2012-11-18, 18:33 | Link #61 | |
likes cute things
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Searching for more imoutos
Age: 43
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If you're an anime only viewer then I can understand why you may think that. However, if you're a game player, then I'm really curious as to why you think the game players that are complaining don't know why they're dissatisfied. |
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2012-11-18, 19:20 | Link #62 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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As you might guess, their primary means of competing is to produce shows fast (which lets them adapt to a client's business schedule where other studios are unable) and often on a low budget. It helps that they succeed with moe characters, plus their ability to handle complex production work (R.O.D., Shana, Index) gives them an edge. Quote:
Each studio has its own mission, and they're out to fulfill a particular demand from the industry. That's even true for low priority productions, where fast and cheap are the orders of the day. Investors don't know what will become a hit, so with low priority stuff, it's all about throwing mud on a wall and seeing what sticks. Cheaper is better, and some studios focus their activities around that. Quote:
If VisualArt's had been turned down more than once (which is my gut feeling), they probably got the message. KyoAni's priorities lie elsewhere. Quote:
Shifting back to video games, it's like a developer gaining a reputation on licensed properties and then moving onto their own work. While Bioware could've stuck with Dungeons & Dragons or Star Wars RPGs, they let go of those in favour of Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age (exception = Star Wars: The Old Republic, which was supposed to kick off a major MMORPG division). As a company, their aspiration was to build their own brands. Quote:
Risking too much can potentially destroy a company, so they'll have to balance between their aspirations and their adaptation work. Quote:
The anime business never fails to surprise or teach me new things, which is why I love it. Sometimes ideas that seem obvious to me as a fan become questionable once the interests of investors (usually several, all with different agendas and motivations), producers, and copyright holders come into play. Whether I like the result or not, I'm trying to gain understanding into why things work out the way they do. Quote:
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2012-11-18, 19:43 | Link #63 | |||
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Off the top of my head, I can't think of many anime adaptations of very popular source material properties that didn't go on to be successful anime shows. Heck, even some properties that were widely criticized for being unfaithful (Fate/Stay Night, Shakuga no Shana's second season) went on to be commercially successful. Quote:
A KyoAni made LB! would almost certainly have pulled down 20K or more sales, based on the proven and consistent track record that we see with Air, Kanon, and Clannad. It would have reinforced the strong brand identity that KyoAni had built in large part due to their Key work. I think that this would certainly be to the benefit of both Key and KyoAni. So I firmly disagree with your argument that KyoAni was right in turning down VisualArt. Quote:
Prior to Chuunibyou, KyoAni's only "anime original" was Munto, which was a rare commercial failure for KyoAni. So KyoAni's exceptionally strong repudiation (and we see this in various anime fan-polls, not just on places like Anime Suki) has long rested on "someone else's products". A year ago this time, who had the better reputation: P.A. Works, with a few prominent and successful anime originals, or KyoAni, who's only anime original was Munto? Would you argue that P.A. Works was seen as a stronger "content company" than KyoAni? I respect how knowledgeable you are about the anime industry, but I do think there are some things that you are underestimating the value and importance of (or, conversely, I think you might be overestimating the importance of an anime studio having some anime originals to its name - The general lack of them certainly doesn't appear to have held KyoAni back over the past few years).
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-11-18 at 20:07. Reason: Clarifying argument |
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2012-11-18, 21:09 | Link #64 | |
likes cute things
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Searching for more imoutos
Age: 43
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It's kinda like revealing the name of Saber's sword in Fate/Stay Night or telling people Archer's real name. It's much too heavy of a spoiler. |
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2012-11-18, 22:34 | Link #65 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Also, popular and well-selling doesn't mean every investor benefits a lot. A manga publisher invests to sell print media, so success that's localized to anime may not be of great interest to them. It's a problem that many visual novels face.......with proper treatment, Little Busters may be an expected hit, but do partner companies believe they have much to gain? Quote:
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In short, they have a broader vision than what some fans may like. Perhaps this will bite them in the ass one day, but with Chuunibyou, they have little to complain about. Quote:
If that's what they want to do, then more power to them. I disagree that letting LB! go was dumb when the alternative is turning out well. Adaptations aren't the only way to please fans, and the decision on Little Busters isn't going to make or break their business. Quote:
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2012-11-18, 23:45 | Link #66 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.
Much of Clannad was very similar to little busters in that the side routes were mostly forgettable, with few highlights. You also either rolled with the slapstick humor or it whiffed completely. It's funny for me to see the very same complaints I levied against Clannad much to that fanbase's chagrin be said here and elsewhere. This is putting aside source material fans who always seem to be displeased no matter what show it is.
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2012-11-19, 05:06 | Link #67 | |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
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If this anime is inferior to Kyoani versions of other KEY VN...why would fault fall on KEY? |
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2012-11-19, 06:50 | Link #68 | |
はりゃほれうまうーっ!
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I agree to a certain extent though. I think Nichijou and the moderate success that is Hyouka has changed them. They want sustained profits so they can continue to adapt whatever the heck they want. Chuunibyou looks like a money grab to me, if it's successful I'd speculate that they'll probably try and adapt even more shows that go against the grain of what we're used to seeing by them. Maybe if they have a lot of bombs we'd actually see a real new season of Haruhi (Not that Endless eight junk.) I mean there's no way a new season of Lucky Star or Haruhi with it's 20k+ sales and the demand it creates for character goods(For new characters as well.), that would make delving into shonen comedies or slice of life mysteries make sense? I think they take on different types of works, instead of hammering their big successes, to satisfy the staffs creative urges, not their pockets. Is this too naive? Has Kyoani ever talked about why they decided to go with Nichijou or Hyouka? If I were concerned about the companies well being, I don't see how I would ever make that decision, maybe Nichijou if I wanted to test my boundaries on what I could make while still being successful, but then to come back with a light mystery seems off to me. Now for some LB talk (No spoilers, but I will talk about typical VN structure.). This episode was probably my favorite episode so far since episode 2. The preview for Ep 8 is all about Kud, so it looks like they're finally going to introduce all of the characters properly now. I loved it when Kyoani would tease all of the characters and their routes inside of just one episode. They'd get a little bit of every heroine which is much truer to how a session playing the VN feels. I actually get disappointed sometimes transitioning into a characters route, there was never any transition here since it was so short! This episode is still lacking a true common route feel, but this is at least close. They should have been doing this from the start. This show is based on a VN, and as VNs typically go, you get to know all the characters first before you have to choose one and focus on their route. To cram the common route into three episodes or skip most of the common route is just a recipe for disaster. A good VN adaptation just can't enter a character's route so early. Especially with one episode perplexingly thrown in there that focuses solely on another heroine. The way they chopped the scenes up and allocated them in the first six eps, IMO is a disaster. At least as far as it pertains to be being as good as the VN from my standpoint. But it's all about expectations, I loved Komari's route in the VN. Not so much Haruka's route, so maybe I'll enjoy that? who knows. For as much flack that J.C. Staff is getting, now this is ironic - I'm finding Sakurasou to be my favorite show so far this season. To me, the animation isn't the most important thing. Just from watching LB, I can tell you that comedic timing, scene placement, character development, plot development are far more important. This episode had much better comedic timing on the most part, but the scenes before the OP still had far too many lame jokes, a really good anime shouldn't have to make me disregard the first 4 minutes to enjoy the rest. If I were the type to roll my eyes, this anime adaptation would make my eyes roll way too much. Some of the jokes are inherently lame, but there's a way to make them funnier, that Key and Kyoani are experts at. J.C. does some good things too though. I think my favorite thing about the anime so far is the ED sequence, probably the most artistic thing I've seen from J.C.'s LB so far. On a sidenote, I preordered the First print limited edition of Vol.1 from Amiami. They're "unable to obtain a copy from their usual distributors" maybe that doesn't mean anything about the sales, but that would seem to imply that the usual distributors have sold out. Maybe a good thing for sales? I like Chuunibyou, but it'd give me some sort of sick satisfaction to see LB do better than Chuu2byo. Sorry. I made a tldr. Last edited by Ceral; 2012-11-19 at 07:01. |
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2012-11-19, 07:10 | Link #69 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Regarding this episode, I thought it worked mostly pretty well. However, I felt the pacing was kinda loose. Still, it was not bad. I always find Masato hilarious. |
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2012-11-19, 07:33 | Link #70 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I am sure all the negative comments about LB is more about the anime adaptation itself rather than the original work. Plus i don't see any relations between "poor/average animation" of the LB anime made by J.C. staff and the company that originally brought us LB: Key. That's like saying that Minato soft is a bad company because of the MajiKoi anime or Navel for the OreTsuba anime. I also think that you might not have read any Key VN's when you made that comment, seeing that the "Key games" are more praised for their story rather than the art (atleast I am not that much of a fan for the art in their games) I think that some people forgot that the first Kanon anime was animated by Toei and it did end up selling very well, despite that the animation was far from really good. edit: the current discussion doesn't seem directly related to episode 7 anymore, but it looks more like something for the general discussion Last edited by hyl; 2012-11-19 at 07:45. |
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2012-11-19, 18:18 | Link #71 | |
On a mission
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But you can't really expect someone to repeat the same repetitious content 4 times over. What is this? Diablo 3? Though for me personally none of them really worked til the 1/2 point. Or I guess 1/4 for Clannad.
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2012-11-19, 20:23 | Link #72 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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I played Little Busters, and while they certainly take liberties here with the order in which they adapt the content (Which some people have criticized and well time will tell if their choices are the right one), the content itself that is being adapted can be criticized for being almost TOO faithful. Then there are several complaints throughout, by both source readers and some anime viewers, about some of the humor not being funny, for the drama lacking impact, or other things. What is a lot of this attributed to? JC staff. They even make backhanded comments like "if only that other studio" (Who rejected this project) was doing it... I don't care if people want to criticize the anime here. I just find it funny how something that's awfully similar in style and content to clannad gets smeared while that anime got praised. This is why I raised the point of kyoani exceptionalism, since it seems they get praise for doing things that are really no different from what we see here. I won't argue that KyoAni would probably do much better visuals, but as far as story composition and direction goes... I don't believe we'd see much different. Quote:
I was just trying to express bemusement at the apparent negativity of this show for many of the same reasons I found myself disoriented when I first watched Clannad. Not saying the criticisms are unfair. I thought Komari's arc was bad. As for this episode, well there isn't a whole lot to say. Lots of slapstick humor and more cutesy KEY character exposition. Very typical stuff for them.
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2012-11-19, 20:53 | Link #73 |
はりゃほれうまうーっ!
Join Date: Nov 2007
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All you have to do is watch Kanon 2002 vs 2006 to know how much a difference things like timing, presentation, and adding more scenes and doing them right helps. IIRC both were faithful to the original. 2002 was enjoyable enough but 2006 is in a different ballpark. Toei just makes everything cheesy as hell. I've said it before in the first or second episode thread, J.C.s adaptation reminds me of Toei's adaptations. I love the VN but the anime is average so far. Komari's route is beautiful and magical to me in the VN, even if I read it now, but the whole Komari Komari Ganbare in the anime was lame.
As to whether Key makes only average VNs. let's just put it this way, Kanon 2002 didn't do 10kish sales because the anime was a masterpiece, it's because the VN is so great and has so many admirers. |
2012-11-20, 07:17 | Link #74 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I used the examples of Majikoi and OreTsuba, because those 2 VN's had excellent story that got "butchered" in the adaptation. Quote:
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2012-11-20, 19:02 | Link #75 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Talking more about it would require discussing it in the comparison spoiler thread, but several of us already noted how they changed things, to the point bigger concerns are at stake than simply "quality issues". Quote:
I for one would rather have something more akin to "showing HP bar" which would actually make the fighting scene more of a "game" than being just "action" going on. Also, Ceral took a very good example: Kanon 2002 and 2006 are completely different, despite both are faithful (although some parts in Toei version are totally whacky, such like in Mai's route). It is really the direction that changes a toncrap, and frankly, LB anime has a lot of miss parts I doubt it is just the original novel.
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2012-11-20, 20:35 | Link #76 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Regarding the composition of the story, it's probably worth mentioning again that all of the episodes so far have been written by same writer who also did the overall adaptation/story planning, which is itself extremely unusual for a 2-cour (+) show. (I don't know if she will end up doing the script for the entire 26-episode run, plus the next season, but if so, it'd be pretty-damn impressive for a TV anime.) So I think the elements that people don't like about the script treatment are probably attributable a lot (entirely?) to the lead writer. And, as a reminder of the conversations that happened before the anime started airing, the writer does not work for J.C.Staff and has never worked on a J.C.Staff show before; from what Key stated, she was selected with their approval based on her work on long-running adaptations of classic/well-known literature.
As much as people complain about the "budget", spending the time and money necessary to have a single writer do so much of the script for a weekly anime requires a lot of trust and dedication. It'd be a lot more financially-efficient (if they just didn't care) to have someone generate a rough outline and have sub-writers do the episode scripts, as happens for most shows. We also know that Key themselves said in the past that they had come up with the "trick" to make a TV adaptation of Little Busters work as far as the story goes, so we don't know how much of the story layout was also done under their influence, not to mention the have also said that they are also consulting on the writing on an on-going basis as well. So all that to say... I think that a) they probably do have a plan in terms of what they're doing with the story and b) whatever that plan is doesn't sound like it has much to do with J.C.Staff. So I tend to agree that even just changing the animation production studio may not have changed the aspects of the story presentation that some people dislike. (However, I tend to think that some people may be more forgiving of the story issues if a) they had more faith in the production company, and b) if there were pretty animation to talk about. I think there is a lot of angst among some VN readers right now because the anime is not as popular as they think it deserves to be, and they are looking for people to blame.) Now the way that script is adapted into anime (the storyboarding, direction, etc.) is obviously more under J.C. Staff's control. I think it's interesting that three of the seven episodes so far have had their storyboarding done by the main director, which is what was expected based on him having been chosen (he was seen as a very "hands-on" director). Perhaps the nature of this is also that, if you don't really gel with the main director's style, you'll just have to live with it, because his style has a large influence on the way everything goes. If this does indeed end up being a split 52-episode show (which is how it's looking), I suppose people will likely get used to it eventually (or they won't). Regarding the comparisons between Sakurasou and Little Busters in terms of production values... I honestly would be surprised if one show has that much of a bigger budget than the other (notwithstanding that Little Busters may be scheduled for double the episode count, so would have needed double the investment from the production partners). I really do think it's a) the experience and skill of the staff involved, and b) the techniques used to mask the budget. The digital compositing and 2D effects in Sakurasou are top-notch and adds a sort of "shininess" to everything that Little Busters doesn't have. Meanwhile, Little Busters commits the "sin" of falling back on some really well-known and much-ridiculed shortcut techniques (like speed lines and still frames) that are obvious, while they seem to focus a bit more on things that are a bit less commented-on or obvious (like smoother character animation). Anyway, it'll be nice when the story picks up enough steam that this will be the main focus rather than the production values.
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2012-11-20, 22:18 | Link #77 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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I also hope that the constant criticisms get toned down at least by Episode 13. For some reason, looking for a discussion amongst anime-only watchers and stumbling upon six or so episode discussions teeming with negative opinions can be quite disheartening.
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2012-11-21, 09:49 | Link #78 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Still, it seems that alot of Anime Only viewers are dropping in left and right. The only reason why I haven't dropped this yet is because I looked up Little Busters on TVtropes a year or so ago. But most anime-only viewers with a "No Spoiler" viewing policy seems to be dropping, or are on the verge of dropping LB, judging by the content of the recent Episdodic Threads.
The worse case scenario is actually, that criticism for Episode 13 would be toned down, BECAUSE the most critical Anime viewers decided to abandon Little Busters. And it has happened for quite a few anime too mind you: for example, Medaka Box First season came under amazing amounts of flak, which slacken off towards the end (as well as in it's second season), largely because most of the Flak issuers dropped that show by then. Ultimately, of course, the Fate of the LB adaptation is in the hands of the Japanese Viewer market, and I wonder whether the mood towards the adaptation is just as vitriolic over there. It's one thing for the English Speaking Animesuki, MAL or Anime Bloggers listed on Animenano to be dropping or condemning LB. But it's fate, as it is with all anime adaptations, hangs on the Japanese Market, and not so much the English one. |
2012-11-21, 19:13 | Link #79 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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^ One side of me is saying "good riddance" for those who haven't truly enjoyed the series despite its clear flaws in direction, but the other side mourns the lack of a decent discussion for the series.
I can probably say that Little Busters! is the biggest tragedy of the Autumn 2012 anime season.
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