fix things before they got to that point because he was the one with the attitude problem and the one who was treating her badly. Unfortunately, he didn't. Hopefully he will take the lessons he's learned from this to heart and work to improve himself so that he can become 1) a better man, 2) a good husband, and 3) more worthy of Kotoko's love.

Kotoko always makes the effort to reach out to him, but I think that has to do with her personality - she's a very loving and goodhearted person. For Naoki, being an emotionally closed-off idiot, this is something he has to learn (again, I'm not excusing his actions) and I think he's finally starting to. A bit late, yeah, but better late than never. It's not like he can ever do anything to make up for the pain he's already put Kotoko through because of his idiocy, but he can work to make sure he doesn't make the same mistakes again.

[Molenir]

All this talk back and forth about how Naoki shouldn't have slapped Kotoko, and trying to excuse him on the basis of a double standard... Sorry, but in reality, there is a double standard. Thats just the way things are. Guys are supposed to protect girls, not abuse them, and hitting them definitely constitutes abuse. Girls on the other hand aren't excused for hitting guys, but the level of damage they can potentially do is so much less, that its generally overlooked. So, double standard? Absolutely. That does not excuse Naoki. What he did, and continues to do to Kotoko is extremely abusive. Not only the physical, but the emotional abuse as well. He really needs to wake up.

[Ultenth]

And I happen to disagree. That kind of thinking is sexiest and foolish. If you think a dish or other object thrown at your face by an angry woman doesn't have the potential to injure you, even permanently, then I guess you just don't understand physics and biology well enough. The idea of "you're a man, you can take it" is retarded macho bravado. I'm not saying that Naoki is being abused constantly, or anything of that nature. I'm simply stating the flipping out and throwing things at people IS NOT OKAY.

Everyone keeps trying to side-track the arguement, and bring up excuses and other BS, but I just want a simple answer: Do you think it is okay for a woman to throw things at a man if they are upset at them? If it is, then why, and if not, then why does it seem I was the only one that seems to think it's worth mentioning?