Metal Gear Solid 4

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by kujoe

And there's still the question is whether Eva really knew what has been going behind Ocelot and his Liquid personality.

I think Eva knew what was what, heck it was there (Ocelot's and Eva's) plan to begin with anyway.

[Kagedanji]

The Patriots and their AIs were the evil. Big Boss's disciples opposed it. Solid Snake and Raiden are the only anti heroes, even if they didn't know what was really going on.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

I think Eva knew what was what, heck it was there (Ocelot's and Eva's) plan to begin with anyway.

I've been lurking in Gamefaqs and that seems to be a common question that pops up. It's a point of contention among fans it seems, with others believing that she died thinking that Ocelot was Liquid at that time.

Spoiler:

I guess it's because of the way she refers to that apple... It's too dramatic to be fake. While she admits that she and Ocelot have been working for a common goal, she also mentions that Ocelot's idolization of Big Boss has strained their comradeship with each other. Moreover, Naomi herself doesn't fully trust Ocelot who wants everything in the system destroyed—everything, including the very components and collective data that touch upon their way of life. Thus, she seeks Otacon and Sunny's help via deception to create FOXALIVE.

Ocelot's goal is to end the reign of the Patriots. But with the way he's been dong things, the end result of this would be utter anarchy.

Originally Posted by Kagedanji

The Patriots and their AIs were the evil. Big Boss's disciples opposed it. Solid Snake and Raiden are the only anti heroes, even if they didn't know what was really going on.

Yes, but this is also why I said Snake arguably exemplifies the Boss' ideals the most. The Big Boss dreamed of a world where soldiers are free, a dream that the Boss didn't have. She believed in loyalty—to one's country, to oneself—above all else. Big Boss may have been the "perfect soldier", but the Boss was the ideal.

Of course, things have become different by the time the Patriots set up shop after the Philosophers, but I was really referring to aspect(s) of the characters which are shown and explored in this game in particular.

[Kagedanji]

But wait, who was it that they were both making a show for if both of them planned that act? (mainly referring to the Volta River scene)

Spoiler:

And did Ocelot still have his own subconscious after he tricked himself into being Liquid? I believe it was written that Liquid's subconscious really was controlling Ocelot (to some extent, because of nanomachines) IIRC. If Ocelot did lose his own mind, both of these facts could lead to the deduction that since it was Liquid, he really believed that corpse was Big Boss and EVA tried to trick him, since she knew Liquid had taken over, and that Liquid still had the need to surpass Big Boss.

Starting to confuse myself...

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I've been lurking in Gamefaqs and that seems to be a common question that pops up. It's a point of contention among fans it seems, with others believing that she died thinking that Ocelot was Liquid at that time.

Spoiler:

I guess it's because of the way she refers to that apple... It's too dramatic to be fake. While she admits that she and Ocelot have been working for a common goal, she also mentions that Ocelot's idolization of Big Boss has strained their comradeship with each other. Moreover, Naomi herself doesn't fully trust Ocelot who wants everything in the system destroyed—everything, including the very components and data that touches upon their way of life. Thus, she seeks Otacon and Sunny's help via deception to create FOXALIVE.

Spoiler:

Lol Yea that apple cut sense will get ya I guess. I don't think it was ever stated in the game that Ocelot's idolization of Big Boss is what strained their comradeship with each other, Eva loved Big Boss and Ocelot idolization of him is what lead to them wanting to Free Big Boss from Zero and the system. That meant to destroy the system. I do remember Eva saying Ocelot has lost his soul to Liquid and that he (Liquid) wanted Eva dead, which was a lie in my eyes, for the simple fact that at the end of the game it is reviled that it was all Ocelot's and Eva's plan to use Solid Snake The main Gun of the Patriots, to destroy the system. it was not Liquid ocelot who killed her but Fox die from Solid Snake.

Naomi herself doesn't fully trust Ocelot who wants everything in the system destroyed

Ocelot Only wanted the AI Patriots System's destroyed, So it would free Big Boss, and end the Patriots, if Liquid Ocelot really wanted everything blown up he could have easily stopped Solid Snake and the rest, but as Liquid Ocelot said "Why would I want to do that?"

[Kagedanji]

^ Err. Read my post.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Kagedanji

But wait, who was it that they were both making a show for if both of them planned that act? (mainly referring to the Volta River scene)

Spoiler:

Solid Snake the main Gun of the Patriots

Spoiler:

And did Ocelot still have his own subconscious after he tricked himself into being Liquid? I believe it was written that Liquid's subconscious really was controlling Ocelot (to some extent, because of nanomachines) IIRC. If Ocelot did lose his own mind, both of these facts could lead to the deduction that since it was Liquid, he really believed that corpse was Big Boss and EVA tried to trick him, since she knew Liquid had taken over, and that Liquid still had the need to surpass Big Boss.

Yes, it was stated that Ocelot used nano's and psychotherapy to transplanted Liquids personality onto his own, he used hypnotic suggestion to trun himself into Liquid's mental Doppelganger. Ocelot showed his own subconscious by using his taunt in the final fight and moves, and by telling Snake that he is Liquid's Doppelganger, not to meantion his name "Liquid Ocelot". If Liquid's persona did take control, and Ocelots was no where to be found then that rail guy would have been fired and Eva would have died by Liquid and not by Snake.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Spoiler:

I don't think it was ever stated in the game that Ocelot's idolization of Big Boss is what strained their comradeship with each other, Eva loved Big Boss and Ocelot idolization of him is what lead to them wanting to Free Big Boss from Zero and the system. That meant to destroy the system. I do remember Eva saying Ocelot has lost his soul to Liquid and that he (Liquid) wanted Eva dead, which was a lie in my eyes, for the simple fact that at the end of the game it is reviled that it was all Ocelot's and Eva's plan to use Solid Snake The main Gun of the Patriots, to destroy the system. it was not Liquid ocelot who killed her but Fox die from Solid Snake.

Actually, Eva does state that.

Spoiler:

Her words are, "I lost Ocelot." Thus, it seems that yes, she and Ocelot have been working for the same thing, but severed ties later on. The end goal is still the same, except things have just gotten messy along the way. Hence, the claim of her possibly not knowing the deal behind the Liquid personality. Someone even mentioned a Konami guide that says this, but I'm not sure about that.

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Spoiler:

Ocelot Only wanted the AI Patriots System's destroyed, So it would free Big Boss, and end the Patriots, if Liquid Ocelot really wanted everything blown up he could have easily stopped Solid Snake and the rest, but as Liquid Ocelot said "Why would I want to do that?"

Spoiler:

Oh, then why does Naomi does what she does? Is that part of the plan too? This (along with FOXALIVE) is actually emphasized in the latter portion of the game.

It becomes needlessly complicated if everything is all just one big act. Tell that to the soldiers that dies and gets wounded by the river in Act 3. The original plan was to trick the Patriots, but that doesn't work out as originally planned.

Come to think of it, things would have been a whole lot simpler if they (Snake, Otacon, Ocelot, etc.) all just worked together.

Originally Posted by Kagedanji

Spoiler:

And did Ocelot still have his own subconscious after he tricked himself into being Liquid? I believe it was written that Liquid's subconscious really was controlling Ocelot (to some extent, because of nanomachines) IIRC. If Ocelot did lose his own mind, both of these facts could lead to the deduction that since it was Liquid, he really believed that corpse was Big Boss and EVA tried to trick him, since she knew Liquid had taken over, and that Liquid still had the need to surpass Big Boss.

Spoiler:

The Liquid personality is due to self-hypnopsis and nanomachines. It's really just Ocelot deep down assimilating Liquid's persona.

[Avisch]

My feelings.

I'm a MGS veteran. Played MGS2: Substance then Twin Snakes and then MGS3. And I really like the lore of the games and such.

Since I will probably neve acquire a PS3 until 2020. I decided to spoil myself on everything related to MGS4.

Spoiler for Other feelings:

First off let me say what annoys me.

The following mysteries were core to Metal Gear Solid 2.
-how the Patriots are active
-Vamp's immortality
-Liquid's survival through the arm

And they are answered with incredible ease. Nanomachines.....

Call this complaining if you will. But just "Nanomachines" as a explanation seems really odd. I would have preffered that there was something other than nanomachines that affect these myseries (ie. made them more complicated).
Overall. Perhaps I feel think it's uncreative because the myseries related to Vamp and Liquid could have much more interesting. Maybe this is just my opinion though. I'm not calling it bad writing. I just feel let-down that the myseries were answered so simply.

Then there's the fact that the Patriots were just the supporting characters from MGS3. his kind of destroys the independence of MGS4 to the other games. But once again this is just my opinion.

Lastly I thought it a odd to bring back Big Boss for the end of the game. Because this throws out the ending of MG2 in which he was supposedly defeated for good. However I do find it very cool that
he is able to talk with Snake....thus sort of allowing Snake some peace with his heritage.

Despite these complaints. I do hope I get to play MGS4.

[Master Mold]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by kujoe

Actually, Eva does state that. Her words are, "I lost Ocelot." Thus, it seems that yes, she and Ocelot have been working for the same thing, but severed ties later on. The end goal is still the same, except things have just gotten messy along the way. Hence, the claim of her possibly not knowing the deal behind the Liquid personality. Someone even mentioned a Konami guide that says this, but I'm not sure about that.

I just checked your right she does say "I lost Ocelot" but she also goes on to explain what she means by that, she said, "when Ocelot grafted Liquid's right arm onto his own his body was taking over by Liquid's thoughts and spirit," which was all an act to keep Snake (The Gun of the Patriots) going along as they (Ocelot and Eva and Naomi) planed. it is even stated in the strategy guide, That Ocelots simple wishes for an end to the Patriots AI control system.

Spoiler:

Oh, then why does Naomi does what she does? Is that part of the plan too?

Yes, seeing how before the Shadow Moses event they Ocelot and Eva, recruited Noami, and not to mention her staged escape during Act 2, that was for the purpose so that Ocelot could get the virus, that Noami could not complete to Sunny. That is the reason why Sunny told Raiden to tell Noami "She cooked them right." meaning the Virus is done thus Noami's purpose done and she finds redemption in death.

This (along with FOXALIVE) is actually emphasized in the latter portion of the game. It becomes needlessly complicated if everything is all just one big act. Tell that to the soldiers that dies and gets wounded by the river in Act 3. Come to think of it, things would have been a whole lot simpler if they (Snake, Otacon, Ocelot, etc.) all just worked together.

Well Ocelot had to make it as real as possible, and if they chose to work together im sure the Patriots AI's would have found out and adjusted, Thats the reason why Ocelot went tho all that just to fool the system and what not.

Spoiler:

And they are answered with incredible ease. Nanomachines.....

Call this complaining if you will. But just "Nanomachines" as a explanation seems really odd. I would have preffered that there was something other than nanomachines that affect these myseries (ie. made them more complicated).
Overall. Perhaps I feel think it's uncreative because the myseries related to Vamp and Liquid could have much more interesting. Maybe this is just my opinion though. I'm not calling it bad writing. I just feel let-down that the myseries were answered so simply.

Spoiler:

I kinda agree, I felt like vamps having Nano's be the reason why he can't die was great, but I thought Ocelot having some type of power his father The Sorrow had to bring back the dead would have be better then Nano's and what not, Still it was a great Game tho.

[Kagedanji]

I read Wiki, and they suggest:

Spoiler:

Ocelot successfully tricked his mind into thinking it was Liquid, putting Ocelot's mind in a sort of coma. Liquid Ocelot, before the moment that Snake duels him with CQC, making Ocelot regain his full consciousness, is considered Liquid.

So EVA knew that it was Liquid.

Spoiler:

And Liquid believed the corpse was Big Boss. The rail gun was Liquid's plan to occupy the Patriots. He wanted to defeat the Patriots, surpassing Big Boss, even if he was carrying on BB's ideals at the same time, but this is why Ocelot went through the hypnosis. EVA's reactions to the corpse was an act for the Patriots, but the seemingly overdramatic scene with Liquid Ocelot was real since that was Liquid. The Patriots also believed that was Liquid, so no one could give a hint that that was a hypnotized Ocelot. Snake is more of the Patriots' tool. The entire saga is a war between The Patriots and Big Boss.

On Big Boss's side was EVA, Ocelot, Solidus, Naomi, and Liquid, even though he also wanted to surpass him, but he believed in the idea of Outer Heaven.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Spoiler:

I just checked your right she does say "I lost Ocelot" but she also goes on to explain what she means by that, she said, "when Ocelot grafted Liquid's right arm onto his own his body was taking over by Liquid's thoughts and spirit," which was all an act to keep Snake (The Gun of the Patriots) going along as they (Ocelot and Eva and Naomi) planed. it is even stated in the strategy guide, That Ocelots simple wishes for an end to the Patriots AI control system.

Spoiler:

Ocelot wishing to end the Patriots system is obvious in the end. However, what she says further only serves to make the apple scene fit. As in, she was trying to make Ocelot snap out of his Liquid phase.

Actually, Eva is a usually discussed topic it seems. Some are even speculating that she did have BB's body at one point and just didn't realize that it has been swapped with Solidus's later on... which I guess tries to make sense of the events by the river. But anyway...

Like I said before, it becomes needlessly complicated if Eva, Ocelot, and Naomi are in total agreement with each other. Still the same goal though. The fact they would go to such lengths needlessly (e.g., Eva jumping into the flames, Naomi causing all that drama, etc.) if all along they were working with each other perfectly just makes it all the more incredulous and convoluted.

Of course, maybe that's what Kojima views as a detailed plot in a clockwork fashion. But it's just too much really.

[kenjiharima]

Man...the plotlines and drama are very deep...I am just glad Snake is free now to do whatever he wants in life now.


Anyways Raiden is over powered. But I bet my ass Snake can PWN him! young or old.

Spoiler:

[randomuser83]

Yup im very much in agreement Kenjiharima. No one can beat snake.

[Dingo]

Originally Posted by randomuser83

Yup im very much in agreement Kenjiharima. No one can beat snake.

Good to hear that

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

Originally Posted by kenjiharima

Man...the plotlines and drama are very deep...I am just glad Snake is free now to do whatever he wants in life now.


Anyways Raiden is over powered. But I bet my ass Snake can PWN him! young or old.

Spoiler:

HAHAHAAHA that is one funny pic.

[Kagedanji]

Raiden will puncture his throat with his mighty high-heels.

[kenjiharima]

Old Snake beat Vamp and Raiden had a tough time beating him. Raiden defeated Vamp, but left bleeding and the 2nd fight Vamp is weakened with the syringe shot Snake gave him.

Also note Snake is resourceful and uses his wit, instincts and experience to win a fight. He takes every measure as seen in the game to win.

SOLID SNAKE FTW!!!

[Kagedanji]

Wit? That's all Otacon. He was the one that suggested the syringe. Old Snake didn't even beat Vamp, he merely stopped him from cheating again. Raiden has actually beaten him a total of three times. He had him fall into a watery half-death twice through a STINGER missile (when I played the game) and a PSG1. The third time, he cut Vamp until he spilled all of his blood, having him finally stare death in the face, because

Spoiler:

his nanomachines were disabled.

Vamp was toying with Snake anyway. He almost killed him at Big Shell, and would've, but couldn't, somewhat thanks to Raiden.

[kujoe]

Yeah, but don't underestimate the old man. Otcaon suggested the syringe, but it's still Snake who has to do the dirty job of using it.

Raiden is fortunate (or unfortunate) to be given a cybernetic body, whereas Solid Snake and Naked Snake before him have fought with opponents with superhuman advantages/abilities, artificial or otherwise. Psycho Mantis, Vamp, tanks, Metal Gear... And yet he prevails by using whatever is available to him.

The only things that Snake truly has over those guys? Stealth and CQC. There's a reason why Big Boss was cloned, and not some special or nanomachined soldier.