Code Geass R2 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Becuase this will: Not give him what he wants, not serve any greater good than making him feel better, has no justification, and is based on his own hatred for Lelouch.

And how is this any different from any other character in the series?

When? I also did not mean that Nunally's offer, I was speaking that Nunally's methods do not work for what Suzaku wants.

No. I think working with Zero doesn't work with what Suzaku wants. That is something totally different.

Cornelia gave Euphemia the title when she told her that she needed a knight, or was about to give her the title.

Um... No. Cornelia wanter her to have a knight so she can be protected better. Remember, she gave that idea to her right after she was in that hostage situation. The title Euphie had was Deputy Vicerine or something like that. She had ZERO power to do anything by herself.

She told Euphemia that the only way her idea would work is if she challenged the Emperor herself. Nunally opened the SAZ because it was an already established idea, one that failed utterly, and failed again when Nunally opened it. What chance does Suzaku have when the people he's trying to protect hate him to the core?

We don't know if they still hate him though. Since he let Zero and the million Japanese go like that actually increases PR quite a bit.

Also, KoO only has to answer to the Emperor, and we still don't really know if Suzaku is fully with him or not or if the Emperor will even CARE if he does anything he wants. As long as they don't break away and still pay loyalties to Britannia, I don't think he will care that much.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

And how is this any different from any other character in the series?

Same episode: Lelouch gets: What he wants, can be argued for the greater good, has no justification, and is based on his own hatred of Geass. Seems different to me.

Originally Posted by Orga777

No. I think working with Zero doesn't work with what Suzaku wants. That is something totally different.

Which is what I said... O-o

Originally Posted by Orga777

Um... No. Cornelia wanter her to have a knight so she can be protected better. Remember, she gave that idea to her right after she was in that hostage situation. The title Euphie had was Deputy Vicerine or something like that. She had ZERO power to do anything by herself.

Cornelia told her that she was cleaning up the area for Euphemia for when she gives her the area to control. Cornelia's entire intention was to prepare Area 11 for her sister to take over. That was stated when she first came to Japan.

Originally Posted by Orga777

We don't know if they still hate him though. Since he let Zero and the million Japanese go like that actually increases PR quite a bit.

Also, KoO only has to answer to the Emperor, and we still don't really know if Suzaku is fully with him or not or if the Emperor will even CARE if he does anything he wants. As long as they don't break away and still pay loyalties to Britannia, I don't think he will care that much.

Doesn't matter how many people he let go when he's blamed for the deaths of thousands. One good act does not redeem someone who is seen as a devil for selling out the Japanese only hope, his people, and being involved with the Massacre Princess.

The Britannian government and nobility will not allow it. It does not matter how much power one person has if the entire nation is against him. The entire idea that Suzaku is vieing for even goes against Charles' Darwinistic views.

This is completely ignoring that fact that Suzaku will never attain that title as long as Bismark and Charles, and the armies that are deathly loyal to them, are alive. Even if they were both to die, an Eleven would have less chance than a snowball in hell to take that position.

[geewhiz]

Originally Posted by Var

Doesn't matter how many people he let go when he's blamed for the deaths of thousands. One good act does not redeem someone who is seen as a devil for selling out the Japanese only hope, his people, and being involved with the Massacre Princess.

The Britannian government and nobility will not allow it. It does not matter how much power one person has if the entire nation is against him. The entire idea that Suzaku is vieing for even goes against Charles' Darwinistic views.

This is completely ignoring that fact that Suzaku will never attain that title as long as Bismark and Charles, and the armies that are deathly loyal to them, are alive. Even if they were both to die, an Eleven would have less chance than a snowball in hell to take that position.

This episode actually only goes to show that a good ending for Suzaku in CG would be nothing short of a miracle...

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Same episode: Lelouch gets: What he wants, can be argued for the greater good, has no justification, and is based on his own hatred of Geass. Seems different to me.

Not really.

Which is what I said... O-o

Well, you seemed to say overall in your last post. Misunderstanding on my part.

Cornelia told her that she was cleaning up the area for Euphemia for when she gives her the area to control. Cornelia's entire intention was to prepare Area 11 for her sister to take over. That was stated when she first came to Japan.

That is nice and all, but she didn't HAVE that power yet.

Doesn't matter how many people he let go when he's blamed for the deaths of thousands. One good act does not redeem someone who is seen as a devil for selling out the Japanese only hope, his people, and being involved with the Massacre Princess.

What? Before the massacre he was seen as hope by the Japanese people. As for afterwards, we don;t know if that changed or not since he was the one that let them go. Heck, they could now see that Suzaku was just being used by Euphie in that incident... God that doesn't feel right to type...

The Britannian government and nobility will not allow it. It does not matter how much power one person has if the entire nation is against him. The entire idea that Suzaku is vieing for even goes against Charles' Darwinistic views.

Actually, I can argue that point. If Suzaku becomes Knight of One, he fought through every single barrier imaginable and, in the Darwinist System Charles follows, only the strong prosper. That means Suzaku would have done enough to earn that title and more so than any other KoO before him. The Emperor can easily see it as someone that earned the right to do what he wants as long as he stays loyal to the Empire.

This is completely ignoring that fact that Suzaku will never attain that title as long as Bismark and Charles, and the armies that are deathly loyal to them, are alive. Even if they were both to die, an Eleven would have less chance than a snowball in hell to take that position.

That all depends how the title is gained.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Not really.

Then you clearly don't see the difference between unjustified evil that is planned well and can be argued for the greater good -and- unjustified evil that isn't well thought and has absolutely no potential to do anything useful for one's agenda.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

That is nice and all, but she didn't HAVE that power yet.

If that power had been enough then she wouldn't have had gone to Cornelia then Schneizel. My point is that as a governor Suzaku will not be able to make the reforms he wants, he will at best be able to do as Nunally and reform the SAZ, that is all. And that is not even a solution, just a band-aid that will last only as long as he commands.

Originally Posted by Orga777

What? Before the massacre he was seen as hope by the Japanese people. As for afterwards, we don;t know if that changed or not since he was the one that let them go. Heck, they could now see that Suzaku was just being used by Euphie in that incident... God that doesn't feel right to type...

It's been noted that, for his part in selling out Zero to the Emperor, taking the KoR rank, and being a part of the massacre have turned him into the devil incarnate in the eyes of the Japanese.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Actually, I can argue that point. If Suzaku becomes Knight of One, he fought through every single barrier imaginable and, in the Darwinist System Charles follows, only the strong prosper. That means Suzaku would have done enough to earn that title and more so than any other KoO before him. The Emperor can easily see it as someone that earned the right to do what he wants as long as he stays loyal to the Empire.

That holds only if the system were not corrupt, which it is. The KoO is not a title for the most powerful soldier, it is the ideal soldier. One who is capable in both the battlefield and as a commander. Suzaku has demontrated that he is a poor military leader. Once we also take into account corruption and that the only fates we've seen to people trying to do good have resulted in Rolo-ing or Euphie, you have a hard case to argue.

Originally Posted by Orga777

That all depends how the title is gained.

The Emperor names it to his most powerful knight. I'm sure this was posted somewhere at some point in time.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Then you clearly don't see the difference between unjustified evil that is planned well and can be argued for the greater good -and- unjustified evil that isn't well thought and has absolutely no potential to do anything useful for one's agenda.

Last time I checked acting like Britannia was not the way to go. You can argue Clovis wiping out Shinjuku can be argued for the greater good too. It would have prevented Geass from getting out after all. Doesn't mean it SHOULD be. There is NO greater good in slaughtering a bunch of people.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Last time I checked acting like Britannia was not the way to go. You can argue Clovis wiping out Shinjuku can be argued for the greater good too. It would have prevented Geass from getting out after all. Doesn't mean it SHOULD be. There is NO greater good in slaughtering a bunch of people.

If those people were all implanted with bombs, wiping them out seems like greater good.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Last time I checked acting like Britannia was not the way to go. You can argue Clovis wiping out Shinjuku can be argued for the greater good too. It would have prevented Geass from getting out after all. Doesn't mean it SHOULD be. There is NO greater good in slaughtering a bunch of people.

That is basically how the United States justified using Atomic bombs on Japan.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Last time I checked acting like Britannia was not the way to go. You can argue Clovis wiping out Shinjuku can be argued for the greater good too. It would have prevented Geass from getting out after all. Doesn't mean it SHOULD be. There is NO greater good in slaughtering a bunch of people.

Exactly, people need to stop acting like Lelouch actions are justifiable because he's the damn main character, murder is murder regardless of any situation he killed his brother out of cold blood and killed Euphie out of mercy and the Geass Cult for revenge you can't excuse any of those actions

[Var]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

Exactly, people need to stop acting like Lelouch actions are justifiable because he's the damn main character, murder is murder regardless of any situation he killed his brother out of cold blood and killed Euphie out of mercy and the Geass Cult for revenge you can't excuse any of those actions

You fail. No one said justified.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

If that power had been enough then she wouldn't have had gone to Cornelia then Schneizel. My point is that as a governor Suzaku will not be able to make the reforms he wants, he will at best be able to do as Nunally and reform the SAZ, that is all. And that is not even a solution, just a band-aid that will last only as long as he commands.

What are you talking about? Euphie's power had huge limitations. All the real power was Cornelia's and Schneizel's. She couldn't do ANYTHING AT ALL. Nothing. Zilch. Nadda. No possible anything could have been made by Euphie without Cornelia the GOVERNOR'S or Schneizel, the second Prince's permission. How can you even compare Suzaku having actual control over a nation compared to Euphemia who had NO control at all?

It's been noted that, for his part in selling out Zero to the Emperor, taking the KoR rank, and being a part of the massacre have turned him into the devil incarnate in the eyes of the Japanese.

Not true. Just the massacre mostly. Hell, there were some that still seemed to look up to Suzaku. Go back and watch the episode when the SAZ was first announced by Nunnally.

That holds only if the system were not corrupt, which it is. The KoO is not a title for the most powerful soldier, it is the ideal soldier. One who is capable in both the battlefield and as a commander. Suzaku has demontrated that he is a poor military leader. Once we also take into account corruption and that the only fates we've seen to people trying to do good have resulted in Rolo-ing or Euphie, you have a hard case to argue.

You know, people throw this corruption card into play, but really, there is a lack of evidence to support it. The 'corruption' part is mostly people involved in Code R, and they have a reason to be secretive. Also, Suzaku is only a poor military leader when matching wits with Lelouch. That should NOT be held against him at all. Lelouch is on a whole other level along with the Emperor and Schneizel.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

That is basically how the United States justified using Atomic bombs on Japan.

Yes. You are right that it was. Does it make it right though? Not really. That was also a last resort as well. Japan had no intention of surrendering and still almost didn't even after the second bomb was dropped. I don't think pre-empted slaughter as a first resort is a good choice. Especially since it happened only because Lelouch was mad that a friend of his was killed.

[Tolle Erik Koenig]

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

I haven't played the video game but come on. A person intentionally making his people fight to the death is far more cooler than a person simply raising his troops morale. You're making this Rai fellow sound like a wuss and not worthy of being a Code Geass protagonist.

Oops, seems you're not even aware of the topic. It was about ALL Geass users being EVIL. I'm just trying to show that at least one of 'em isn't.

Not strength/wuss. (Although Rai could jolly well have gone ahead and do that on purpose)

Originally Posted by demon_god04

That is basically how the United States justified using Atomic bombs on Japan.

Yep.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

What are you talking about? Euphie's power had huge limitations. All the real power was Cornelia's and Schneizel's. She couldn't do ANYTHING AT ALL. Nothing. Zilch. Nadda. No possible anything could have been made by Euphie without Cornelia the GOVERNOR'S or Schneizel, the second Prince's permission. How can you even compare Suzaku having actual control over a nation compared to Euphemia who had NO control at all?

Euphie was basically in the same position as Suzaku is in right now, the assistant to the Governor. She had power as royalty which she had to give up to form the SAZ. Cornelia and Schneizel's power alone was not able to do so either.

Not true. Just the massacre mostly. Hell, there were some that still seemed to look up to Suzaku. Go back and watch the episode when the SAZ was first announced by Nunnally.

And there are people who said that he was the traitor the sold out Zero.

You know, people throw this corruption card into play, but really, there is a lack of evidence to support it. The 'corruption' part is mostly people involved in Code R, and they have a reason to be secretive. Also, Suzaku is only a poor military leader when matching wits with Lelouch. That should NOT be held against him at all. Lelouch is on a whole other level along with the Emperor and Schneizel.

And the people who sent Rolo out to assassinate senators with differing stances.

Suzaku is a poor leader because he does not lead his soldiers and inspire them to fight for him so much as fight along side them. He is okay commanding a small number of soldiers but he is far from being competent enough to lead a nation.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

What are you talking about? Euphie's power had huge limitations. All the real power was Cornelia's and Schneizel's. She couldn't do ANYTHING AT ALL. Nothing. Zilch. Nadda. No possible anything could have been made by Euphie without Cornelia the GOVERNOR'S or Schneizel, the second Prince's permission. How can you even compare Suzaku having actual control over a nation compared to Euphemia who had NO control at all?

Let me phrase this in an easier to chew manner:
- Cornelia comes to Area 11 to clean up the area.
- Her intention is to hand it over to Euphemia.
- Euphemia slowly gains a backbone and even goes against her sister to apoint Suzaku as her knight.
- Euphemia begins to take an active role in the government as the time for Cornelia to pass her the power of Vicereign approaches.
- Once Euphemia proposes the idea for the SAZ to her sister, Cornelia notes that the only way it would be possible would be if she intended to challenge the Emperor himself.
- Cornelia could not do anything, even with her power over the Area, to establish the area without severe political backlash.
- Euphemia goes to Schneizel who has even more power. He manages to help her form the zone, which is still not well received by the Britannians and by many Japanese.

If the power of governorship was enough, then Cornelia would have been able to do what Euphie had wanted. Cornelia is not one to say no to Euphemia, this is a known fact. She simply did not have the power to do what was needed to allow such an idea to take foot in an Area. Schneizel managed to do it by having all the other royals also agree to it, which is why Euphemia had to lose her title, as the price.

Nunally reformed the area both unexpectedly, and on the grounds of what was already built by Euphie. The idea failed again, however.

Suzaku becoming the KoO would face the same problems, as well as a political backlash like none other considering his title to be. He does not have the power, as neither Cornelia nor Schneizel alone, had the power to change the very basis of the Britannian system. The SAZ was only formed by the joint approval of many, many royals. How is Suzaku going to achieve this? How is going to even manage to get the entire Japan into such a deal?

Originally Posted by Orga777

Not true. Just the massacre mostly. Hell, there were some that still seemed to look up to Suzaku. Go back and watch the episode when the SAZ was first announced by Nunnally.

That is what I am refering too, I remember no one denoting him at all as a hero. Only cursing him for the massacre and selling out Zero. I only do raws though, might be the sub?

Originally Posted by Orga777

You know, people throw this corruption card into play, but really, there is a lack of evidence to support it. Also, Suzaku is only a poor military leader when matching wits with Lelouch. That should NOT be held against him at all. Lelouch is on a whole other level along with the Emperor and Schneizel.

Senator was assassinated by Rolo for attempting to stop the correctional status on an Area. How many military leaders have you seen not on Lelouch's level? Schneizel? No. Xing-ke? No. Charles? No. Lelouch? No.

Suzaku is a piece on the board, he is no king.

[Diedrupo]

Originally Posted by Tolle Erik Koenig

Oops, seems you're not even aware of the topic. It was about ALL Geass users being EVIL. I'm just trying to show that at least one of 'em isn't.

I wasn't aware of the topic? Then what was all my arguing with ZeroSama about??

Obviously I decided to mention that since you seemed hell bent on morally justifying something that another person gave a not so morally justified reason for.

She told Euphemia that the only way her idea would work is if she challenged the Emperor herself. Nunally opened the SAZ because it was an already established idea, one that failed utterly, and failed again when Nunally opened it. What chance does Suzaku have when the people he's trying to protect hate him to the core?

Don't you think that's too open ended to come to a concise conclusion? What evidence do you have that the Japanese and Britannians won't decide to reconcile? Are you trying to use real world examples to back that up? We don't know what direction the story could go, anything can happen at this point. This is not really something you can hold against Suzaku or any other idealistic character on the Britannian side.

Regions like the SAZ *could* have worked if the story writers wanted it to. They obviously didn't for the sole purpose of prolonguing the story or perhaps giving more time to reveal the true machinations behind everything (and I guarentee you that all of this political bickering/war is just a front for the real purpose of Code Geass's story).

You're implicitly implying that the good ending would result in the elevens retaking all of Japan and kicking the Britannians out, and while that might appeal to some nationalist japanese viewers, I don't think that sits well with anyone else.

If that power had been enough then she wouldn't have had gone to Cornelia then Schneizel. My point is that as a governor Suzaku will not be able to make the reforms he wants, he will at best be able to do as Nunally and reform the SAZ, that is all. And that is not even a solution, just a band-aid that will last only as long as he commands.

And Lelouch's solution of eradicating Britannia won't work either. In the end, no one wins, but that's okay, because the story isn't about solving this problem, at least that's how I viewed it. (After all, Lelouch doesn't really care about solving it, he just wants to avenge his mother and protect Nunally).

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Yes. You are right that it was. Does it make it right though? Not really. That was also a last resort as well. Japan had no intention of surrendering and still almost didn't even after the second bomb was dropped. I don't think pre-empted slaughter as a first resort is a good choice. Especially since it happened only because Lelouch was mad that a friend of his was killed.

Point is not that whether it it was right or not but that in the end the result was for the greater good as a whole. Without using atomic weapons the invasion of Japan would have been costly as the Japanese wanted to basically put up such a fierce resistance that they can force a more favourable surrender. The geass cult were a dangerous existence that could cause widespread panic should it be known to the world. They were also raising sociopaths assassins and who knows what else.

It was horrible that there were civilian casualties on both fronts and Lelouch may not have done it with the best of intentions, but you can see the results for yourself.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Actually, I can argue that point. If Suzaku becomes Knight of One, he fought through every single barrier imaginable and, in the Darwinist System Charles follows, only the strong prosper. That means Suzaku would have done enough to earn that title and more so than any other KoO before him. The Emperor can easily see it as someone that earned the right to do what he wants as long as he stays loyal to the Empire.

That's almost right.

If Suzaku earned the right to be the Knight of One, then the Emperor would not object. But that's just a title, it doesn't mean he would get respect. Suzaku can give out as many orders and pass as many laws as he like, but as long as his subordinates don't cooperate there is nothing he can do. It is like how Euphemia is a kind and loving person, but soldiers under her control are still bloodthirsty psychopaths.

[Tolle Erik Koenig]

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

I wasn't aware of the topic? Then what was all my arguing with ZeroSama about??

Obviously I decided to mention that since you seemed hell bent on morally justifying something that another person gave a not so morally justified reason for.

Well, I'm just trying to prove that in the sea of Geass users, not all of them are evil, though most are. But then again, Rai is a "manipulatable" character, so it begs the question if he does turn up in the anime, then how will he be like?

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Let me phrase this in an easier to chew manner:
- Cornelia comes to Area 11 to clean up the area.
- Her intention is to hand it over to Euphemia.
- Euphemia slowly gains a backbone and even goes against her sister to apoint Suzaku as her knight.
- Euphemia begins to take an active role in the government as the time for Cornelia to pass her the power of Vicereign approaches.
- Once Euphemia proposes the idea for the SAZ to her sister, Cornelia notes that the only way it would be possible would be if she intended to challenge the Emperor himself.
- Cornelia could not do anything, even with her power over the Area, to establish the area without severe political backlash.
- Euphemia goes to Schneizel who has even more power. He manages to help her form the zone, which is still not well received by the Britannians and by many Japanese.

If the power of governorship was enough, then Cornelia would have been able to do what Euphie had wanted. Cornelia is not one to say no to Euphemia, this is a known fact. She simply did not have the power to do what was needed to allow such an idea to take foot in an Area. Schneizel managed to do it by having all the other royals also agree to it, which is why Euphemia had to lose her title, as the price.

Nunally reformed the area both unexpectedly, and on the grounds of what was already built by Euphie. The idea failed again, however.

Suzaku becoming the KoO would face the same problems, as well as a political backlash like none other considering his title to be. He does not have the power, as neither Cornelia nor Schneizel alone, had the power to change the very basis of the Britannian system. The SAZ was only formed by the joint approval of many, many royals. How is Suzaku going to achieve this? How is going to even manage to get the entire Japan into such a deal?

Alright, now I get what you are saying. I can see your view point, but I don't think it is as you say. The SAZ was only a start and things change over time. No one said Suzaku would be able to initiate laws over night after becoming KoO, but the process can be done.

That is what I am refering too, I remember no one denoting him at all as a hero. Only cursing him for the massacre and selling out Zero. I only do raws though, might be the sub?

In the sub I saw. Not said to be a hero, but something along the lines of "Kururuugi is there, and he is an 11 like us." Of course the guy got berated by his wife for having no back bone or something along those lines... XD

Senator was assassinated by Rolo for attempting to stop the correctional status on an Area. How many military leaders have you seen not on Lelouch's level? Schneizel? No. Xing-ke? No. Charles? No. Lelouch? No.

Damn it... I keep forgetting that Rolo Governmental Assassinations...<.<
But again, how is Suzaku shown to be a terrible military commander? Comparing him to those you just named really isn't fair at all. Even Toudou is pathetic compared to Lelouch. We also haven't seen much of Suzaku in a commander role yet. Just once and he only lost because of a freak bubble attack.

Suzaku is a piece on the board, he is no king.

I understand that, but he doesn't have to be.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valient

If Suzaku earned the right to be the Knight of One, then the Emperor would not object. But that's just a title, it doesn't mean he would get respect. Suzaku can give out as many orders and pass as many laws as he like, but as long as his subordinates don't cooperate there is nothing he can do. It is like how Euphemia is a kind and loving person, but soldiers under her control are still bloodthirsty psychopaths.

That would be true, if Suzaku didn't have so much respect in the military as a whole. All through R2 he has shown to have a lot of it in the military and a very good amount in the government.