AnimeSuki Forums

kuroishinigami · 2012-10-04, 00:47

Kenshin might arguably be a better general than Shingen(definitely a stronger warrior though), but Shingen is definitely no slouch either at leading his army considering the Takeda cavalry was so reknown at that time, more than Kenshin's. in fact, if not due to his timely death, it's very likely that Shingen will be able to defeat Ieyasu, one of Nobunaga's strongest ally at that time, and endanger Nobunaga's force.

One thing that Shingen is definitely better than Kenshin at is his governing ability. Say what you want about how cruel some of the punishment in the law he created or slavery or force prostitution(which other daimyo might also do toward peasants from area they conquered by force, it's just a dissonance of value with modern world although Shingen might be a little harsher than other daimyos), but he's the pioneer in instituting fines toward minor crime instead of corporal punishment that is more widely used at that time. He also is one of the few daimyo that tax his subject evenly(most of the other daimyos exempted powerful samurai family out of political reason). He's also one of the forerunner that allow tax payment in either gold or rice(most of the other daimyo only allow gold). In fact, Ieyasu even incorporated some of Shingen's style and technique of governance in his pretty long lasting Shogunate, which shows how good some of Shingen's governance skill are. Kenshin on the other hand is a warmonger that never able to materially gain something from all his raids and invasion that enrich the people in his land.

Back on topic of the novel, I also think Kenshin will be a girl in the novel, although I really hope the author'll prove me wrong this time. I actually want to see another major male character beside Saru in the novel(ichi doesn't count because he looks and acts too much like a girl XD)

Undertaker · 2012-10-04, 01:34

Not going to argue about most of your points because they are legit. Shingen is definite a better governor than Kenshin is.

Though I won't go as far as that Kenshi is warmonger, Shingen was more war-crazed than Kenshin was. Kenshin rarely goes on offensive for invasion purposes and always goes by the book. He was also known as a culturally person.

Anyway, I was just replying to what Darknemo2000 seems to infer.

Like I said, you can make a case that any of the top daimiyo can unified the land if not because of the existence of his rivals or obstacles he needs to went through.

But you got to give a better reasons than because Shingen has a great group of talented generals. I mean, which top Daimyo didn't have a group of talented generals?

I would have been fine if he argued from your PoV and go from there.

By the way, Takeda cavalries is certain famed, but recent historical findings are leaning toward that the Takeda cavalries didn't really exist, at least not the cavalries that we think they are, that Takada cavalries is a actually a way describing how fast and adapted that Takeda's foot solders is at using horses to maneuvering around the battle field and NOT an actual charging cavalries. Koyo Gunkan (甲陽軍鑑) clearly states that Takeda cavalries actually fights on foot.

Also a minor detail, you were mistaken with the taxes, the tax system at time is still rice (hen the Koku stuff) not gold. In fact Nobunaga's quick ascension is greatly tributed to his understanding of money on how currencies (gold) and economy works over traditional value over rice.

With that being said, I still do believe that Nobunaga was the best mixture of military ability and governing ability in the era.

Also just to add, I have no doubt Shingen can wipe Tokugawa's butt if he was healthy and didn't suddenly died. But I have my reservation on whether he can steamroll through against Nobunaga. IMO, that is 50-50 chances,even considering the coalition Oda is facing and most like ended in double-KO.

And back to novel,

I also think Kenshi would just be a women, it just doesn' t make sense for him to not to unless the author is going to portray him as the next Asakura, which would be interesting.

ReaperxKingx · 2012-10-04, 07:08

Really interesting to read about all this information. I looked up Kenshin, he rarely goes on the offensive and when he does they are usually surprise attacks or deceptions. Kenshin seems more like a defensive style of fighting. Usually defending is easier than attacking in most cases.

Undertaker · 2012-10-05, 04:35

which battle were you referring to?

Keshin usually only fights reactive battle, (ie been attacked or acting as support due to requests) But he tends to be the aggressor during the battle themselves.

Battles of Kawanakajima, the famed series of encounter between Kenshin and Shingen all have Kenshin acting as the aggressor and Shingen as defender despite Kenshin's disadvantage in numbers.

But the cause of there confrontation were to to the request of daimiyo who were been invaded by Shingen.

ReaperxKingx · 2012-10-05, 07:21

My definition of defense is the one being attacked and does not start a battle. Even if one becomes aggressive, it still counts as defense as long as he is not pushing into Takeda's territory. Well according to what I learn from JROTC in High school from my Warrant Officer teacher back then.

Undertaker · 2012-10-05, 09:21

make sense, though Battles of Kawanakajima were really more of a neutral ground, Kenshin basically intercepts Shingen during his invasion and force him to turn back. And in Third and Fourth Shingen actually set up defensive camps and castles in anticipation of Kenshin's arrival.

Kenshin tactically won the encounters as he is in numbers disadvantage most of time and still causes more casualties to Shingen force and even manage to kill some of his top retainers at time in the Fourth encounter.

But Shingen won strategically by somehow always gaining a little bit of territories before Kenshin arrives as well as social position that legitimized his rule when court got involved.

HasNoLove · 2012-10-05, 22:00

just askin..
is kanetsugu noe from kenshin side und yukimura sanada sasuke sarutobi from shingen side make apperance..??

Undertaker · 2012-10-06, 03:15

No, Kenshin hasn't even made his formal appearances yet, Besides at time he was still living, Kanetsugu was nothing but a page, and we still haven't seen Ranmaru yet.

Same with Yukimura, unlike most games or fiction suggested, Yukimura was only 5 when Shingen died and not even turned 15 (coming-of-age) when Takeda clan was wiped out. So he technically was never a Takeda retainer and was actually Oda retainer since his coming of age was after Sanada clan surrenders to Oda.

It's was his father and grandfather who actually served under Takeda. His father Sanada Masayuki was the real famed Sanada who is a well known tactician.

Yukimura was only active during the latter part of Hideyoshi's reign after Nobunaga's death.

But since they accelerate the timeline they could be present but considering that Yukimura is the same age as Date, he'll just be another 5-6 year old brat, while Kanetsugu at best, would be a 7-8 year old.

It's more probable for Maeda Toshimasu(Maeda Kenji) to make appearance than them considering that despite him being technically Toshiie's(Inuchiyo) nephew he is the around the same age, might even be much older, to Toshiie.

As for Sarutobi Sasuke and the rest of the Sanada 10 braves. It' unlikely, considering that the 10 braves are creation of fictions and were mostly like not real (a few of braves do appear in various folklore but with no historical record to back them up)

All the characters so far (other than Himiko) in LN are all real historical characters that where mentioned in some historical text even if some's existence could be up for dispute like Shingen's strategist Yamamoto Kansuke.

Considering that Sasa, Ikeda, and Hayashi were all anime original that has yet to even appear in novel, I doubt imaginary characters like Sarutobi would appear in this series.

HasNoLove · 2012-10-06, 05:28

^ okay...
then when honda's serve tokugawa...?? is 'em mentioned in novel yet..?

kazzuya13 · 2012-10-06, 11:33

Anyone can be the one who unified Japan not just Nobunaga if not for the other Daimyo who block they're way. Like Shingen or Kenshin.

Undertaker · 2012-10-06, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazzuya13

Anyone can be the one who unified Japan not just Nobunaga if not for the other Daimyo who block they're way. Like Shingen or Kenshin.

That's exactly my point, thank you...

I mean, you can make case for any major daimyo, but you got to come up with a better argument or statement then he had some impressive military commanders...

As for Honda, he is suspiciously yet to appear in novel. In that case, other than Hanzo, none of Tokugawa's famed retainer, regardless of age has yet to make an appearance.

rantaid · 2012-10-07, 06:04

sorry fellow member chad001. for offending you.

Joining the current discussion.

From the famous tale i used to read, During the Fourth Battle of Kawanakajima, Uesugi Kenshin leading her own troops charged toward the middle of Takeda encampment, shocking the distracted Shingen.

Uesugi brandished his blade on top of his horse, while Shingen quickly maintained his composure, using his tessen (iron fan to issue order to troops) to deflect Kenshin's blade.

Kenshin who realized his surprise charge failed thus withdraw from the battle. Hence this campaign ended in stalemate.

During this campaign, Yamamoto Kansuke died when he thought his tactics failed.

Seeing this part of story, i think Uesugi is more like general who are more prominent in fighting, while Shingen is a general more prone in troop deployment. So, i guess Uesugi Kenshin when it will be revealed in the next volume will be.... a girl. (it is more fun that way). No one dislike Rance's Uesugi Kenshin, i guess.

Oh... May i ask? did the novel depict what kind of tactic Takeda Shingen used in this LN? i really want to see the author depiction of Fuhrinkazan tactics, borrowed from Chapter 7 Maneuver of Sun Zi's Art of War.

Reading the summary of Takenaka Shigeharu application of Cheng Yu's Ten Side of Ambush (used during the battle of Cangting) really make me curious.

Darknemo2000 · 2012-10-07, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by rantaid

No one dislike Rance's Uesugi Kenshin, i guess.

She was the most popular heroine in Sengoku Rance and is one of the most popular characters that Alicesoft created in general. And now its hard to imagine any alicesoft game where Uesugi would not make a comeback of some sport.

So yeah - Uesugi as a girl did work out to Alicesoft pretty well.

Sumeragi · 2012-10-07, 13:19

Tall, Dark and Bishoujo. You can't go wrong with that formula (never mind if you include her being a fighting idiot and quite an eater).

nfsac · 2012-10-07, 13:28

So up to now, someone have a summary of those nice events up from volume 5 ownards?

ReaperxKingx · 2012-10-07, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfsac

So up to now, someone have a summary of those nice events up from volume 5 ownards?

Sorry, we would but the Chinese translations are not there yet.

Also seems like Kenshin gotten a fan base despite no showing up yet. Can't wait for her to appear (Most likely her, all the Daimyos thus far is female). I would imagine Kenshin to be rough looking or tom boy like personality, something similar to Takeda.

Undertaker · 2012-10-07, 16:32

I actually think of opposite. So far all female depiction of her has she being a refined, cultural/intelligent-looking girl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Tall, Dark and Bishoujo. You can't go wrong with that formula (never mind if you include her being a fighting idiot and quite an eater).

Hey, oku is a charm point as long as you're cute...

Sumeragi · 2012-10-07, 19:02

Oku? What's the kanji?

I agree with Undertaker's assessment. Heck, Kenshin has been portrayed as a reserved, dignified person in both genders, so deviating from that would be quite an unique portrayal.

ReaperxKingx · 2012-10-07, 19:21

Its going to be interesting when Kenshin comes into the story. We don't know what could have happen to the rivalry of Takeda, Kenshin, and Nobunaga if Takeda and Kenshin didn't die early. The author will have the bigger opportunity to experiment now.

nfsac · 2012-10-07, 20:15

The novels are on japanese right, so why we usually wait for chinese translations? It always made me confuse either on manga or LNs.

2012-10-04, 01:34	Link #2102
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	Not going to argue about most of your points because they are legit. Shingen is definite a better governor than Kenshin is. Though I won't go as far as that Kenshi is warmonger, Shingen was more war-crazed than Kenshin was. Kenshin rarely goes on offensive for invasion purposes and always goes by the book. He was also known as a culturally person. Anyway, I was just replying to what Darknemo2000 seems to infer. Like I said, you can make a case that any of the top daimiyo can unified the land if not because of the existence of his rivals or obstacles he needs to went through. But you got to give a better reasons than because Shingen has a great group of talented generals. I mean, which top Daimyo didn't have a group of talented generals? I would have been fine if he argued from your PoV and go from there. By the way, Takeda cavalries is certain famed, but recent historical findings are leaning toward that the Takeda cavalries didn't really exist, at least not the cavalries that we think they are, that Takada cavalries is a actually a way describing how fast and adapted that Takeda's foot solders is at using horses to maneuvering around the battle field and NOT an actual charging cavalries. Koyo Gunkan (甲陽軍鑑) clearly states that Takeda cavalries actually fights on foot. Also a minor detail, you were mistaken with the taxes, the tax system at time is still rice (hen the Koku stuff) not gold. In fact Nobunaga's quick ascension is greatly tributed to his understanding of money on how currencies (gold) and economy works over traditional value over rice. With that being said, I still do believe that Nobunaga was the best mixture of military ability and governing ability in the era. Also just to add, I have no doubt Shingen can wipe Tokugawa's butt if he was healthy and didn't suddenly died. But I have my reservation on whether he can steamroll through against Nobunaga. IMO, that is 50-50 chances,even considering the coalition Oda is facing and most like ended in double-KO. And back to novel, I also think Kenshi would just be a women, it just doesn' t make sense for him to not to unless the author is going to portray him as the next Asakura, which would be interesting. __________________

2012-10-05, 04:35	Link #2104
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	which battle were you referring to? Keshin usually only fights reactive battle, (ie been attacked or acting as support due to requests) But he tends to be the aggressor during the battle themselves. Battles of Kawanakajima, the famed series of encounter between Kenshin and Shingen all have Kenshin acting as the aggressor and Shingen as defender despite Kenshin's disadvantage in numbers. But the cause of there confrontation were to to the request of daimiyo who were been invaded by Shingen. __________________

2012-10-05, 09:21	Link #2106
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	make sense, though Battles of Kawanakajima were really more of a neutral ground, Kenshin basically intercepts Shingen during his invasion and force him to turn back. And in Third and Fourth Shingen actually set up defensive camps and castles in anticipation of Kenshin's arrival. Kenshin tactically won the encounters as he is in numbers disadvantage most of time and still causes more casualties to Shingen force and even manage to kill some of his top retainers at time in the Fourth encounter. But Shingen won strategically by somehow always gaining a little bit of territories before Kenshin arrives as well as social position that legitimized his rule when court got involved. __________________

2012-10-05, 22:00	Link #2107
HasNoLove GiveMeMoreLove Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Under the Hell and Above the Heaven	just askin.. is kanetsugu noe from kenshin side und yukimura sanada sasuke sarutobi from shingen side make apperance..?? __________________

2012-10-06, 03:15	Link #2108
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	No, Kenshin hasn't even made his formal appearances yet, Besides at time he was still living, Kanetsugu was nothing but a page, and we still haven't seen Ranmaru yet. Same with Yukimura, unlike most games or fiction suggested, Yukimura was only 5 when Shingen died and not even turned 15 (coming-of-age) when Takeda clan was wiped out. So he technically was never a Takeda retainer and was actually Oda retainer since his coming of age was after Sanada clan surrenders to Oda. It's was his father and grandfather who actually served under Takeda. His father Sanada Masayuki was the real famed Sanada who is a well known tactician. Yukimura was only active during the latter part of Hideyoshi's reign after Nobunaga's death. But since they accelerate the timeline they could be present but considering that Yukimura is the same age as Date, he'll just be another 5-6 year old brat, while Kanetsugu at best, would be a 7-8 year old. It's more probable for Maeda Toshimasu(Maeda Kenji) to make appearance than them considering that despite him being technically Toshiie's(Inuchiyo) nephew he is the around the same age, might even be much older, to Toshiie. As for Sarutobi Sasuke and the rest of the Sanada 10 braves. It' unlikely, considering that the 10 braves are creation of fictions and were mostly like not real (a few of braves do appear in various folklore but with no historical record to back them up) All the characters so far (other than Himiko) in LN are all real historical characters that where mentioned in some historical text even if some's existence could be up for dispute like Shingen's strategist Yamamoto Kansuke. Considering that Sasa, Ikeda, and Hayashi were all anime original that has yet to even appear in novel, I doubt imaginary characters like Sarutobi would appear in this series. __________________

2012-10-04, 00:47	Link #2101
kuroishinigami Ava courtesy of patchy Join Date: Jan 2009	Kenshin might arguably be a better general than Shingen(definitely a stronger warrior though), but Shingen is definitely no slouch either at leading his army considering the Takeda cavalry was so reknown at that time, more than Kenshin's. in fact, if not due to his timely death, it's very likely that Shingen will be able to defeat Ieyasu, one of Nobunaga's strongest ally at that time, and endanger Nobunaga's force. One thing that Shingen is definitely better than Kenshin at is his governing ability. Say what you want about how cruel some of the punishment in the law he created or slavery or force prostitution(which other daimyo might also do toward peasants from area they conquered by force, it's just a dissonance of value with modern world although Shingen might be a little harsher than other daimyos), but he's the pioneer in instituting fines toward minor crime instead of corporal punishment that is more widely used at that time. He also is one of the few daimyo that tax his subject evenly(most of the other daimyos exempted powerful samurai family out of political reason). He's also one of the forerunner that allow tax payment in either gold or rice(most of the other daimyo only allow gold). In fact, Ieyasu even incorporated some of Shingen's style and technique of governance in his pretty long lasting Shogunate, which shows how good some of Shingen's governance skill are. Kenshin on the other hand is a warmonger that never able to materially gain something from all his raids and invasion that enrich the people in his land. Back on topic of the novel, I also think Kenshin will be a girl in the novel, although I really hope the author'll prove me wrong this time. I actually want to see another major male character beside Saru in the novel(ichi doesn't count because he looks and acts too much like a girl XD)

2012-10-04, 07:08	Link #2103
ReaperxKingx Emperor of the Expected Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Florida	Really interesting to read about all this information. I looked up Kenshin, he rarely goes on the offensive and when he does they are usually surprise attacks or deceptions. Kenshin seems more like a defensive style of fighting. Usually defending is easier than attacking in most cases.

2012-10-05, 07:21	Link #2105
ReaperxKingx Emperor of the Expected Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Florida	My definition of defense is the one being attacked and does not start a battle. Even if one becomes aggressive, it still counts as defense as long as he is not pushing into Takeda's territory. Well according to what I learn from JROTC in High school from my Warrant Officer teacher back then.

2012-10-06, 05:28	Link #2109
HasNoLove GiveMeMoreLove Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Under the Hell and Above the Heaven	^ okay... then when honda's serve tokugawa...?? is 'em mentioned in novel yet..? __________________

2012-10-06, 11:33	Link #2110
kazzuya13 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012	Anyone can be the one who unified Japan not just Nobunaga if not for the other Daimyo who block they're way. Like Shingen or Kenshin.

2012-10-07, 06:04	Link #2112
rantaid Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Indonesia	sorry fellow member chad001. for offending you. Joining the current discussion. From the famous tale i used to read, During the Fourth Battle of Kawanakajima, Uesugi Kenshin leading her own troops charged toward the middle of Takeda encampment, shocking the distracted Shingen. Uesugi brandished his blade on top of his horse, while Shingen quickly maintained his composure, using his tessen (iron fan to issue order to troops) to deflect Kenshin's blade. Kenshin who realized his surprise charge failed thus withdraw from the battle. Hence this campaign ended in stalemate. During this campaign, Yamamoto Kansuke died when he thought his tactics failed. Seeing this part of story, i think Uesugi is more like general who are more prominent in fighting, while Shingen is a general more prone in troop deployment. So, i guess Uesugi Kenshin when it will be revealed in the next volume will be.... a girl. (it is more fun that way). No one dislike Rance's Uesugi Kenshin, i guess. Oh... May i ask? did the novel depict what kind of tactic Takeda Shingen used in this LN? i really want to see the author depiction of Fuhrinkazan tactics, borrowed from Chapter 7 Maneuver of Sun Zi's Art of War. Reading the summary of Takenaka Shigeharu application of Cheng Yu's Ten Side of Ambush (used during the battle of Cangting) really make me curious. __________________ http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2496168/Rantaid https://www.fictionpress.com/~rantaid I like Netorare.

2012-10-07, 13:19	Link #2114
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Tall, Dark and Bishoujo. You can't go wrong with that formula (never mind if you include her being a fighting idiot and quite an eater).

2012-10-07, 13:28	Link #2115
nfsac Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Lineage 2 - Age: 32	So up to now, someone have a summary of those nice events up from volume 5 ownards?

2012-10-07, 19:02	Link #2118
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Oku? What's the kanji? I agree with Undertaker's assessment. Heck, Kenshin has been portrayed as a reserved, dignified person in both genders, so deviating from that would be quite an unique portrayal.

2012-10-07, 19:21	Link #2119
ReaperxKingx Emperor of the Expected Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Florida	Its going to be interesting when Kenshin comes into the story. We don't know what could have happen to the rivalry of Takeda, Kenshin, and Nobunaga if Takeda and Kenshin didn't die early. The author will have the bigger opportunity to experiment now.

2012-10-07, 20:15	Link #2120
nfsac Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Lineage 2 - Age: 32	The novels are on japanese right, so why we usually wait for chinese translations? It always made me confuse either on manga or LNs.