AnimeSuki Forums

yukito · 2009-07-25, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Something that bugs me about Nanjo: He's too important to too many theories...

I'm not sure if it has been discussed here yet (I'm sure it has though), but in EP3 there were some clues that pointed to Nanjo not being at Rokkenjima. He did survive until the end, but if I remember correctly, there were at least 3 scenes where a character says something like "Now there are only me, person-a, person-b and person-c alive." (...and Nanjo would be person-d) or "Now all the survivors are of the Ushiromiya family." etc. So they sometimes acted like Nanjo was not there at all.
It's hard to believe that Nanjo is not there though, but then again, his death was the biggest mystery in EP3. Also it sort of compliments my idea that there are only 16 people on Rokkenjima (16 chess pieces.).

Edit. Btw, does someone have a list of all the red truths from all of the 4 SN's? I'd like to check what red truths there are concerning Nanjo.

maximilianjenus · 2009-07-25, 10:52

I will do a small summary in one of ryukishi's interviews as he was talking about mistery novels and comparing them to higurashi-umineko:
He said that mistery novels can give you all the info since the start, so you can solve the mistery, those are the easier ones (agatha christie is a good example of them), then the next most difficult ones, don't show you some info then the detective comes and solves the case ( conan doyle's do that a lot, higurashi is more like that as well); after that come the ones that give you fake info, which is like umineko.

I mention this because there is no need to explain certain scenes, scenes that create contradictions can be ignored as lies, we just have to know which ones are those.

Knicknevin · 2009-07-25, 11:02

I wonder how seriously we can take the events as they happen in the anime. Alot of things are happening with minor differences, but still...

Spoiler for Anime Episode 4:

If we assume that the group of killers is composed of Jessica, Kanon, Shannon (maybe- if she's even alive/exists), Maria (not a knowing accomplice, she thinks she's helping Beatrice) and Nanjo (bribed or extorted with that sick grandkid of his), Episode 1, 2 and 4, and some of the crimes in 3, can pretty much fall into place. Genji and Kumasawa might also be part of the plot.

Kanon's death in Episode 1 could have easily been faked under the conditions we've seen. And in Episode 4 we have no real confirmation of when most of the conspirators, including Jessica, died, or in what order.

Some of the crimes in Episode 3 may have been carried out by Eva or some of the other adults (I personally think Rudolph might have been the one to kill Rosa and Maria when he 'went to go look for them'), but a few, like the first twilight, George, and maybe Natsuhi and Krauss, may have been carried out by Nanjo on Jessica's orders.

Episode 2 is a puzzle if we assume Jessica is the ringleader since she dies early and the killings continue, but there is one suspicious point- when Beatrice is talking about Jessica's corpse, she lapses out of the red and describes her as a corpse in white. But she described Jessica as a corpse in red just a few sentences before, so I don't know what the significance there is. But if Beato was being extra tricky, it is possible that Jessica was actually faking her death.

We can argue about the 'Why?'s all day, but if Jessica is the coordinator of the killings, with Kanon as her main accomplice/killer, Maria corroborating the scenario she planned by delivering letters and answering questions about magic, Nanjo drawing magic circles and staking victims, and the rest of the servants possibly taking up more disposable roles, that could answer for a whole lot.

ghost_zero5 · 2009-07-25, 12:33

@maximilianjenus:
Didn't we already have some of those "fake" ones?
For example the Kinzo scenes, after all in the last Tea Party Ep. Beatrice stated it in red that Kinzo was dead at the beginning of every "game".
I also think that the information regarding another Battler was wrong. I think Beatrice was just pissed with him not remembering and she therefore wanted to quit the game and used the method to deny his capability of being her opponent BUT she tricked him there. I actually think that he was Kyrie's child (miscarriage) and Asuma actually had the miscarriage and there was something like a mistake.

Btw.: There are also those detective novels that don't show you everything at the beginning but gather more and more pieces/facts - before the detective solves the case - and if you use them, you can interpret pieces/facts from the beginning differently. Actually, I think this is the case here too. After all he stated that you might replay Ep1 after going through Ep5 because of the new hints.

EDIT:
I have a question regarding episode 3 when Eva-"Witch" used so many red lines. Wasn't one of them kinda strange (like she said it accidentely because she hasn't thought over it)?
I mean she said something like: "The murders were all commited by other humans and not by e.g. accidents or animals or ...". Not exactly that way but something like this.
Isn't this actually denying the possibility of a witch doing those murders? After all a witch shouldn't be counted as human, otherwise the people number count Beatrice stated in red would be wrong too because a witch would have to be included there. I know this doesn't solve how the murders were commited but Battler should have been able to use this against Eva-"Witch" and Beatrice by including the usage of a "Hempel's Raven" and "Devil's Proof". "Hempel's Raven" for the exclusion of a witch doing this murders, therefore it was a human and the "Devil's Proof" for stating that though I don't know how it was done, it doesn't deny the fact that it could be done by a human (which can only be used here because of "Hempel's Raven" before because that conclusion that it need to be a human was already reached).
Wouldn't this have been checkmate? This I concluded a few lines afterwards. At least before Beato stepped in. I have been wondering about this since then - actually I just have played Ep3 and Ep4 now as I found out about this and had the time for it).
Or was this a bit wrong translated?

Renall · 2009-07-25, 14:15

The safe person has to be someone from outside the family, or one of the adults in the family itself. It is completely implausible that, say, Jessica could set up such secretive accounts with that much money in them without her father or mother having any knowledge of it. Unless you want to posit that she's the one actually embezzling... which, once again, requires Krauss to pretty much be an idiot.

rogerpepitone · 2009-07-25, 14:44

@NickNevin: I think that if you take most any set of four/five conspirators, you can easily explain almost all of the crimes.

gtr06 · 2009-07-25, 15:50

What did ANGE see in the boatman's house? I am still confused by this. I remember them saying something about magic.

Saerianne · 2009-07-25, 16:13

The current guess is that it was Sakutaro.

gtr06 · 2009-07-25, 16:16

Guess Rosa should have been a toy designer instead.

k//eternal · 2009-07-25, 16:50

Quote:

`#ff0000That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal#ffffff! `@/
`#ff0000Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only#ffffff, `\
`.........ah,`@` ...............u,`@` ...............ah......"`\

It seems like she sort of is; it's confirmed in red that Rosa made Sakutaro for Maria's birthday, but also apparently he wasn't the only one. So it seems like he went into mass production sometime later.

Since Rosa's financial situation was looking a little messy, maybe she decided to make a quick buck off selling toys?

TsundereCake · 2009-07-25, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

It seems like she sort of is; it's confirmed in red that Rosa made Sakutaro for Maria's birthday, but also apparently he wasn't the only one. So it seems like he went into mass production sometime later.

When was this said O.o?

k//eternal · 2009-07-25, 17:04

Those lines? They're when Ange goes to wreck the Golden Land.

Marion · 2009-07-25, 17:06

She could have also made another one, feeling guilty about ripping apart the old one, but never gave it to Maria before October 4th came along or left it on the boat (which explains why the ship captain had it)

luckyssol · 2009-07-25, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

What did ANGE see in the boatman's house? I am still confused by this. I remember them saying something about magic.

Mabye it was a picture of the other Battler or Battler's mom. It may not be revealed until later answer arcs though.

k//eternal · 2009-07-25, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

She could have also made another one, feeling guilty about ripping apart the old one, but never gave it to Maria before October 4th came along or left it on the boat (which explains why the ship captain had it)

That's also a possibility (and would certainly paint Rosa in a more positive light). She might have intended to give it to Maria as they headed back home, as well.

It definitely has been said that Rosa is the only one who can revive Sakutaro, having made his "shell", so it would make sense.

gtr06 · 2009-07-25, 17:46

Wait a sec, if I recall no one else except ANGE, Mammon and Sakutaru could see it. How could it be another toy?

Kitsu · 2009-07-25, 17:53

It's not that no one could see it, but that the captain and Amakusa just didn't knew what was so special and wrong about what she saw

k//eternal · 2009-07-25, 17:53

It could just be that nobody else thought it was significant.

EDIT: Haha, Kitsu, you ninja.

Ttak · 2009-07-25, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Spoiler for big quote:

Well, she could say that she reanimated one dead person or controlled someone's mind to kill the others. With that, a human commited the murders without denying witches. (of course she wouldn't say it in red, it would be a stalemate)

unconfirmed · 2009-07-25, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Regarding "Beatrice = Love": Why is it "Love" for Beatrice? She doesn't actually seem to be someone who does something because of "Love". Except maybe that "different" Beatrice we saw in Episode 4 (before they switched again).

No, Beatrice isn't someone who uses the magic OF love. In that particular theory, Beatrice IS love. It's as if you looked up the word "love" in the dictionary and it tells you that it means "Beatrice". I personally like this theory and think it might have some credibility, since love is fickle, love can spawn jealousy and kill, and love can save; all of which describe Beato perfectly.

2009-07-25, 11:02	Link #2723
Knicknevin Member Join Date: Jun 2009	I wonder how seriously we can take the events as they happen in the anime. Alot of things are happening with minor differences, but still... Spoiler for Anime Episode 4: Kanon's 'death' in this episode pretty much follows along with the scene as I had described it once- Everyone but Jessica and Nanjo left the room so Nanjo could work. We also see that Kanon's jacket was off while the others were still present, but Nanjo was hovering over the wound so we couldn't see. Then he and Jessica report to the others a bit later that Kanon died. If we assume that the group of killers is composed of Jessica, Kanon, Shannon (maybe- if she's even alive/exists), Maria (not a knowing accomplice, she thinks she's helping Beatrice) and Nanjo (bribed or extorted with that sick grandkid of his), Episode 1, 2 and 4, and some of the crimes in 3, can pretty much fall into place. Genji and Kumasawa might also be part of the plot. Kanon's death in Episode 1 could have easily been faked under the conditions we've seen. And in Episode 4 we have no real confirmation of when most of the conspirators, including Jessica, died, or in what order. Some of the crimes in Episode 3 may have been carried out by Eva or some of the other adults (I personally think Rudolph might have been the one to kill Rosa and Maria when he 'went to go look for them'), but a few, like the first twilight, George, and maybe Natsuhi and Krauss, may have been carried out by Nanjo on Jessica's orders. Episode 2 is a puzzle if we assume Jessica is the ringleader since she dies early and the killings continue, but there is one suspicious point- when Beatrice is talking about Jessica's corpse, she lapses out of the red and describes her as a corpse in white. But she described Jessica as a corpse in red just a few sentences before, so I don't know what the significance there is. But if Beato was being extra tricky, it is possible that Jessica was actually faking her death. We can argue about the 'Why?'s all day, but if Jessica is the coordinator of the killings, with Kanon as her main accomplice/killer, Maria corroborating the scenario she planned by delivering letters and answering questions about magic, Nanjo drawing magic circles and staking victims, and the rest of the servants possibly taking up more disposable roles, that could answer for a whole lot. Last edited by Knicknevin; 2009-07-25 at 11:17. Reason: Clarity

2009-07-25, 12:33	Link #2724
ghost_zero5 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	@maximilianjenus: Didn't we already have some of those "fake" ones? For example the Kinzo scenes, after all in the last Tea Party Ep. Beatrice stated it in red that Kinzo was dead at the beginning of every "game". I also think that the information regarding another Battler was wrong. I think Beatrice was just pissed with him not remembering and she therefore wanted to quit the game and used the method to deny his capability of being her opponent BUT she tricked him there. I actually think that he was Kyrie's child (miscarriage) and Asuma actually had the miscarriage and there was something like a mistake. Btw.: There are also those detective novels that don't show you everything at the beginning but gather more and more pieces/facts - before the detective solves the case - and if you use them, you can interpret pieces/facts from the beginning differently. Actually, I think this is the case here too. After all he stated that you might replay Ep1 after going through Ep5 because of the new hints. EDIT: I have a question regarding episode 3 when Eva-"Witch" used so many red lines. Wasn't one of them kinda strange (like she said it accidentely because she hasn't thought over it)? I mean she said something like: "The murders were all commited by other humans and not by e.g. accidents or animals or ...". Not exactly that way but something like this. Isn't this actually denying the possibility of a witch doing those murders? After all a witch shouldn't be counted as human, otherwise the people number count Beatrice stated in red would be wrong too because a witch would have to be included there. I know this doesn't solve how the murders were commited but Battler should have been able to use this against Eva-"Witch" and Beatrice by including the usage of a "Hempel's Raven" and "Devil's Proof". "Hempel's Raven" for the exclusion of a witch doing this murders, therefore it was a human and the "Devil's Proof" for stating that though I don't know how it was done, it doesn't deny the fact that it could be done by a human (which can only be used here because of "Hempel's Raven" before because that conclusion that it need to be a human was already reached). Wouldn't this have been checkmate? This I concluded a few lines afterwards. At least before Beato stepped in. I have been wondering about this since then - actually I just have played Ep3 and Ep4 now as I found out about this and had the time for it). Or was this a bit wrong translated? Last edited by ghost_zero5; 2009-07-25 at 13:21.

2009-07-25, 17:53	Link #2737
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	It's not that no one could see it, but that the captain and Amakusa just didn't knew what was so special and wrong about what she saw __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-07-25, 10:52	Link #2722
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	I will do a small summary in one of ryukishi's interviews as he was talking about mistery novels and comparing them to higurashi-umineko: He said that mistery novels can give you all the info since the start, so you can solve the mistery, those are the easier ones (agatha christie is a good example of them), then the next most difficult ones, don't show you some info then the detective comes and solves the case ( conan doyle's do that a lot, higurashi is more like that as well); after that come the ones that give you fake info, which is like umineko. I mention this because there is no need to explain certain scenes, scenes that create contradictions can be ignored as lies, we just have to know which ones are those.

2009-07-25, 14:15	Link #2725
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	The safe person has to be someone from outside the family, or one of the adults in the family itself. It is completely implausible that, say, Jessica could set up such secretive accounts with that much money in them without her father or mother having any knowledge of it. Unless you want to posit that she's the one actually embezzling... which, once again, requires Krauss to pretty much be an idiot.

2009-07-25, 14:44	Link #2726
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	@NickNevin: I think that if you take most any set of four/five conspirators, you can easily explain almost all of the crimes.

2009-07-25, 15:50	Link #2727
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	What did ANGE see in the boatman's house? I am still confused by this. I remember them saying something about magic.

2009-07-25, 16:13	Link #2728
Saerianne cackle Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 29	The current guess is that it was Sakutaro.

2009-07-25, 16:16	Link #2729
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	Guess Rosa should have been a toy designer instead.

2009-07-25, 17:04	Link #2732
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Those lines? They're when Ange goes to wreck the Golden Land.

2009-07-25, 17:06	Link #2733
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	She could have also made another one, feeling guilty about ripping apart the old one, but never gave it to Maria before October 4th came along or left it on the boat (which explains why the ship captain had it)

2009-07-25, 17:46	Link #2736
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	Wait a sec, if I recall no one else except ANGE, Mammon and Sakutaru could see it. How could it be another toy?

2009-07-25, 17:53	Link #2738
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	It could just be that nobody else thought it was significant. EDIT: Haha, Kitsu, you ninja.