Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That’s the point. The show is changing its protagonist in a craptastic way. The last third of Destiny was supposed to make Kira the protagonist. It’s just Sunrise didn’t do a great job at it while at the same time also half-assedly brushing off Shinn as the protagonist. The focus on the real protagonist is really messed-up I tell you.

Regardless of the way you feel about the way this was handled, it still doesn't make Kira the protagonist/main character. That position defaults to Shinn.

Unless, of course, you think that the protagonist has to be on the "good/winning" side.

Yes, Shinn’s lost was necessary so that the story can keep going with confronting Durandal. Just like how James Bond need to defeat the boss-villain’s henchman first before reaching the said final boss, which is the climax of the story. Don’t you know that many Bond's climactic fight with the boss happens when the boss already lost almost everything and about to flee the scene or waiting there to kill Bond just to get even?

That they had to go through Shinn before Durandal is not the issue here. Yes, in that regard it is like a James Bond or any other story where the "good guys" has to battle a group of villains or whatever.

The difference is that, in this case, the story has been focusing on the so-called henchman's character/motivation from the beginning to the last episode, even to the additional ending.

So, if there's a "James Bond" story where the "evil henchman" is the protagonist, it would be like what's happened in Destiny.

[Aquaman OS]

The problem is Shinn is still not the focus. The story frequently forgets all about him and there are several episodes when he only makes a minor token appearance while AA crew gets the focus.

I mean look at the first stretch of 1-13. Who's getting the focus when there isn't combat involved. It's not Shinn (who gets one or two scenes) It's Athrun and Cagalli. Shinn's scenes of focus are few and far between and this continues for the entire show.

The only point that Shinn could be called the protagonist is the small stretch of episodes after Kira and co leave Orb and before they reappear to start interfering with Zaft. And even then Athrun gets the most screentime there.

This isn't the case in Seed, where Kira is almost always the focus of the show from start to finish minus a handful of eps where its either on Athrun or Kira is incapacitated.

Cutting back to Shinn for a minute or two once it a while to say "Oh hey this guy is important too" does not a protagonist make. In fact I'd say Destiny is truely an ensemble show and has no protagonist, since the perspective is constantly jumping around.

[monster]

Oh, I agree that Shinn did not get as much focus as Kira did in SEED, but Shinn still got more focus character-wise than anybody else (with Athrun and Cagalli being close behind).

[Washu-Chan]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

For all the talk about who was the "lead" character of Destiny, Athrun had the most screentime out of the three lead characters, even if he was in a supporting role.

The TV Movies recapped the show from Athrun's perspective, though with a sympathetic view towards the TSA.

There's also GSD: The Edge, an alternate retelling of GSD, also told from Athrun's POV.

Why not have Bandai/Sunrise/Fukuda/Morosawa admit that GSD was, by de facto, Athrun's show?

[Destined_Fate]

I was actually hoping when I was first watching SEED that Athrun would actually have killed Kira for real and that Athrun was the real main character all a long.

[Destined_Fate]

Still rude of you to say that, the troublesome ones have been omitted through forum features for a reason.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Still rude of you to say that, the troublesome ones have been omitted through forum features for a reason.

My apologies.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Like I said, you can try to count the time when the series spent time exploring Shinn’s character than busy with all the fighting and conflict involving other characters if you don’t believe me.

It can do both.

Let us look at the last two episodes. Episode 15 is a big battle, but it IS exploring Shinn's character isn't it? Him being goaded by Neo, him ignoring Athrun's orders, him rushing to save the slave labor, him ignoring all the death and suffering he is causing while trying to prevent more death and suffering.

Yeah, the whole episode was nothing but a big fight, but we ARE exploring Shinn's character, and his morality. And when Athrun calls him on some of it this episode, it DOES sink in. Those nice little flashbacks to him slaughtering people prove that point nicely.

A LOT of the nature of Shinn's personality and how he compares and contrasts to Athrun and Kira comes out of his battles. As does his moral fiber.

Just because there's shooting and pretty lights doesn't mean there is no subtext.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It all wraps out so quickly because the animator team was running out of time

In all five thousand iterations of that ending... Okay, I'll bite. Prove that this is what and where they cut.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They get their second chance with Final Plus, and look which scene got expanded: Kira vs Durandal's scene which more involving Athrun as well as some epilogue. That was the highlight of Final Plus.

You mean the big scene at the end that shows everyone in big neon letters that Shinn is a good guy now?

Also, how was the chat with Durandal expanded? I am genuinely asking because I don't remember it.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Oh yeah, absolutely. The climax of the series is when Shinn was about to attack his eye-rollingly-underdeveloped girlfriend. Wow, I’m suddenly enlightened .

It's when he is willing to kill an INNOCENT.

Everyone else he's killed before that moment "deserved" it in one way or another. He thought Kira had killed Stella and he thought Athrun and Meyrin were traitors, and everyone else was a fair enemy. But Luna? Totally innocent.

This is a major line he crossed.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Because it helps making people (who don’t understand my post the first time around) understand it? Also, it’s not a revision. That was the point all along. I knew you were just comparing Hamlet and Shinn, not the quality of whole thing. Like I said, it was just a side-note expressing my feelings comparing Hamlet and Destiny as a whole. And those that I bolded from your comment already made your intention glaringly obvious that you just want to complain at me.

I thought I was laying it on pretty thick, but I guess I should explain.

You and someone else have both made mention that Final Plus kind of negate your entire "Shinn wasn't part of the last scene" argument you seem to be using, but Final Plus shouldn't be used because it wasn't the original.

But here you have an original sentence that can be EASILY used against you, so you expand upon it and explain it better and expect us to use the revised, expanded version as gospel and ignore the original. Meanwhile taking the original ending as the one true ending and ignoring the newer, revised, expanded version of it.

Surely you see why I find this strange, no?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yes, Shinn’s lost was necessary so that the story can keep going with confronting Durandal.

Not REALLY. Kira went to meet Durandal on his own, Athrun never needed to be there. The fight between Athrun and Shinn could have ended in stalemate and with Genesis lost and Durandal dead, the battle would be over. Shinn's loss wasn't needed for the war story at all.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I was actually hoping when I was first watching SEED that Athrun would actually have killed Kira for real and that Athrun was the real main character all a long.

I actually thought that would have been a need bait and switch.

Then again, considering how well fans reacted to the bait and switch HERE, what makes you think people would like it THERE?

[Destined_Fate]

Well, Kira was still young than and SEED was far from over when that event happened. Athrun had many times to develop after that and he was extremely popular by than anyway even if Kira was more popular.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Well, the show doesn't spend ALL of its time with Shinn going "Should I or shouldn't I?" but it does spend a lot of time on the "will he or won't he?"

Fair enough, There were some instances in the first act of the story (when the character was still being set up) where Shinn had this very rare moment of self reflection. Or at least something similar where Shinn stopped moving for a moment and questioned the road he was on.. But here is the thing, he always came to the same conclusion: What I did / am doing / will do is the right thing.. There was not a single moment (after the 1st arc) where I had the feeling that Shinn was ever going to move from the track he was on.

While he may have had the most focus, his character was moving in a obvious stale line. They did spend time on "will he or won't he", but it is pointless when we already know which path he is going to choose.

Think of how many scenes exist almost entirely to show Shinn as heroic and well meaning, or show him as impulsive and careless. Saving Athrun, saving slaves, saving Stella, slaughtering EA forces, killing Todoka, killing Kira...

Those are just things that happened where Shinn was involved. None of those events made him grow as a character.. He did everything you mentioned here because he wanted to. That's it. None of those events knocked him off the track he was on from start to finish.

For example, finding out about Stella's sad fate as an extend and as an enemy didn't make him really question or even think about the next pilot who was labeled as enemy on his monitor. He just continued to do what he was doing before he met Stella.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

The corruption of the innocent IS the main theme of the show, and Shinn is the central story in that theme. He's your protagonist, beginning to end.

He lost his innocence when his lost his family.
He was damaged from the very start and his story was about how far he'll go on the same path before he self destruct.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Well, Kira was still young than and SEED was far from over when that event happened. Athrun had many times to develop after that and he was extremely popular by than anyway even if Kira was more popular.

But Shinn was never more popular than Kira.

If this theoretical protagonist switch in Destiny is the primary reason so many people seem to HATE Destiny, what makes you think the switch would have been taken in stride in Seed?

Remember, even the most avid Destiny Kira haters tend to say they liked him fine in Seed. I personally think it would have been awesome, but the average fan would have raged even harder than they did in Destiny.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

But here is the thing, he always came to the same conclusion: What I did / am doing / will do is the right thing..

Until he kills Athrun. Then things change. He struggles with that decision more than any, and proceeds to suffer because of it for the rest of the show.

But Shinn's unwillingness to change IS the point.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

There was not a single moment (after the 1st arc) where I had the feeling that Shinn was ever going to move from the track he was on.

I know, I didn't either, and I feel it is one of the weakest parts of the show. But I do know people who DID think he was going to defect when Athrun did.

Also, the show doing a poor job isn't the same as HIM NOT BEING A PROTAGONIST.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

While he may have had the most focus, his character was moving in a obvious stale line.

Which may make you think he is a bad character, but doesn't prevent him from being a protagonist.

Although, keep in mind, just because he didn't change how he acted doesn't mean he himself did not change.

Shinn's growing awareness of what he's doing and refusal to change is kind of the plot. It is HARD to accept you're wrong. It is hard to the cold, hard truths Athrun is offering over the pretty lies Rey whispers in your ear.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

He lost his innocence when his lost his family.
He was damaged from the very start and his story was about how far he'll go on the same path before he self destruct.

Athrun lost his mother to the war as well, and HE gave it up to do the right thing.

Shinn is a dramatic foil to Kira and Athrun. There but for the grace of God goes I type thing.

If instead of Athrun, it had been some random ZAFT soldier who killed Tolle? If Kira had never jumped into the Strike?

The line that separates good and evil is THAT thin. That's what Destiny shows. That's what Shinn's character shows us.

[Destined_Fate]

What does Shinn have anything to do what I said about SEED? I said Athrun replacing Kira at that point when he self destructed the Aegis in his face.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

What does Shinn have anything to do what I said about SEED? I said Athrun replacing Kira at that point when he self destructed the Aegis in his face.

I am comparing the theoretical protagonist/antagonist switch in Seed (from Kira to Athrun) witht he supposed protagonist/antagonist switch in Destiny (from Shinn to Kira).

Considering how much seething hatred the American fanbase seems to have for the latter I am presuming the former would not have gone down very well with the crowd EITHER...

[Destined_Fate]

Doubtful, Athrun was well liked in the East at that point and that's all that really matters. Besides, had Kira not been alive in Destiny and Athrun was the returning main character that mentors Shinn than many would have warmed to Shinn much more easily because Athrun was there and they don't have Kira to cry about.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Doubtful, Athrun was well liked in the East at that point and that's all that really matters. Besides, had Kira not been alive in Destiny and Athrun was the returning main character that mentors Shinn than many would have warmed to Shinn much more easily because Athrun was there and they don't have Kira to cry about.

Popularity wise it goes Kira > Athrun > Shinn.

If the switch from Shinn (least popular) to Kira (most popular), however theoretical, pissed people off, why wouldn't he swtich fro Kira (most popular) to Athrun (a bit less popular) NOT piss people off?

Follow? If going from 1 to 3 pissed people off, why would goes from 3 to 2 have a similar reaction?

[Mad Pierrot]

When did Kira become Destiny's protagonist? I never saw the series focusing on his background (maybe that flashback episode). He was just an active fighter similar to Mu in SEED who did a lot when he got new mobile suit but got less screentime.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

When did Kira become Destiny's protagonist? I never saw the series focusing on his background (maybe that flashback episode). He was just an active fighter similar to Mu in SEED who did a lot when he got new mobile suit but got less screentime.

When Strike Freedom replace Impulse at the beginning of anime op?
( third op+ )

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Popularity wise it goes Kira > Athrun > Shinn.

If the switch from Shinn (least popular) to Kira (most popular), however theoretical, pissed people off, why wouldn't he swtich fro Kira (most popular) to Athrun (a bit less popular) NOT piss people off?

Follow? If going from 1 to 3 pissed people off, why would goes from 3 to 2 have a similar reaction?

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. Kira dying as early as when the Aegis blew up on his face and Athrun taking over the lead of SEED than mentoring Shinn in Destiny. This would have helped Shinn's character far more than the random jumps to Kira since he wouldn't even be alive.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. Kira dying as early as when the Aegis blew up on his face and Athrun taking over the lead of SEED than mentoring Shinn in Destiny. This would have helped Shinn's character far more than the random jumps to Kira since he wouldn't even be alive.

I understand what you're saying. The problem is that what you are saying has NOTHING to do with what I'M saying.

Fans. Would. Have. HATED IT.

Fans hate Destiny for a protagonist switch that went for a less popular to a more popular character that didn't actually happen. An ACTUAL protagonist dying and being replaced by his less popular antagonist would have pissed even more people off.

Fans. Would. Have. HATED IT. Because fans ALREADY hated it. And it didn't even actually happen.

[Aquaman OS]

If Athrun had actually killed Kira, then regardless of whatever he did afterwords fans would hate him and only remember him as the bastard that killed Kira.

Nevermind the fact that the plot couldn't have worked that way.