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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 34 | 28.57% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 35 | 29.41% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 37 | 31.09% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 12 | 10.08% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 0.84% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-11-30, 16:11 | Link #241 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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It's pretty explicit in the novels (in this scene) that she was raised since she was a baby as nothing but a piece of meat whose exclusive worth to be marry off someday. That was her "only use" for her life. She did not have regrets or could have ask questions or object, because she never had a fucking choice or say in anything. Therefore, reading the "omg how could she betray her would be husband*!!1" stuff here is more than a little uncomfortable. I'm slightly annoyed the anime did not make an effort to portray this, since it's pretty explicit what was going on her head by the time when she talked to Lancer in the novels. Oh no, instead they just show us Kayneth, the guy who had everything until now, mangangst and Lancer's. Sure, nice to see their pain represented too, but it was biased against Sola who, for once in her entire life, could get something.
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2011-11-30, 16:19 | Link #242 | |
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The two children aren't fond of being basically forced together by Joe taking his kids over to Bob's place every second weekend, and Bob taking his kids over to Joe's place ever other weekend. John and Selena both initially feel resentful over their fathers managing their lives like this, and hence they don't get off to the best of starts with one another. However, over time, John and Selena relent to their respective father's obvious wishes for them, and they become at least cordial and reasonably friendly with one another. If asked, each would admit that the other is "a friend" to him/her. Now, at this juncture, do John and Selena hold any kind of obligation to one another? Granted, they were basically forced together, but they nonetheless eventually went along with it, and so I think that calls for more "obligation" than one would feel towards a complete stranger, at the very least. It doesn't mean that either John or Selena should feel totally bound by their relationship, but whatever caused it to occur, they're now in one, and that counts for something, imo. Now, is Kayneth and Sola comparable to my hypothetical example above? Going by the anime alone I see some similarities (Kayneth and Sola certainly seemed reasonably cordial and friendly with one another in Sola's first appearance in this anime). Maybe the novels tell a different story, and I respect that, but I'm going by the anime here.
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2011-11-30, 16:25 | Link #243 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Read above what I said about Sola. That would work if John was the one who agreed with Selena's father, as he works with him in his business, high position, in control of his life and family (he's Lord El-Melloi, he can do whatever he wants). He also happens to love her. And Selena was raised to shut as only living to marry off one day someone they choose, anything else wouldn't matter, that's her purpose in life. She's alive to marry and birth powerful magi kids. She shouldn't have expectations of anything else. The anime should tell the same story, the only difference is that they didn't show us her POV and background (maybe in the future or included in cut scenes?). Also Sola wasn't cordial, she was criticizing him in a passive-aggressive way. Lancer had to defend him.
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2011-11-30, 16:40 | Link #244 |
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Given that a few alterations made by you makes it all fit, I think it's rather harsh to call it a "terrible analogy".
I think you're being a bit one-sided here. Sola's actions in the narrative are understandable, but Kayneth had reason to think that she's supportive of him and cares about him. If she never voices displeasure with the marriage arrangement how is he supposed to know any different, or view their fiance status as counting for nothing? And as even you admit, at least Kayneth genuinely loves her. The point I'm making with my analogy is that it's fine to find fault in what causes a relationship to arise in the first place, but once a person in a relationship has reason to view it as a legit one, that does carry with it some significance, in my view. If I felt that somebody else viewed me as a reliable acquaintance, friend, lover, confidant, etc... and if I go along with that person's view of me, then yeah, I'd feel some sense of obligation towards that other person. Even if we were brought together through some sort of coercion or artificial means. To me, this is just basic human decency, and it runs deeper than cultural considerations alone. Edit: Her tone struck me as playful. A wife-to-be gently ribbing her husband-to-be, hoping that it'll get him to shape up a bit. You could find the same thing in numerous happy marriages.
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2011-11-30, 16:52 | Link #245 | ||
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They are magi. They don't have human decency (exceptions aside, like Waver, who you know hates the Association ). They would have let Caster do those horrible actions to children if they hadn't been rewarded by the command seals. Why do you think Risei announced the prize? In fact, for magi, Kayneth's right now is nothing more than dead meat. He's worth less than Sola, the spare child. Her obligation is to be engaged to a powerful magus... He's not a magus anymore. Sola, in case you miss it the first time I said it, doesn't love anything (aside of Lancer. I'll say that she doesn't even have a sense of self-worth, which explains some of her thoughts). She doesn't feel: she's numb and cold. Because she wasn't raised as a person, she was raised as a pawn since the day she was born. For the first time in her life, she's experiencing human warmth and personal happiness. It's stated in the novels pretty clearly. That she was frozen inside until she met Lancer. Also Kayneth knows that Sola doesn't love him. It's hilarious to think that the engagement would be broken because she objects. Look, when I say that her purpose is to marry is that if she rebels, well why she's alive for? At best, she would be given to the Association for 'research' or something. This isn't Harry Potter. Quote:
All relationships are unrequited. Speaking on this, why nobody says that Kayneth should feel gratitude to Lancer. He saved his life and yet he hates his guts. Where is his obligation and human decency? He's just a magus. Furthermore, Sola's desired loyalty from Lancer was also unrequited (no formal contract was established). Even if they are all allies, but their relationships fall apart. The cracks are everywhere.
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-30 at 17:09. |
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2011-11-30, 18:28 | Link #246 | |
Counter Force
Join Date: Nov 2007
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2011-11-30, 18:34 | Link #247 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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...Why would Sola have to be with Lancer, when Lancer doesn't even like her that way ? Another thing is that it seems to me that you keep arguing that Sola is doing the sensible thing by taking Kayneth's command spells to continue the Holy Grail War. Yes, I agree that it was sensible of her- if that was her intention in the first place. I think it's been implied already that her main motivation for getting those command spells was to get Diarmuid's attention. Don't believe me? Try reading the novels, especially...the third one, I think. (I can't say anymore because I don't know if certain spoilers are allowed on this thread.) And yes yes, I agree that Sola wasn't born in the most comfortable of positions in life. But think of it this way- she could've gotten far, far worse. She could've ended up with a fiancee who didn't care for her at all, and actually DID treat her like a piece of meat. But no, she ended up with someone who really did love her. Now, I'm not saying that she was obligated to love him back, but I really, really don't like how she's forcing her feelings onto Diarmuid. All the poor guy wants to do is be able to serve his master and not have the past repeat itself. Yeah...Sola's actions DEFINITELY will end well for him. [/sarcasm] It would be a different matter entirely- and a different argument from me- if Lancer actually DID like her back. But the fact is, he doesn't. And with those command spells attached to Sola, I'd say he's somewhat in danger of being in her position now, should she choose to force her feelings further.
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2011-11-30, 18:44 | Link #248 | ||||
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First, did you miss my previous points? I said there that Sola's suggestion was logical and sensible since they are in the middle of a dangerous war, but her motivations were wrong. I said also that Kayneth's overreaction was motivated by the same illogical trail of thinking: unrequited love & magi bs upbringing. When people are ooh poor Kayneth, he lost it all! Never stop thinking, Sola never had anything in her life - until now. Sorry, but it had to be said. Quote:
Lancer should have been thankful too! He could have ended up with a worse Master than Sola, who didn't care about his well-being at all. And treat him like a tool, like oh, Kayneth, but it's his choice too. Speaking of that, how couldn't Kayneth be thankful about his loyal servant! He could have ended up who actually badmouths him and smacks him silly! But no, he had one with unquestionable loyalty. Does this matter? No, because it's not about to be happy with what they had in the worst circumstances, but what they want to be happy. Quote:
And man, that Diarmuid, why is he forcing his feelings of fealty to Kayneth when they are completely unwanted. Yeah, no. Re-read the novels if you believe her actions alone are going to unleash a happy outcome. This is what annoys me for the bashers, they're unable to realize the combined effort of Kayneth's blind jealousy/sense of loss, Sola's blind love/sense of want (and their combined disgusting magi upbring) PLUS Lancer's blind loyalty/fear of repeating the past against common sense is what together weaved into bad news. The men are entirely blameless. I wonder why. [/sarcasm] I only like Lancer of the trio and I think his actions to handle this are beyond idiotic. Quote:
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Last edited by Thess; 2011-11-30 at 19:11. |
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2011-11-30, 20:01 | Link #250 | |
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2011-11-30, 21:11 | Link #251 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Why do I get the feeling that similar themed debates were present when Madoka aired? Perhaps it's really Gen's signature.
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2011-11-30, 22:21 | Link #252 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 33
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2011-12-01, 03:02 | Link #254 |
Your wife is hot...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: At your house fixing A/C
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In Lancer POV, your boss' wife falls in love for you the first time, you accept it -> tragic death for you.
Now you second boss' wife falls in love for you, what do you do? Tries to stay the hell out of the way this time... |
2011-12-01, 05:34 | Link #255 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Love triangle
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So this Lancer/Sola/Kayneth is getting dragged on, so I think this will the last time I address it. What I can see mainly is about emotional vs logical. Emotional represents the human view and the logical represents the magi view. About the arranged marriage between Kayneth and Sola, I view them both as being forced into the marriage, not only Sola. It just happens that Kayneth did fall in love with Sola, so he didn't feel forced so much. I will argue that Sola also didn't feel forced into the marriage, because she is raised for that purpose and she doesn't love anyone anyway. So before the Holy Grail War, the arranged marriage is actually mutually pleasant for both sides even if there is only one-sided love. In both human view and magi view, the marriage is actually pretty much okay. In the human view it will be equal to getting your son and daughter together because they have no significant other only that Sola's past is tragic. But in the magi view, Sola's past is normal and considered very logical. So why we don't sympathize with Sola's past as in the human view? Because she herself doesn't feel that hers upbringing is tragic. In the novel too she doesn't express hatred of her past, only the acknowledgement of how she feel cold and then feels alive when she fell in love with Lancer. This means she is still using the magi view for her upbringing so she was okay with it. For me, this makes me feel less sympathetic to her past because if she felt alright with it then there's no problem. Of course for Sola defenders, they sympathize more with Sola's past. Next, why we sympathize with Kayneth on this episode even if considered by the magi view he is being illogical by with holding the command seals? Because we judge him by human view. I will argue this also shows changes of Kayneth the magi to Kayneth the human. Losing his magi circuit has humanize his arrogant noble nature to as in the magi view, 'a whimpering broken child'. But in our human view we see him as 'the man that lost everything and is about to be cuckolded by his wife'. So yeah, we sympathize more with him because in the human analogy it will be like you were in an accident, wake up with a paralyzed body and your wife besides you and said, "Honey, you will never walk for the rest for your life, so will you sign this divorce papers?" So in our view he is justified acting like that, but if Sola waits a day or two Kayneth might come to his senses and give her the seals. It was her impatience that most of us view her as a bitch. Lancer cannot be judged with the magi view because he is a human in the past with literally all his bones and muscles sung with 'HONOR AND LOYALTY!'. Like he said, he is a knight before he is a servant. True, it will be more tactically advantages if he agreed, but Saber says hello . I will say this is also a case study of master and servant (hence the title) which explored thoroughly by Gen in Fate/Zero. If one has both the command seals and provided the mana, is that person considered their master in the truest sense of the word? Both Saber and Lancer said no. I actually has a lot more to say but I will stop at here for the moment. Feel free to argue with me . |
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2011-12-01, 13:59 | Link #260 |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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ugh... fanservice of the plot kind... I just hope they don't screw it up just for the sake of pandering to the Rin fans, Fate/Zero has had an excellent run so far. A weak episode wouldn't do it justice.
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