News Stories

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

I think the root of the problem isn't religion itself, but the general idealism that comes from said religion. Religious texts can be interpreted in a million ways, but the idialism remains the same. The problem between Israel and Palestine has its roots in religion, but by the end of the day, the problem comes down to land-ownership. The Jewish in Israel believe their country is the promised land. Palestine, however, believe that land belongs to them and the Israelis have no right to stay there. That's why they're always struggling with each other, and they use their religious texts to justify their actions.

But considering the harsh conditions people are exposed to there, especially the young teens mentioned from the documentary, why they fight no longer matters. They fight because they have to in order to survive. Those kids most likely saw many of their own die at the hands of the opposing side and started developing vengeful feelings toward one another regardless of their past. Call it indoctrination, but their personal experience with death also plays a good part in it.

the JEWS in israel, already offered the palestinians 97% of the areas that are consdiered as "the occupied territories" in 2000
it has nothing to do with "promised land" because aside from a small group of jewish extremists, no one wants to live in the west bank
its not religion thats keeping this conflict alight
its a refusal by the Palestinian leadership to compromise about anything
its either all or nothing as far as they are concerned, which is why they still, to this day, have nothing

these peace talks are going to fail, just like the last 20 years of peace talks did

[ChainLegacy]

Of course it is a matter of religion. If it wasn't why does the state of Israel even exist? It was created as a nation for religious reasons. Only problem is, equally religious people already lived there. Zionist Jews and Palestinian Muslims are on average just too intense about their religions. Give it a rest, look at the world around you, breathe deep, and toss out the 3000 year old fairy tales. At least that is my take.

Also I am not anti-religious just anti-fundamentalist so don't interpret my message as such.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

I think the root of the problem isn't religion itself, but the general idealism that comes from said religion. Religious texts can be interpreted in a million ways, but the idialism remains the same. The problem between Israel and Palestine has its roots in religion, but by the end of the day, the problem comes down to land-ownership. The Jewish in Israel believe their country is the promised land. Palestine, however, believe that land belongs to them and the Israelis have no right to stay there. That's why they're always struggling with each other, and they use their religious texts to justify their actions.

But considering the harsh conditions people are exposed to there, especially the young teens mentioned from the documentary, why they fight no longer matters. They fight because they have to in order to survive. Those kids most likely saw many of their own die at the hands of the opposing side and started developing vengeful feelings toward one another regardless of their past. Call it indoctrination, but their personal experience with death also plays a good part in it.

That is one of the points I am directing at. According to the 10 Commandments, one of which is "Thou Shalt Not Kill", WHY did David kill to protect his people, and of all sorts, beheaded Goliath instead of just stabbing him to death?

The point is that each and every part of these texts are singled out and solely interpreted to substantiate for personal deeds. In other words, the books have nothing but a provision of a variety of "moral" excuses for inhumane deeds.

It is either Gabriel/Azrael/any other angel have lousy PR and communication skills (obviously because they speak in such an ambiguous and archaic way), or that the preachers simply interpreted it to further their personal goals.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Of course it is a matter of religion. If it wasn't why does the state of Israel even exist? It was created as a nation for religious reasons. Only problem is, equally religious people already lived there. Zionist Jews and Palestinian Muslims are on average just too intense about their religions. Give it a rest, look at the world around you, breathe deep, and toss out the 3000 year old fairy tales. At least that is my take.

Also I am not anti-religious just anti-fundamentalist so don't interpret my message as such.

actually, its not true
Zionism, at least in its origin is the idea that, the Jewish people, are exactly that
a people
a nation in exile
and as a people, are entitled to self determination just like all other people
and guess what, the world more or less agreed with them even DECADES before the holocaust
the balfur declaration was given during the days of WWI
the league of nations mandate for the british in palestine makes it clear that they are to set the grounds for the creation of the jewish national home IN palestine years before world war II
the US house of representitives also passed a resolution supporting this in 1922 (resolution 360)
"god" has nothing to do with the formation of the state of israel

the original zionists were also considerably more secular then you realize
the founder hertzel actually made it clear that the rabbies would remain in their temples, just as the army would remain in its bases
and the REALLY insanely fundamentalist jews, actually OPPOSE the idea of the state of israel, for what they claim are religious reasons (they don't believe in jews taking control of their own fate)

the question is basically this
do you see jews as simply a religion and nothing else
or as a nationality, culture, customs, language, etc
in other words, a people, in the same way that the British are a people and the French are a people
israel is the product of people who believe the second option

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually, its not true
Zionism, at least in its origin is the idea that, the Jewish people, are exactly that
a people
a nation in exile
and as a people, are entitled to self determination just like all other people
and guess what, the world more or less agreed with them even DECADES before the holocaust
the balfur declaration was given during the days of WWI
the league of nations mandate for the british in palestine makes it clear that they are to set the grounds for the creation of the jewish national home IN palestine years before world war II
the US house of representitives also passed a resolution supporting this in 1922 (resolution 360)
"god" has nothing to do with the formation of the state of israel

the original zionists were also considerably more secular then you realize
the founder hertzel actually made it clear that the rabbies would remain in their temples, just as the army would remain in its bases
and the REALLY insanely fundamentalist jews, actually OPPOSE the idea of the state of israel, for what they claim are religious reasons (they don't believe in jews taking control of their own fate)

the question is basically this
do you see jews as simply a religion and nothing else
or as a nationality, culture, customs, language, etc
in other words, a people, in the same way that the British are a people and the French are a people
israel is the product of people who believe the second option

Nicely put. Finally somebody who understands that the roots of the conflict have almost nothing to do with religion.

I don't contend that the Jewish people was accepted as a Nation and entitled to self determination. But the problem is that it was done at the expense of the self determination rights of other peoples, which was normal practice in the still colonial background of the first half of the XXth century, but is pretty much condemned in every other part of the world nowadays.

About the concept of Israel's fading, I wasn't exactly thinking about the the Israeli Arabs, but about the much more numerous Palestinians Arabs, if we consider the following perspective.

Of course there will be no peace if both parties continue clinging to the ideas of a Greater Israel and the restoration of an Arab Palestine.

But the thing is, the current reasonable peace option, that of two (or three?) separate states, if we look at the History and the nature of the current socio-economic ties and desequelibrium, resembles a "Banthoustanization" of Palestinian territories.

And on mid-long term, I have serious doubts on the stability of it, given the historical precedence, even if everybody were to cheer for it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by JMvS

Nicely put. Finally somebody who understands that the roots of the conflict have almost nothing to do with religion.

I don't contend that the Jewish people was accepted as a Nation and entitled to self determination. But the problem is that it was done at the expense of the self determination rights of other peoples, which was normal practice in the still colonial background of the first half of the XXth century, but is pretty much condemned in every other part of the world nowadays.

the problem is that "Palestine" was an area, not a state
none of the countries in the area (syria, lebanon, iraq, israel, and jorden) were countries before WWI, and all were created following it
and more importantly, "palestine" was an area that contained both modern day israel AND jorden (as well as the west bank and gaza)
the formation of jorden (75% of historical palestine), SHOULD have cleared the whole "self-determination" bit for the arabs
the arabs of palestine didn't exactly get skimped out on land, since jorden contains so much more of historic palestine then israel does
except that AFTER the formation of jorden, the arabs STILL refused to accept a jewish state in Palestine on even SOME of the remaining 25%

there is a general misconception about the 1947 partition plan
it wasn't "jews get 55% and arabs get 45% of the territory of palestine" since "palestine" also includes jorden
it was "jews get 12% of palestine, the arabs get the other 88% divided between jorden and a NEW arab state"

About the concept of Israel's fading, I wasn't exactly thinking about the the Israeli Arabs, but about the much more numerous Palestinians Arabs, if we consider the following perspective.

there are 5.5 million jews in the middle east, and 200 million arabs
a few million palestinian more wont change a thing if they aren't actually part of israel demographically
and since they are saying very clearly that they want their own country, they aren't likely to BE part of Israel anyway

Of course there will be no peace if both parties continue clinging to the ideas of a Greater Israel and the restoration of an Arab Palestine.

and i'm saying, that the concept of a "Greater israel" is something only crazies support at this point
even the corrent israeli right-wing goverment states that there would be a two state solution eventually
as far as israel is concerned the dispute is no longer on the WHAT (a palestinian state) but rather on "on what areas of the map"

the problem is that the palestinians have yet to give up on the "restoration of an Arab Palestine", and other forces in the area (syria, iran, hizballa) keep telling them "go for it"
the day when a palestinian leader decides that the interest of his people are more important then his own personal pride, would be the day that peace can come
the problem is that this day is still years away

But the thing is, the current reasonable peace option, that of two (or three?) separate states, if we look at the History and the nature of the current socio-economic ties and desequelibrium, resembles a "Banthoustanization" of Palestinian territories.

And on mid-long term, I have serious doubts on the stability of it, given the historical precedence, even if everybody were to cheer for it.

the corrent peace negotiations are a moot point
the palestinians have no central goverment anymore after hamas took control of gaza
negotiations only work if the guy doing the negotiating can actually deliver, and the palestinian authority can't

[Xellos-_^]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MN2N1D26NV.DTL

As California's public schools have increasingly poured attention and resources into the state's struggling students, high academic learners - the so-called gifted students - have been getting the short shrift, a policy decision that some worry could leave the United States at a competitive disadvantage.
Critics see courses tailored for exceptional students as elitist and not much of an issue when compared with the vast number of students who are lagging grades behind their peers or dropping out of school. But a growing chorus of parents and advocates is asking the contentious question: What about the smart kids?

Idiocracy here we come.


i don't know about Europe but in Asia, the gift kids are actually reward for doing great. In the US if you do great in school they will cut your funding.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Everyone together now........LOL! (No offense to the Japanese citizens in this thread.)

Old news, but hardly any Japanese is going to find that offensive.
As a matter of fact, "Loopy" has become the the unofficial nickname for Hatoyama in the past three weeks, and the frustrated public is using it as a criticism ammunition in addressing the PM's nutty cluelessness.

In other words, thank you Washington post for providing a fititng, great nickname for our PM.

[Vexx]

My only comment on the Israel/Palestination debate is that its a failure to compromise in specific areas on both sides and a failure to control particularly obstinate zealots on both sides -- and that its a lot more about *land**resources* (agriculture, water rights, mineral rights) than anything else. A few extra negrep goes to the Palestinian side for having massively corrupt politicians in charge who abuse their own citizens.

The religion is an easy pretext to rile the populations up on both sides. Another reason religion and government power have no business being mixed and to be very suspicious of anyone waving flag and religious icon.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Idiocracy here we come.


i don't know about Europe but in Asia, the gift kids are actually reward for doing great. In the US if you do great in school they will cut your funding.

Kinda like France has been for decades, then.

I went through one of the best high schools in France. We didn't have the fancy computer labs or 20-student classes problem schools were gifted with. So when I hear them decried as elitist and unfair, I can't decide whether I should laugh or rage.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the question is basically this
do you see jews as simply a religion and nothing else
or as a nationality, culture, customs, language, etc
in other words, a people, in the same way that the British are a people and the French are a people
israel is the product of people who believe the second option

I do see a widespread Jewish culture and acknowledge that secular Jewish people exist, as it is definitely more than just a religion. I don't think that fact alone somehow justifies the formation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I say it was for religious reasons because why else was the 'holy land' chosen? You can say that it wasn't for religious reasons but for historical ones, but I don't buy that either, since that was so long ago and many other ethnic groups have been driven away from their original lands in that period of time. I think at the base of it even if the original Zionists were less fundamentalist than I had originally supposed, their decision to choose that specific land in the Middle East is rooted in religion.

Besides, let's not think Western approval is justification of anything, especially in the time period you're talking about. The US passed that resolution right on the tail end of a century long slaughtering of the native inhabitants of America. Kinda removes their credibility for me...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I do see a widespread Jewish culture and acknowledge that secular Jewish people exist, as it is definitely more than just a religion. I don't think that fact alone somehow justifies the formation of a Jewish state in Palestine. I say it was for religious reasons because why else was the 'holy land' chosen? You can say that it wasn't for religious reasons but for historical ones, but I don't buy that either, since that was so long ago and many other ethnic groups have been driven away from their original lands in that period of time. I think at the base of it even if the original Zionists were less fundamentalist than I had originally supposed, their decision to choose that specific land in the Middle East is rooted in religion.

Besides, let's not think Western approval is justification of anything, especially in the time period you're talking about. The US passed that resolution right on the tail end of a century long slaughtering of the native inhabitants of America. Kinda removes their credibility for me...

the reason for choosing it was actually not a historic or a religious one
it was a PRACTICAL one
the zionist movment was working on creating a jewish state, but for that to happen, you needed jews to actually GO there
and getting jews from different places to agree on something is a very hard thing to do (like herding cats)
and this is especially true, since the new state would NOT be in europe one way or another (at one point, there was talk on forming it in Uganda)
so the zionist movment needed to choose a place that would actually attract jews

jews had spent 2000 years dreaming of retuning to their long lost homeland
by creating the new state right where the old one used to be, you are creating a direct link to that 2000 year old dream
how else do you convince jews from all over the world to leave their old lives behind and move to the middle of the desert to start building a country from nothing
how many people do YOU know who would leave everything behind and move to modern day Africa
it was about motivating people, and for THAT, you need more then just the promise of a "state"
you need a symbol to rally people behind
something that would drive people to leave their homes and venture into the middle of nowhere in search of a dream
"a homeland"
"THE homeland"
the one they spent 2000 years dreaming of

and it worked like a charm
it drove hundreds of thousands of jews from all over the world to converge on a piece of desert in one of the most hostile areas on earth, and in the middle of nowhere they started building a country
its still working today, as even on a slow year you have tens of thousands of jews immigrating to israel every year

[ChainLegacy]

Sounds really ideological and not very realistic or fair to me. There were already people who thought that 'piece of the desert' was their sacred homeland. Yeah, I understand your sentiment for wanting a Jewish nation. That really isn't justification for it, though, more just the reason why it happened.

My post does not dispute history, just whether the history was the right thing to do. So not really understanding that petition I got.

[fertygo]

Indonesia’s Sri Mulyani Given Top World Bank Role (Update1)




By Aloysius Unditu and Sandrine Rastello

May 5 (Bloomberg) -- Indonesia’s Finance Minister Sri Mulyani Indrawati, who has been a candidate to head her nation’s central bank, was selected to be a top adviser to World Bank President Robert Zoellick.

Sri Mulyani will start June 1 as one of the Washington- based bank’s three managing directors, the highest rank under Zoellick. She “brings a unique set of skills and experience to the World Bank Group, from the vantage point of an advancing middle-income country that still faces significant challenges of poverty,” Zoellick said in an e-mailed statement.

The selection highlights the rising global role of Indonesia, the fourth most-populous nation and a member of the Group of 20 emerging and developed countries. It may also affect Indonesia’s economic leadership, as Sri Mulyani was one of two candidates proposed last June to head Bank Indonesia, an appointment stymied by a parliamentary probe led by factions within the governing coalition and members of the opposition.

“The appointment is like a win-win solution,” said Purbaya Yudhi Sadewa, an economist at Danareksa Research Institute in Jakarta. The new job can help Sri Mulyani save “face here in Indonesia. She has been facing a lot of political pressure,” he said.

Stocks fell after the announcement left it unclear who will succeed Sri Mulyani as finance minister. The Jakarta Composite Index fell 1.4 percent to 2,918.57 as of 9:50 a.m. local time, compared with a 1 percent decline for the regional MSCI Asia Pacific index.

Regional Responsibilities

Sri Mulyani, 47, will replace Juan Jose Daboub, who will complete his four-year term June 30, overseeing 74 nations in Latin America, the Caribbean, East Asia and the Pacific, the Middle East and North Africa, the bank said. Daboub is a former El Salvador finance minister.

The last managing director that Zoellick appointed was Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, a former Nigerian finance and foreign minister, in October 2007. The third managing director, Graeme Wheeler, said in January that he will leave the institution by the end of next month. Wheeler worked at the New Zealand Treasury before joining the Washington-based development bank.

“It is a great honor for me and also for my country to have this opportunity to contribute to the very important mission of the bank in changing the world,” Sri Mulyani said in the statement.

Bank Century

Sri Mulyani and Vice President Boediono, who was the last central bank governor, have been the target of an opposition campaign accusing them of abusing their authority during the 6.7 trillion-rupiah ($740 million) bailout of PT Bank Century in 2008, during the global financial crisis.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono’s administration has been credited with helping bring political stability to Indonesia, which has seen economic growth accelerate and inflation moderate in recent years.

The country’s benchmark Jakarta Composite Index of stocks has soared 67 percent in the past 12 months, the second-best performer among 20 Asian indexes tracked by Bloomberg News, after Sri Lanka. The rupiah has been the region’s best- performing currency in that time, advancing 15 percent against the dollar.

Sri Mulyani “has guided economic policy” for Indonesia, “navigating successfully in the midst of the global economic crisis, implementing key reforms, and earning the respect of her peers across the world,” the World Bank said in its statement, which was released late May 4 Washington time.

To contact the reporter on this story: Sandrine Rastello in Washington at srastello@bloomberg.net; Aloysius Unditu in Jakarta at aunditu@bloomberg.net

Great, the only person who competent enough on my country government will leave.
I blame my idiotic Parliament and collegians because keep bitchin" on her without praising GREAT work of her.
I don't know again about what future this country gonna be, Smart people always leavin" and the idiots stay.

This news really shock me, and I'm not even care about my bad grammar on this post.

[MikaMiaka]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the question is basically this
do you see jews as simply a religion and nothing else
or as a nationality, culture, customs, language, etc
in other words, a people, in the same way that the British are a people and the French are a people
israel is the product of people who believe the second option

I think that is a pretty interesting point. Correct me if I am wrong, but implicit in your statement is the acknowledgment that the Jewish settlement of Israel is justified because that land belongs to them, as attested by history. If this is the argument, then how far back can we go? Would it then be justified to tell everyone living in America who are not Native Americans to go back to the land of our ancestors?

From what I understand, the Jewish culture and faith dates back to around 3000 years ago. They were then exiled sometime in mid 500 BCE (but returned sometime after). So, I think if you are to compare them to the British or the French in terms of ownership of land, would you count the civilization that was there before them? And on the same token, in terms of viewing them as a nationality with its own culture, would one say the same for the Romans? Would it be justified if we had a group of Romans who now claim all the areas that used to be their empire? I think the thing with that argument is -- how far back can we go in terms of saying that a land belongs to a particular group?

I think it is a hard question to ask and to answer. But I guess the problem with Israel as it exists now lies in the novelty of its creation -- it was created in modern times, and the mandate by the League of Nations are viewed by some as a form of remuneration for all the wrongs that they suffered. I can't say it was the wrong thing to do nor can I say it is right. I have no idea and it is way too complicated to contemplate. What I can say is that I find the concept extremely foreign -- would we be able to accept such an act nowadays, by any government or a collection thereof?

And as to the question of whether religion is a factor in exacerbating the conflict, I find it hard for anyone to deny that religion plays a role. When thinking about it, I see the fundamental divergence which causes us to have different views:

One view is to say that religion, in and of itself, the way it is written, is not meant to be used the way it is, as a justification for the means employed. So, this view puts the blame on those who use religion in a way that it is not meant to be used. Ergo, religion is not to blame.

Another view, and this is the way I see it, religion is what you make of it. There is of course a set script, but there are also people who go off script in the name of religion, and I think those who are arguing against religion being a factor cites the separation of the two. I view it as intrinsically linked. I'm not saying religion is bad per se -- in fact, it is completely necessary or else it wouldn't be around for this long. I think man was put on earth, and he first found religion and then a way to make wine. But I am saying that when you say you do things in the name of your religion, then I'm not going just to blame you as an individual, I will also look at your religion and question the things in that religion that gave you that view.

For example, imagine a hypothetical in which religious teachings don't condemn homosexuality, and the phrase "thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" was stricken from the Bible. Would more people accept homosexuality then? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact that the phrase is in the Bible justifies those who say that the Bible erodes the acceptance of homosexuality, and that such a phrasing from the Bible, believed by so many, can influence people, including parents who in turn influence and raise their children in accordance to certain viewpoints.

So, I don't think you can blame just the zealots nor can you just blame the religion. I think that both, taken in conjunction with each other, results in zealots who feel justified in their beliefs as well as their means to their ends.

[Azuma Denton]

Originally Posted by fertygo

Great, the only person who competent enough on my country government will leave.
I blame my idiotic Parliament and collegians because keep bitchin" on her without praising GREAT work of her.
I don't know again about what future this country gonna be, Smart people always leavin" and the idiots stay.

This news really shock me, and I'm not even care about my bad grammar on this post.

As a fellow Indonesia, i agree with you...

Those parliaments guys wants her to quit and force all the blame into her.
Yes, she now quits as a finance minister, but will be appointed as one of director of World Bank.
Great, stocks has been plunging since the news started, and its only two days.


I wish i have means to blow up that parliament house...

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

As a fellow Indonesia, i agree with you...

Those parliaments guys wants her to quit and force all the blame into her.
Yes, she now quits as a finance minister, but will be appointed as one of director of World Bank.
Great, stocks has been plunging since the news started, and its only two days.


I wish i have means to blow up that parliament house...

You should have started short selling! You can make a fortune within 2-3 days you know!

Since Indonesia is considered a very patriarchal state due to Islam as its main religion being heavily practiced, I wasn't surprised that chauvinism, combined with relative incompetency of the government, forced her out.

I know I am inviting negreps for lambasting the Indonesian government, and that's due to stating facts being more important than being politically correct.

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

I wish i have means to blow up that parliament house...

Chill man. If you think like that, you will be no different from the JI guy which burned off precious weekends of 18 year old males serving their national service.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

As a fellow Indonesia, i agree with you...

Those parliaments guys wants her to quit and force all the blame into her.
Yes, she now quits as a finance minister, but will be appointed as one of director of World Bank.
Great, stocks has been plunging since the news started, and its only two days.


I wish i have means to blow up that parliament house...

Yes, Parliament never doin' any good on this country anyway. They're only want to make public hate the Government, and ironically people running on their circle.

God... ok, granted. Monkey which can only "booooo"ing on Parliament Council win, and the only people who actually make this Country better will work for other side pigs.

I hope the next Finance Minister will from Professional side, can't leave this spot for those Politic Party.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

You should have started short selling! You can make a fortune within 2-3 days you know!

Since Indonesia is considered a very patriarchal state due to Islam as its main religion being heavily practiced, I wasn't surprised that chauvinism, combined with relative incompetency of the government, forced her out.

I know I am inviting negreps for lambasting the Indonesian government, and that's due to stating facts being more important than being politically correct.

ROFL, What you're talking about mate.
These day on this country, Party Politic even choose to nominate Idiot Porn Star as Parliament member, and Province leader. And most of it get what they want ROFLMAO.
This country have no future and shame anymore... even the only one brilliant economic heroes choose to leave

[Autumn Demon]

SWAT team breaks into home, fires seven rounds at family’s pit bull and corgi (?!) as a seven-year-old looks on.

They found a “small amount” of marijuana, enough for a misdemeanor charge. The parents were then charged with child endangerment.

So smoking pot = “child endangerment.” Storming a home with guns, then firing bullets into the family pets as a child looks on = necessary police procedures to ensure everyone’s safety.

Just so we’re clear.

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/0...ssouri-family/

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/0...ssouri-family/

Eh...actually it counts as neutralising potential threats, since dogs can be trained to attack intruders with their natural aggressiveness. I am inviting negreps, but I am just pointing that out.

If they are shooting any other kind, it would be ridiculous. But I understand their reason for shooting dogs, although it may seem out of place to the general uninformed public.