Is Anime being abused?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I wish could posrep Asf twice in a row, he has a clearer look on anime and anime history than most people.

Triple_R, "If you don't like it, don't watch it" is a very bad argument when it's used to block criticism of a certain show but I think it s a valid argument when somebody demands to change a whole genre just because he like "only" 30 percent of it.

In the context of the OP, I disagree with you.

I don't see where the OP was asking for a total whitewash change. I saw her arguing for a reduction in fanservice, not an outright elimination of it. Perhaps her choice of words were a bit too strong, but it seemed to me like she simply wanted a bit less fanservice - not to expect to have it removed entirely.

Wanting to wipe a common part of a entertainment medium out entirely - yes, perhaps the statement "If you don't like it, don't watch it" is a valid argument there.

But, if your argument is simply that the balance , or ratio, of fanservice anime to non-fanservice anime isn't what it should be (and that was where the OP was going with the 70% to 30% figures she suggested) - well, I frankly think that it's a bit of a cop out reply to say "If you don't like it, don't watch it". That sort of reply is simply beside the point.

As for your list of anime titles for this Spring - I certainly haven't watched them all yet, but then there's also the list of fanservicey anime titles that the OP made. Part of the issue may be a simple marketing one. The animes that tend to be the most heavily marketed and hyped nowadays tend to be the more fanservicey ones, as reflected by the list that Ash Falls Down provided.

... I'm not sure if I understand your standards at all. I surely find the silhouette naked female body more "titillating" than striped panties.

My point is that a silhouetted naked female body is a subtler... or more tasteful, in the eyes of a lot of people I guess... form of sexuality than panty shots. Let me put it this way... if an older female relative of mine saw me watching an anime in which there was a nude silhouetted transformation scene in it, I would feel less embarrassed by that than if an older female relative of mine saw me watching an anime full of panty shots.

It goes back to what I was saying concerning how the sexual appeal of Faye Valentine in Cowboy Bebop was largely a more classy, and truly mature, sort of appeal. Same with Lust and Sloth in Full Metal Alchemist.

When you're trying to create a popular piece that's what you do in any medium. And it works every time.

That's highly speculative. Would Code Geass have done better, or worse, if it had less slice of life and more mecha action? I could see both sides of such an argument.

Also, would the Spiderman movie have done better or worse with more sexual content and a more adult rating? I suspect that it would have done worse.

Maybe you should just stay clear of the mainstream?

A great deal of what I like is mainstream. Should I give that up simply because I'd like to see a bit more variety?

Also, you seem to assume the anime industry could simply expand their audience if they did the "right" thing (in your POV). It's not so simple due to the low status anime has outside of the otaku community. They try it with Noitamina. But you surely can't reach the mainstream by producing more giant robot shows.

Why do you say that? The Transformers movies have done quite well.

But in no way you can draw parallels to Hollywood because society doesn't declare you an outcast for watching any Hollywood movie that isnt on their white list.

Well, if you want anime to be seen less of an "outcast hobby" than it seems to me that a good way to do that would be try to appeal to a broader audience.

People aren't as against the notion of animation can be for adults as some might think. I have plenty of adult friends that like Gundam Wing, or DBZ, or Magic Knight Rayearth, or Full Metal Alchemist, or Rozen Maiden.

As for the self-referencing, I don't like it either. But there aren't that much shows that rely on it, Lucky Star is probably the worst example ... it's also totally unfunny because you expect to get at least one reference per minute. But in most anime you simple don't see it if you don't recognize it.

People pick up on it pretty fast. I showed one of my sisters three or four different animes, and that was all she needed to see before she said "this entertainment genre seems awfully derivative".

So no harm done. Star Trek is a bad example BTW. "Self-referencing" is a bit ill-termed.

I disagree with you on the basis that Star Trek may very well have as large and passionate a fanbase as anime as a whole has. So, on that basis, I think that my Star Trek example stands.

When you build a rich uinverse you have to make use of it for the sake of internal logic. And that's also the appeal of it. Yes, it becomes more and more impenetrable to outsiders and that's why you simply have to put it at rest at some point instead of trying to have the cake and eat it. As for US sci-fi Farscape would be an example that was firing off references left and right, or to be more exact: Crichton did. (It also depended heavily on fan-service).

EDIT for your last post: NGE wasn't heavy on fanservice? COME ON!

I think that my conception of fanservice is a bit different than your's. Females drawn and looking sexy isn't fanservice in and of itself, imo - nor is putting them in bodysuits.

Fanservice, to me, is something that you can't miss it for what it is - whether you're looking for it or not. A person can watch Rei and Asuka go fighting in their skin-tight battle suits and not find it... out of place; it doesn't rip them out of the broader plot - an ill-placed panty shot will do just that though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Asf

First, I want to apologize for being needlessly antagonistic in my last post. I think I was just pouting about the lack of attention for my previous post. Sorry about that.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I certainly didn’t mean to imply adults shouldn’t enjoy kids’ cartoons. I’m in my 30s and one of my favorite shows on right now is Shugo Chara.

But you compared the children’s market of last century with the adult market of this century and implied some kind of change-over-time because of it, so I wanted to point out that doesn’t really make sense to do.

In your most recent post you seem to have moved on from the topic of trends in fanservice to the topic of modern masterpiece shows or the lack thereof, which is a whole other topic that I’ll leave alone, hehe. (Though I hear Dennou Coil and Noein may be worth looking into if you liked Lain.)


I think, probably then, you may currently lack enough familiarity to really make judgments regarding trends in Japanese animation. (If anything can be called this generation’s Sailor Moon, PreCure is it.)

I’m gonna guess a little here and presume that your exposure is heavily influenced by a particular set of websites/forums you frequent, and that those places have a decent number of very vocal otaku who make a lot of noise about their current beloved moe-moe characters in K-ON! or DAT ASS in Queen’s Blade or whatever, but I think that’s just suffering from selection bias. (Maybe it’s not trends in anime, but rather trends in English-speaking fandom on the internet that you’re noticing?)

Thanks for the recommendations. And you may be right about selection bias. I've been on a few anime boards, and... almost all of the titles discussed there are fanservicey ones. I've actively tried to find new anime via Wiki and Google searchs (searching by anime genre), but haven't found much new listed there that sounded like it would be interesting to me. I've watched some Valkyria Chronicles lately, and that looks somewhat promising. It's probably obvious by now that I lean towards sci-fi/mecha/action-oriented/war-based anime.

Anyway, I didn't find you overly antagonistic at all, but I accept the apology all the same. I can understand where a topic like this can get a bit heated, and I can take a few glancing blows (such as basically being told to stop watching mainstream stuff).

[Slice of Life]

Triple_R, I think your main problem is that you don't see that anime is produced by and sold to Japanese people. Spiderman is designed for the US market, anime for the Japanese otaku market. What Spiderman does or does not is heavily influenced by what as much US-Americans as possible want to see or don't want to see. Not what the Japanese otaku think about it. It's not even said that they all crave for all that particular fanservice you don't like. As long as the majority is indifferent to it it will be included to reach a few more percent of the potential audience.

And when I say you should give up on mainstream I mean anime mainstream (= reaches a large part of the otaku subculture) which is a completely different mainstream from whatever mainstream stuff you're otherwise interested in.

The animes that tend to be the most heavily marketed and hyped nowadays tend to be the more fanservicey ones,

I don't think that Queen's Blade is most marketed and hyped anywhere outside of /a/. And who cares what is hyped? You have 3 full months to make up your own mind about merely 30-40 shows before the next season starts. That's not hard.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In the context of the OP, I disagree with you.

You simply don't go into a music shop and say "I don't like 70 percent of the music here so you're doing it wrong."

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why do you say that? The Transformers movies have done quite well.

With all due respect, Transformers is trash and will be forgotten as fast as Armageddon or The Core or w/e. And again, Transformers is an US movie for an US audience.

Well, if you want anime to be seen less of an "outcast hobby" than it seems to me that a good way to do that would be try to appeal to a broader audience.

You might have a chance to sell Nodame Cantabile to adult non-otaku Japanese. But anything that contains a giant robot is a lost cause.

I have plenty of adult friends that like Gundam Wing, or DBZ, or Magic Knight Rayearth, or Full Metal Alchemist, or Rozen Maiden.

Which aren't Japanese.

I disagree with you on the basis that Star Trek may very well have as large and passionate a fanbase as anime as a whole has. So, on that basis, I think that my Star Trek example stands.

I don't understand what that has to do with what I said. The problem the Star Trek was once you have Klingons you can't suddenly pretend they don't exist just because newcomers might wonder who these bulkheads are. So it will get more and more inpenetrable to these newcomers and there's not much the authors can do. Tthey already tried to cut ties in Voyager and Enterprise but it didn't turn out so well. The Lucky Star universe span over 26 eps only so the fact that it relied heavily on references to outside of this universe it entirely the author's decision.

Fanservice, to me, is something that you can't miss it for what it is - whether you're looking for it or not. A person can watch Rei and Asuka go fighting in their skin-tight battle suits and not find it... out of place; it doesn't rip them out of the broader plot - an ill-placed panty shot will do just that though.

Shinji oogling at Misato's lingerie. Shinji stumbling over naked Rei (plus more lingerie), Asuka's panty flash introduction (and the fact that it's not even shown makes it only more immature). Naked sync tests. ... That's all very much the otaku approach at sexiness and not so much what you call "classy".

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that my conception of fanservice is a bit different than your's. Females drawn and looking sexy isn't fanservice in and of itself, imo - nor is putting them in bodysuits.

Fanservice, to me, is something that you can't miss it for what it is - whether you're looking for it or not. A person can watch Rei and Asuka go fighting in their skin-tight battle suits and not find it... out of place; it doesn't rip them out of the broader plot - an ill-placed panty shot will do just that though.

Then your defination of fanservice is wrong. It's not just about showing panty shots or the like. It's something put in mainly as a bonus for the fans. Of course it includes things like panty shots, but it can also be things like a character shown dressed as another character the VA did in another series, such as Konata dressed as Haruhi in Lucky Star for example. A panty shot of a popular character? That character in a sexy pose? That character in a maid outfit? That character dressed as another one the VA played? The character nude? It's all fanservice. Really the term is highly vague and can cover a lot. Getting back to Eva, are you going to try to claim Asuka's scene about thermal expansion and if it applied to her breasts wasn't fanservice?

[FireChick]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...lanning-states

........................THIS is EXACTLY why I think anime is being abused and exploited and going TOO FAR. I mean, DON'T GIVE THIS ATROCIOUS PIECE OF MALARKY ANOTHER ANIME!!! JUST MAKE AN OVA OR SOMETHING!!!

[NeoSam]

LOL

Its still unknown if it will be getting a second TV anime season or an OVA.

[yezhanquan]

Don't sweat over it. No one beats Gainax and Sunrise in milking the cash cow. Be glad that it's only another anime.

[MeoTwister5]

And yet... life goes on...

[Sheba]

Did I hear the sound of another e-monocle dropping and breaking? Kanokon is just another of these anime ignored by more discerning people.

[Midonin]

Even if it was an OVA you'd be complaining.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by FireChick

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...lanning-states

........................THIS is EXACTLY why I think anime is being abused and exploited and going TOO FAR. I mean, DON'T GIVE THIS ATROCIOUS PIECE OF MALARKY ANOTHER ANIME!!! JUST MAKE AN OVA OR SOMETHING!!!

For once I actually agree with you. Why the hell is Kanokon getting a second season? The first season used up it's best "OMG I can't believe they just did that!!!!!" material in the first half, leaving a rather sorry fanservice show made by people who clearly need to read more Aristotle. If they read more Aristotle, they'd know that moderation is a good thing and wouldn't have forced the viewer to make a choice between a unattractively overboobed lead and a unattractively flat rival.

I respectfully submit that the anime industry should be providing kemonomimi fanservice shows that are vastly superior to Kanokon.

[WhiteWings]

I'm sure there are plenty of 'good quality' animes still being made regularly. The problem now is that such anime is often drowned out and pushed to the sidelines by the tidal wave of 'cheap quality' anime.

The good ones are there but they tend to be harder to find with all the flash and bang of the cheap ones.

[animeboy12]

I liked the first season of kanokon and I'm happy there's a second season but I'm too lazy to defend it.

This topic still reeks of "anime studios shouldn't release titles I don't like". What anime companies are doing is no different from what goes on in other medium. Popular genre's and franchises get series and sequels, there's not much you can do about it except support anime series you like. At the same time there will always be powerful, moving (albeit sometimes pretentious) series like Haibane Renmei, or full metal alchemist, but the expect that the majority of anime has to be like that especially since it's easier and more economically-viable to produce cheap thirlls and flashes seems kinda silly, everybody's preference don't have to match your and just because they don't doesn't mean you should hold there's preferences in a lower regard.

Personally, I'm just glad that most of these flashes and thrill that anime produces are actually watchable. If you think something like queen's blade is beneath you I suggest tuning in to vh1 or mtv every once in a while.

[Kamui4356]

Why are they making a second season of Kanokon? Because the first one made enough money to warrent a sequel obviously. People are buying the dvds and merchendice, so they're making more. The point is now and always has been to make money on anime. Welcome to capitalism.

[christinemarie]

Compare the group of children that watch anime...

70's and 80's Most of the children back then are well disciplined so anime created back then are designed for those kind of children with the exception mecha anime...

90's The start of success of ecchi anime and r-18 hentais which highly focus on the teen-agers and not children. Since the most dominant age during 90's in Japan is around 13-25.

00's Enter out of this place type genre of anime and every year the animation companies (since there are new animation company entered) struggle to figure out which genre would be successful and earn them more money whether ecchi, action, suspense, and/or other type of anime. Internet became more popular and sites like Crunchyroll, Youtube, Animesuki, and other more introduced anime to people and further increase the number of people who become interested to anime.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by FireChick

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...lanning-states

........................THIS is EXACTLY why I think anime is being abused and exploited and going TOO FAR. I mean, DON'T GIVE THIS ATROCIOUS PIECE OF MALARKY ANOTHER ANIME!!! JUST MAKE AN OVA OR SOMETHING!!!

lol @ rage
.. so before you knew such shows existed you were like
and when you became aware they existed, you're like

Originally Posted by WhiteWings

I'm sure there are plenty of 'good quality' animes still being made regularly. The problem now is that such anime is often drowned out and pushed to the sidelines by the tidal wave of 'cheap quality' anime.

The good ones are there but they tend to be harder to find with all the flash and bang of the cheap ones.

this is really not the case depending on your definition of 'cheap' vs good. Again, looking at winter, spring and summer, the ecchi titles are still small by comparison, well under 30% the OP wanted for the year.

In any case, it's all subjective. There's always an audience for stuff you don't like.

[Kafriel]

Alright, truth be told, some titles have been slaughtered in their anime adaptations (Rosario+Vampire comes to mind, from dark,mysterious and having a HINT of ecchi manga, it turned into a full-ecchi anime with all the rest left out). Still, most of the titles I've watched lately have been pretty serious: FullMetal Alchemist, Soul Eater, Reborn!, Xam'd, Casshern SINS-especially the last one was particularly examplary of what an anime should be like, not so much because I'm fond of the gender but because of the way it was made.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by christinemarie

Compare the group of children that watch anime...

[snip]

There is a market that you forgot to mention. The direct-to-video market in 80's Japan that was the (even less mainstream) forerunner of modern late night shows. A lot of OVAs were produced and virtually all forgotten...for good reason, I am told. Moreover, I am led to believe that many of them were indeed full of violence, sex, and squick fetishes. Naturally, that's quite a gap between classic children's cartoons from the period and these works, though both are very much "anime."

Though I haven't seen any of these old OVAs myself, I don't think people usually lie about that. So it is safe to say that stuff like "Kanokon" has existed long before; it's just that the internet has allowed these underground things to flow out of the sewers into the sunlight. Me, I just ignore them.

[Kafriel]

^ rest assured, they don't lie. The first OVAs that were released in cinemas were about barbarians slicing up half-nude girls with chainsaws...glad I only saw it in an anime documentary and didn't see the whole movie. So, certainly the anime industry moved on from "that" path to a more friendly approach for kids (see doraemon), and after the mid 90's took a more teenager approach. The case the OP's referring to is pretty recent (see Dokuro etc.) but I think it's more of a few isolated cases rather than a new trend that's gonna flood the market.

[Slice of Life]

The OVAs of old weren't all gore and porn. They were simply ... bad. The "serious" ones were always about zero-dimensional bad guys vs. zero-dimensional good guys for zero-dimensional reasons until the big end fight after 45-90 minutes. 10yo running through the woods with toy guns and a heap of action genre tropes in their subconscious make up stories as good, I swear. Some OVAs did rely heavily on tits and violence though, and not only compared to today's heavily censored stuff. On the other hand there were rather badly made action/comedy combinations, A-Ko being the oldest I know.

There were also some good OVAs of course.

Still, if there was ever a lost decade of anime then IMHO around the rise and fall of the OVAs 1985-1995, even though it had stuff like Patlabor and Maison Ikkoku, too. In that light it doesn't surprise me that most people looking for a Golden Age of anime somewhere in the past seem to locate it either before that period (Versailles no Bara - Macross -Votoms) or after it (from Eva or Bebop to a fuzzy end date but before today in any case because today sucks.) Or maybe it's just my wrong impression.

I still say the Golden Age is today though.


Oh, and the enjoyment I draw from anime does not depend on the existence or nonexistence of a second, third, or tenth season of Kanokon.