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Old 2013-05-13, 14:20   Link #32241
Dormin
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And btw while on the topic of game being hijacked I thought I'd share my own take

Even though I like to believe even the gameboards could be explained with other culprits instead of Yasu, after OC and Ryu spreading his golden truth I must painfully agree that Yasu was at least intended to be the real culprit.

I don't know if you have discussed this here up to what point, but I surely believe that in the Rokkenjima-prime (or what you want to call it) Yasu wasn't a culprit and game was hijacked by probably Kyrie/Rudolf as we have some evidence (like the relationship of Ange and Eva). Wouldn't this mean that Yasu never was culprit and the entire umineko would be a meta-story about heart of Yasu? So should the gameboards be treated as metaphorical pieces, maybe explaining them as hints towards the causality behind the killings and gold, or even as fantasies made by Yasu as a way to release anger like Maria in episode 4? So basically it would mean that gameboards could be explained with pretty much any culprit without changing the truth and thus making even searching a true culprit a waste of time?

I know I am probably taking this too far, but wouldn't this mean that instead of discussing the killer we should discuss whether Yasu in real world is twisted psycho or a pure maiden seeking a way to escape from the island?
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:32   Link #32242
Renall
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The problem I always had with "well she can threaten people with the bomb" is like... really? Who is going to even believe that story? It's an empty threat and any sane person is going to call her bluff and force her to prove it. And if she does prove it, she has to take people down into the tunnels... at which point you tackle her, bind her hands, and force her to lead you as far away from the explosives as possible (or just show you how to disarm it, but even then you run the hell away just in case).

And as you said, even if the goal is "I'll pay off your debts," you gotta think long and hard about this whole "murder my whole family" thing before you decide that (1) she's telling you the truth and won't murder you as well (which she will do, at least in story form), and (2) you won't get caught afterward, because it's not completely suspicious as hell if your family and your family alone just happens to survive a giant explosion or anything.

Basically for this to have been her plan and for the plan to have actually even come close to working out in reality, everyone would have to be incredibly stupid. Given how clever the adults are repeatedly shown to be, I'm not buying that. Of course in her stories she can make people believe anything she wants by just boiling them down to their character traits ("Natsuhi is proud, so she'll go along with it to preserve her family's honor"). But in reality, Yasu's got a dislocated shoulder and a messed up wig after Krauss body checks her and Kyrie forces her to disarm the bomb at gunpoint.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:41   Link #32243
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Let's think about episode 2 and fake kanon. If we believe Yasu to be culprit and do the killings, I find it pretty unbelievable to even consider guy like Gohda going with the murders. Imo Gohda is one of the guys that seemed always pretty honest and straightforward despite being a dickhead. And if we believe even any part of meta and killings happening with people in the same room, it would be pretty hard to hide the fact that people in fact got killed. I don't see how scenarios like this could be achieved with joyous co-operation.
What if he believed it to be fake until the very end? Stupid goats (mentioned earlier here) explains really well how some/many/all of the murders (could have) happened.
I actually believe that most of them believed it was a fake murder game in the story.
I mean, it's clear the the twilights with Kumasawa and Nanjo were fake during the "fake Kanon" scene, but they were eventually killed. Probably by Genji while Yasu was with George and the Magical Chef.

The only ones who knew what was going on was Yasu, Genji (Who is stupid loyal and doesn't care what happens with him, it seems) and Nanjo, who inspects the bodies. Nanjo is a coward.

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
I know I am probably taking this too far, but wouldn't this mean that instead of discussing the killer we should discuss whether Yasu in real world is twisted psycho or a pure maiden seeking a way to escape from the island?
I think Yasu is a Twisted Maiden.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:42   Link #32244
Dormin
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Pretty much what renall said

I think it would be possible to force a person to do something at gunpoint. I myself believe still that ep 4 and most of the stunning magical phone-calls could be explained with straightforward gunpoint and a order from the culprit.

But in OC Yasu showed Natsuhi and Krauss the bomb before any actual murders happened. I don't know how much time passed between this moment and the actual killings, but I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be any kind of protest against one person and one gun that might have a bomb under the mansion. For culprit to succeed in committing the murders with guarantees of a play-scenario or a threat of detonating the bomb we would need a mansion full of braindead people.

Of course we have people like nanjo, that iirc was shown to accept bribes in the flashbacks, but then again there are many people that I couldn't see as accomplices even if threatened in a way Ryu want's us to believe
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:49   Link #32245
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Well, to be honest, Kyrie/Rudolf, and probably Eva were never "invited" down there, and they are the only real fighters (well, maybe not rudolf, but..). If she invited them down (Krauss and Natsuhi), they would probably first be amazed by all the gold, and then realizing that Yasu is pointing a gun at them, explaining how things will work out.
She could also threaten with the fact that she has "more people" on her side. We know for a fact that Genji would do anything for her.

But then again, this is the Story by Yasu. I very much doubt that she threatened them with the bomb in reality. No, In prime, I think she offered the gold, and asked them for their cooperation for a fake-murder game. And the something went wrong.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:53   Link #32246
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
The only ones who knew what was going on was Yasu, Genji (Who is stupid loyal and doesn't care what happens with him, it seems) and Nanjo, who inspects the bodies. Nanjo is a coward.
Genji's loyalty is completely implausible though, especially in ep1-2. He's literally rewritten into a robot and I cannot possibly believe that his "loyalty" was so extreme that the idea of "blow up the island when the entire family is there, including us" is what Kinzo would've wanted for his children... any of his children.

But it's a story, so whatever, and he doesn't exactly behave that way after that point.
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Of course we have people like nanjo, that iirc was shown to accept bribes in the flashbacks, but then again there are many people that I couldn't see as accomplices even if threatened in a way Ryu want's us to believe
The thing is, if you do trust the way people are portrayed and "have love," it's impossible to believe in a scenario like the ep7 Tea Party. Yet if you "have love" for Yasu, it's hard for me to believe that she'd do something either (because I honestly do think she couldn't bring herself to do "in reality" what she may have thought she could do in stories, even if she planned it initially). So if I don't buy the adults and I don't buy her, who is left exactly?
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:57   Link #32247
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Well, very few people have love for George.
He did it. Someone (Can't remember who, but it was here) even proved that he stole candy from Hideyoshi.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:59   Link #32248
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On the topic of brainless genji, I understand there are heavy implications claiming him to be very loyal towards the master, but there has always been one hole that I thought could be not avoided while discussing genji as a character.

We know that his relationship with kinzo was very loyal. But nowhere I saw genji as mere servant or "furniture". When discussing kinzo with others, genji (maybe in chapter 1 or something) genji openly admits that kinzo was bit crazy. In chapter 3 genji disobeys beatrice and offers shannon and kanon "death" out of mercy. Genji was never blind or a machine.

Let's think about Yasu: when s/he fell off the cliff genji saved her without order from anyone. No one even knew the child was alive. The reason why genji hid the existence of Yasu was, I think clearly stated in the story, that he was afraid of possible incest occurring with kinzo. Doesn't this mean that he clearly had opinion that incest was bad and tried to prevent it? Even if he is described as loyal furniture, having this strong opinion about incest somehow feels like accepting murders would be out of the character for him. How could he accept murders but not incest?
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:04   Link #32249
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing is, if you do trust the way people are portrayed and "have love," it's impossible to believe in a scenario like the ep7 Tea Party. Yet if you "have love" for Yasu, it's hard for me to believe that she'd do something either (because I honestly do think she couldn't bring herself to do "in reality" what she may have thought she could do in stories, even if she planned it initially). So if I don't buy the adults and I don't buy her, who is left exactly?
You can buy Kyrie. Always buy Kyrie.

No no, I am serious here. I don't know if any of you have played higurashi and try not to spoil, but the antagonist is written very similar to kyrie. As when they cries have pretty tender lessons about humanity, the higurashi take on things is "friendship is very good thing and people are nice", to put it bluntly. To get the story working there still needs to be an antagonist force, and in umineko kyrie was pretty much wrote as a cold bitch, even though she was a pure maiden at heart at some point of her twisted life, and capable of murder. I think this kind of character writing is close to Ryu's heart

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Well, very few people have love for George.
He did it. Someone (Can't remember who, but it was here) even proved that he stole candy from Hideyoshi.
George is fat. I like your logic
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:13   Link #32250
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The problem with it being Kyrie is that she's way too intelligent for it. She has no verification for the cash card being worth anything, she has no means of converting the gold into spendable cash, and there's no way she can kill everyone and get away with it.

Also EP7 Tea Party is bullshit, Kyrie spoiled Ange rotten, there's no way she didn't love her.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:26   Link #32251
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Regarding the plausibility of the bomb threat...
First of all, wasn't Yasu said to be equipped with a rifle in OC when confronting Krauss/Natsuhi? I don't remember exactly, but it wouldn't be too hard to assume that they seriously thought their lives were in danger, and any negative response would be BLAM dead.

Secondly, I agree that they should have been smarter about the actual existence of the bomb, but just imagine bomb threats in general: if somebody said there was a bomb in a school, they would take it seriously. If there was believed to be a bomb in an airport, people would lose their shit. A lot of the time these are false positives, but you just can't risk that. Natsuhi and Krauss very well could have asked her to prove it, but they might feel that anything that could upset her might blow up the island. Furthermore, WE know how the bomb mechanism works, but they don't: for all Krauss and Natsuhi know, Yasu could have a trigger in her pocket which could detonate the entire island. Negotiating with terrorists is way harder than it seems, due to panic/lack of composure and vagueness of the situation.

They have the immediate threat to them (the gun) and the likely threat to Jessica (the bomb) so they don't really have much room to argue. Sure, they could fight with her, but is it worth risking the "detonator in her pocket" going off?
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:27   Link #32252
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The problem with it being Kyrie is that she's way too intelligent for it. She has no verification for the cash card being worth anything, she has no means of converting the gold into spendable cash, and there's no way she can kill everyone and get away with it.

Also EP7 Tea Party is bullshit, Kyrie spoiled Ange rotten, there's no way she didn't love her.
I think the funniest thing in umineko is the fact while it tries to be a deconstruction of the detective genre, we can totally skip "real motives" by the causality: anyone that finds the gold has a motive to do the killings. Of course, there are exceptions, like the cousins that didn't seem to be so keen to grab money, but it is clearly written in a way people like kyrie, rudolf, rosa, eva, krauss and maybe even natsuhi with some shit about "preserving the family honor" could pass as a culprit.

Therefore I don't know if Ryu even considered kyrie to be "too smart" to do the killings. The prime world is about loath and hate and DESIRE. For me the killing for gold at least seems plausible motive, totally making more sense than "muh sad life and eternal love catbox". I don't think many people would even consider the problem of converting the gold while handed the opportunity and the loaded gun. Kyrie is emotional woman, up to some degree. Cold and calculative yes, but I wouldn't find it too far-fetched to think she was willing to kill only to get rid of battler.

And about positive view towards kyrie, she said ange was just a tool. If you consider that to be false truth and want to believe in lovable kyrie, then, I guess you have more love than I do.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:33   Link #32253
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And about positive view towards kyrie, she said ange was just a tool. If you consider that to be false truth and want to believe in lovable kyrie, then, I guess you have more love than I do.
The better question is, why wouldn't you consider that false truth? Bern pretty much stated in EP8 that that Fragment was just a way to prepare Ange for the worst, and openly admitted her red about it being the truth was just a wordplay trick. I don't see any reason to take EP7's tea party as having any truth in at all, to be honest - it's the worst kind of story, completely lacking in love. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with me on that.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:34   Link #32254
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Well, I'm not quite sure about that part.
Frankly, I want Kyrie to be a culprit, because I feel it would fit her, and it would make so much sense regarding Eva/Ange.
But taking the whole ep 7 tea party as fact is hard for me. Especially considering how Kyrie spent 18 years being jealous, and towards the end, willing to kill for Rudolf, and when her husband is killed, she's like "K lol".
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:40   Link #32255
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The better question is, why wouldn't you consider that false truth? Bern pretty much stated in EP8 that that Fragment was just a way to prepare Ange for the worst, and openly admitted her red about it being the truth was just a wordplay trick. I don't see any reason to take EP7's tea party as having any truth in at all, to be honest - it's the worst kind of story, completely lacking in love. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with me on that.
It probably is, no doubt. Kyrie was unbelievable nasty, and the whole thing seemed like a "rule of cool" people throwing witty one liners and all that. As Drifloon stated above, ep 7 kyrie was ready to abandon rudolf that was pretty much her driving force. But the thing is, evidence of kyrie being the true culprit make sense. Like, lots of sense. And isn't it like confirmed by Ryu? I don't exactly remember what interview though, but didn't he say while being asked about "the single truth" something like "I thought it was pretty obvious, and the hints are in the relationship of eva and ange". If you want I can try to dig it up from somewhere.

That said I don't consider 7 tea party to be the "actual truth", but I believe things happened somewhat similar.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:42   Link #32256
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I remember that quote, and I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding it. He's never said anything about Kyrie being the culprit specifically; he said that it's "possible to reason" about the truth based on things like Eva and Ange's relationship, but he's also said repeatedly that he chose not to reveal the truth on purpose. It seems that he enjoys hearing people's reasoning and doesn't want to limit that by forcing an answer on them if at all possible.

(Also, it wasn't me who said that about Rudolf; that was Witch of Uncertainty's comment, though of course I agree with it~)
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:43   Link #32257
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I think of the EP7 Tea Party as an outline for Rokkenjima Prime. It didn't have to be Rudolf/Kyrie, it could have been Eva/Hideyoshi or even Krauss/Natsuhi who hijacked the game. SOME people just need to work together to solve the epitaph (maybe), find the gold and Beatrice, people die, the people who are not the culprit and reach the Golden Land are shot at, and everyone except Eva is blown up. It's just in that particular situation, Kyrie/Rudolf is more likely because they are the only ones with working knowledge of rifles. However, I really don't think Kyrie is as vindictive as she appears. THAT, I think, is Bernkastel's true "lie".

I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:50   Link #32258
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I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
Pretty much this for me too. I think people misunderstood that I like kyrie-culprit because wanting to believe in tea party, not the evidence shown.

Also

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
He's never said anything about Kyrie being the culprit specifically; he said that it's "possible to reason" about the truth based on things like Eva and Ange's relationship, but he's also said repeatedly that he chose not to reveal the truth on purpose.
I understand Ryu likes people to make theories, but to me that is pretty much a statement on kyrie-culprit. Of course, I am interpretating it in a way that supports my theory, and I love hearing theories of others, but seriously now guys.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:55   Link #32259
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Well what I referred to a few pages back about arc 7 tea party is that while OC is concerned with the mystery, tea party isn't even doing that.

In a prime world, I sorta doubt murders happened slowly with "witch makeup" as we see in the first few arcs.

Also I've been thinking back about the references to Battler falling/fear of falling as soon as arc 1... don't they hint at Battler's final fate as we we told in arc 8 (and a few other things like how he really hates his name being told right away almost)?

If I assume that's the case it seems to make certain that arc 1 dates from after "prime" and to me puts in question if the author is really whom we thought so far.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:57   Link #32260
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Let's think about Yasu: when s/he fell off the cliff genji saved her without order from anyone. No one even knew the child was alive. The reason why genji hid the existence of Yasu was, I think clearly stated in the story, that he was afraid of possible incest occurring with kinzo. Doesn't this mean that he clearly had opinion that incest was bad and tried to prevent it? Even if he is described as loyal furniture, having this strong opinion about incest somehow feels like accepting murders would be out of the character for him. How could he accept murders but not incest?
And why would he go and reintroduce said person to Kinzo, in the same damn dress that got him so hot and bothered for his other daughter? Like... seriously dude? What was the point of protecting him/her again?
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Regarding the plausibility of the bomb threat...
First of all, wasn't Yasu said to be equipped with a rifle in OC when confronting Krauss/Natsuhi? I don't remember exactly, but it wouldn't be too hard to assume that they seriously thought their lives were in danger, and any negative response would be BLAM dead.
Yasu can't, by her own plans, be with them every waking moment. The instant she is out of sight and out of mind (and remember, they probably know about Shkanon if they're brought into the loop), they go "Oh by the way I've been coerced by Shannon, who it turns out is absolutely batshit insane. All of our lives are in danger, we need to get the hell out of here, run into the forest, and just don't stop running until we're out of island."
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I think the funniest thing in umineko is the fact while it tries to be a deconstruction of the detective genre, we can totally skip "real motives" by the causality: anyone that finds the gold has a motive to do the killings. Of course, there are exceptions, like the cousins that didn't seem to be so keen to grab money, but it is clearly written in a way people like kyrie, rudolf, rosa, eva, krauss and maybe even natsuhi with some shit about "preserving the family honor" could pass as a culprit.
He outright states multiple times that money is a lame and weak thing, and that there's much stronger magic. He also has the adults repeatedly demonstrate throughout the fantasy scenes that there are things more important to them than money or even pride.

The only time he suggests otherwise is a very insidious passage in the ep7 Tea Party where he compares the gold to magic... after outright contradicting this in everything that leads up to it. And the Tea Party is Bern-guided assholery. I mean, you do the math.
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Well, I'm not quite sure about that part.
Frankly, I want Kyrie to be a culprit, because I feel it would fit her, and it would make so much sense regarding Eva/Ange.
But taking the whole ep 7 tea party as fact is hard for me. Especially considering how Kyrie spent 18 years being jealous, and towards the end, willing to kill for Rudolf, and when her husband is killed, she's like "K lol".
That's the problem: Kyrie spent 12 years stewing in jealousy before even considering doing something regrettable. She is not a spontaneous killer. She is a cautious and vindicitive premeditator, and there's nothing to suggest she premeditated the crime as it appears to have happened (if nothing else, she could not have accounted for the explosion).
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I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
  • Eva has some modest reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Battler has little to no reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Yasu has absolutely no reason to cover for Kyrie.
The only people for which this triangle works are probably Battler or George. Yasu wouldn't care that much about covering for the parents for Ange's sake. Battler and Eva probably wouldn't care about families outside their own or Ange's, but Battler probably would care about one of his cousins.

Likewise Battler and Yasu might cover for Yasu or another servant, but Eva has absolutely no reason to do so.

If there was a killer I'm 99% sure it was George, because it makes the absolute most sense of Eva's treatment of Ange after the fact. Mere responsibility to hide the truth from Ange would not lead their relationship to be that toxic. Constantly being reminded that she must choose between the honor of her murderer son or having the daughter she always wanted but can never get without telling her the truth, on the other hand, makes everything about Eva's 1998 psychology make sense to me.

Plus it would make more sense of why Ange could be accepting of it. If it was exactly what she was expecting out of it, why would she be able to get over it eventually?

That or it's an accident, but then I can't make sense of Eva.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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