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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 294 | 82.12% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 39 | 10.89% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 13 | 3.63% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 7 | 1.96% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 2 | 0.56% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 2 | 0.56% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.28% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 358. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-04-20, 11:54 | Link #1123 | |
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Age: 35
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I mean, I know that BSoD is some tvtropes reference, probably even one whose article I've read before, but I can't quite call up to mind what it means right now. Even if I did though, I'm not quite fond of defining a show's events or characters by one trope or another and saying that there is absolutely no meaning to them beyond that. There's a good question of characterization here, one that I think should be obviously interesting and fruitful should anybody try to examine and take a look at it, and that question is "Why did Mami decide to kill everybody?". "She went crazy" is a good enough handwave if that's all you want from this show, but I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to think more deeply about it (and neither am I even the only one to be doing so). My tentative interpretation has been that Mami snapped because she has been clinging onto a 'cool' and 'admirable' elder Puella Magi image. We know that the reason Mami played up the Mahou Shoujo role and helped Kyuubey out with his recruiting was 'cause she was lonely. Part of the same reveal in episode 3 was also that she felt guilty about it ("I'm not a person you should admire" etc.). Well, one of the things guilt can do to you if you don't own up to it is it makes you nervous and paranoid; i.e exactly the sort of emotions I can see in Mami's outburst. I.e. The guilt from the line of thought of "Being a Puella Magi isn't awesome and righteous like I was trying to make them think it was, and I was the one who roped them into it (because I was lonely)" was what immediately lead to "everybody has to die now". The rest of what I wrote about Mami's 'cold and calculating nature' is simply an extrapolation extending some of that paranoia onto the rest of Mami's relationships. (Didn't you know? Emotions are in fact rational and actually can be analyzed :P.) By the way, Mami binding Homura happened after she took out Kyouko. She clearly went after Kyouko first, and similarly left the threat of Madoka's presence completely unguarded. There's a clear separation in the level of apprehension/dangerousness Mami assigned each of the girls. Mami coldly took out Kyouko first (even though Kyouko was the one to whom comrades and friendship was most meaningful at the moment) and she totally underestimated Madoka. You don't have to agree with my interpretations for why this happened but I don't think there needs to be any argument as to the fact that this distinction was actually there. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-04-20 at 12:06. |
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2011-04-20, 12:14 | Link #1124 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Secondly, analyzing the scene is all well and good, but there's a difference between that and using a moment of mental instability to judge the rest of her character. That she of all the girls was the one to rationalize mass murder isn't the least bit surprising; as you said, she was a mentor type, both in illusion and reality. Yes she was clinging to that image, but image or no image that's what she was to the girls (Madoka and Sayaka, and in those timelines Homura as well). That it was her guilt of putting them in that situation that was twisted into her belief that they had to die is completely likely, but that still doesn't really say anything negative about her. Anybody would feel guilty seeing the negative repercussions of something they forced upon others; that isn't unique to Mami in the least. |
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2011-04-20, 15:40 | Link #1125 | ||
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Age: 35
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2011-04-20, 16:15 | Link #1126 | |
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Location: Austria
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Basically, I think that the show incourages us to take into account other people's points of view. Pretty much all the characters fail in some way, and they have their own reasons: Kyubey's too bureaucratic; Sayaka's too anxious; Mami's too upset; Madoka's too insecure... I still think that the show's basically picking apart the self-interst/altruism continuum, and redistributing it over social networks, with individuals as vortices (sources of turbulence). I wish I could express myself better about this; it's hard. |
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2011-04-20, 16:39 | Link #1127 | |
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I wonder if this makes any difference. Will Homura succeed because, unlike the others, she isn't forcing her decision over Madoka but instead acting on Madoka's request (albeit, a Madoka from another timeline)??
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-04-20 at 16:54. |
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2011-04-20, 16:57 | Link #1128 | |
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But I still disagree on the point of her actions being borne from a lack of trust since, while it is plausible that may have been a factor, it ultimately doesn't appear to be her motivation. And there is still a case to be made for the fact that, whether or not her actions were made in a proper frame of mind or if they are morally justifiable, she really had every right to come to the conclusion she did. And she isn't necessarily wrong, at least not in the sense that (perceived) mercy killing is probably the best way out. In this case it comes around to Dawnstorm's point, where it was a case of her making a decision without consulting the others rather than it being some selfish action. No denying the tragedy in it all, though; not sure where or if I implied that I was disputing that, but I'm not. |
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2011-04-20, 17:57 | Link #1129 | ||
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Location: Austria
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Basically, this scene shows, I think, the difference between considering someone's point-of-view and bowing to it. You still have to make your own decisions, and decisions mean risks. In this scene, Madoka is taking charge, but she's also accepting Homura's sacrifice. She hides the grief-seed, because she's considered Homura's point of view. There are things she wants to protect, and all she can do now is pass it on to Homura. Homura immediately accepts that because it's the trait she admires in Madoka, in the first place. And then she requests that Homura kill her... The hardest burden yet. Homura does comply, but it leaves a mark on her. For one thing, it sets off the I-won't-rely-on-anyone behaviour, and it also seems to trigger (or rather re-inforce?) the kindness-leads-to-trouble line of argument in her, the frustration with self-sacrifice. The idea that magical girls no longer matter once they contracted. They're doomed. (Would she have killed Sayaka? Heh! She killed Madoka! Anything after that is an anticlimax, emotionally, for her. Still hard, but it's been worse.) Quote:
It's quite possible that this makes a difference, but I'm not yet sure how t5 Madoka connects to the different timelines. |
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2011-04-20, 18:08 | Link #1130 | |
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I note for clarification that my statement that Mami acted out of self-defense and self-interest there is not any sort of condemnation for self-oriented priorities. The tragic aspect of the scene for me is that Mami's guilt and insecurities harmed her self-interests, as opposed to her intention of protecting them, and it think it is probably true that you could say this was a result of failing to take Madoka's point of view (i.e., that she didn't want everyone to die) into account properly. Part of the difficulty, I will admit, for me in understanding any sort of supposed altruism in Mami's decision to kill everybody is that I find it fairly difficult to conceive of there being any sort of genuine consideration for others in any sane human being coming to that sort of snap conclusion. The truth they had all just been forced to confront sucked, certainly, but could Mami seriously believe all (or even any) of them would actually prefer to die because of it? For a person to be convinced enough of that to not even bother asking the other parties, is for me rather unbelievable. (As far as Mami making the same decision for Kyouko as she made for herself in another timeline, I think there is a fairly significant difference there in that in Timeline 5 Kyouko chose to die because she believed she was 'protecting the one thing which was truly important' to her, and also that this conclusion was furthermore somewhat inspired and confirmed via observation of timeline 5 Homura; whereas Kyouko hypothetically choosing death after the destruction of Sayaka in timeline 3 would have been a pure act of despair and giving up on the world (which, well, it basically was as far as Mami was concerned, I'd say :P). So they are fairly different 'endings' for Kyouko from my perspective here.) I mean, I think we're in agreement here in that Mami didn't manage to take into account the other girls' perspectives. I don't see how that theme of the story necessarily suggests that there were altruistic intentions behind Mami's actions though. Whether acting in self-interest, or acting out of altruism, it is important to accurately understand an other parties' needs and priorities if one wants to successfully interact with them. Mami's act is a poor decision either way, but if it was the latter moral, Mami certainly didn't live to understand or regret it. And as far as altruism goes, I think understanding that you probably shouldn't kill somebody without trying to figure out how they feel about it should be pretty obvious anyways. So, maybe what I'm saying here is basically just that whether or not you think Mami acted altruistically when she decided to kill everybody is a matter of believability. I prefer more logical and realistic models of human behaviour over just assuming the good in them. I think it is possible for even good and decent people to act completely selfishly. I don't think there is any logical sort of argument to be made that you can kill other people against their will altruistically, but if somebody can present a very compelling argument in support of such a possibility, I suppose I might be able to be convinced otherwise. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-04-20 at 18:19. |
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2011-04-20, 18:18 | Link #1131 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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It is not true that Mami simply snaps under the sudden revelation that MGs become witches. We see in the course of the girls' fight with Octavia a process of realization of the dark truth, from the moment Kyoko asks, "What the hell are you? / What did you do to Sayaka?!," to Madoka's recognition that the witch is Sayaka, when she appeals to the witch by her human name, "Sayaka-chan, stop it! / Please remember!" Even after Homura explodes Octavia, there are a few moments as the anime registers in turn everyone's reactions: Kyoko is angry--"Sayaka, damn it...--Madoka is overwhelmed with horror and grief--"This is terrible! / It's too much!"--and Homura is upset--she doesn't say anything, but clenches her arms, and turns her head away in private grief. Only then does Mami act. And her action she justifies with a rationalization, after she has shot Kyoko: "If the Soul Gems give birth to witches, then we all have to die! / Both you and I!"
I am not saying Mami's decision is a cool rational one. But it is a decision, and not a sudden act of lunacy brought on by the sudden revelation that MGs become witches. Indeed, there is a perverse logic in her words: for if MGs are supposed to kill witches, then killing MGs before they become witches is not unreasonable. I believe Deconstructor led an extensive debate along this line a while ago. I am impressed by the amount of violence and antagonism that saturates this timeline, from Sayaka's lobbying to exclude Homura from the team and her openly expressed distrust of Kyoko, who she thinks is in cahoots with Homura, to the side view of the violent world of the Yakuza, as Homura steals their weapons, followed by Sayaka-Octavia's efforts to kill all the girls, and then the final spasm of violence, where Mami kills Kyoko and Madoka kills Mami. We can say that the revelation drives Mami over the edge. And all this violence and antagonism suggests that all the girls are already close to the edge. Still, as Sol Falling points out, only Mami crosses the line, so we need to ask why she and not any of the other girls breaks down. I go along with Sol Falling's explanation--it makes sense to me. But I wonder if the point of Mami's breakdown is to underline the contrast with Madoka--that she is able to kill Mami in Homura's self-defense, proving Madoka once and for all to be no shrinking violet, and that she is still able not to give in to the impulse to kill everything in despair, when she refuses Homura's suggestion to join her as a witch in the subsequent battle with WN. For all her emotionality, Madoka demonstrates a remarkable degree of self control in her expression of violence. I think we have to remember what the work of a MG is--it is to kill witches. And killing inevitably rubs off on the killer. You cannot serially hunt and kill witches without becoming changed by the experience. We see this I think in Mami's resort to violence in this scene, in Homura's habitual coldness and reserve, in Kyoko's willingness to fight Sayaka to the death, in Sayaka's frenzied mania while fighting the witch Elsa Maria. What truly corrupts a MG is not the use of magic but just the work of killing itself. Madoka is extraordinary in that of all the girls she does not seem to be affected by this corrupting violence. Like Gretchen of the Faust story, she seems to be able to remain pure in a fundamentally impure world. Madoka is already magical in just possessing this purity--it is as inexplicable as the supreme magical power QB ascribes to her. This pure nature is not absolute--like everyone else she too will become a witch. And she pays a price for it: as the foil to all the tragedies unfolding around her, she suffers one wave of pain after another, as her friends suffer and die in turn. Yet through it all she remains as she has been. While others around her fall apart, or die, or renew themselves, Madoka remains Madoka. Not by her effort, but by her distinctive nature, Madoka fulfills Homura's advice to her in the first episode to "please keep being the person you've always been." Last edited by hyperborealis; 2011-04-20 at 23:12. Reason: Needed a conclusion |
2011-04-20, 18:25 | Link #1132 | |
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i also want to bring up in ep 8 when Homura killed QB right before madoka was about to turn into a MG. Up until that point, homura showed no emotion in the series...it really showed a side of her that deepened her character. |
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2011-04-20, 18:25 | Link #1133 | ||
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It's not the simple. Homura may admire that trait of Madoka, but she also admonishes her for it. For example in the last timeline she outright criticizes Madoka for thinking her own life has little value, which is the core of her self-sacrificing tendencies. This a bit ironic though, considering Homura's own self-esteem issues. Then again, maybe that's why she said so in the first place. Maybe she knows what makes Madoka tick because she realizes it's pretty much the same thing that makes her act the way she acts. At any rate, I don't think Homura accepted Madoka's request just because she admires her. EDIT: Quote:
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2011-04-20, 19:00 | Link #1134 | ||||||
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I'm not surprised my post confuses you; it's not like I have a very clear position. Quote:
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Running out of time. ETA: Back again. Quote:
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*** Btw, what's the board-etiquette for coming back an hour or so later with no intervening posts? Edit last post, or add new one? Last edited by Dawnstorm; 2011-04-20 at 20:22. |
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2011-04-21, 00:52 | Link #1135 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Although it is interesting how it's possible to do a reasonable analysis of Mami's behavior in that scene, the reasons Mami was the one to have a breakdown were quite straightforward from a storywriting point of view:
With Sayaka disposed of, and Madoka and Homura reserved for Walpurgis Night, only Mami and Kyoko were "expendable" characters. Yet, why choose Mami as the trigger man (er, girl) instead of Kyoko? Because Mami had binds and a ranged attack. If Kyoko attacked Mami first, she may or may not have succeeded, but she definitely could have been stopped without killing her. Both characters had to be removed before Walpurgis Night, and this was the clearest way to do it. Yet, as I said at the start, they justified the killings by letting us know so much about the characters that we can accept that they would act this way in that situation. Rather than, "there was no other way to do it" that you find in other stories with similiar situations. |
2011-04-21, 01:24 | Link #1136 | |||
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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it's a little dark, but if this is a mere "mask", surprisingly it has eyelashes too, not only an eyelid, a few frames earlier. |
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2011-04-21, 01:25 | Link #1137 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Just a small thing, but why did they have to be? Either one could just as easily have survived that incident and then been offed during Walpurgisnacht. There's a remote possibility that either one surviving would have lessened the emotional suffering that culminated in Madoka asking Homura to go back and save her, but that's not a certainty.
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2011-04-21, 02:25 | Link #1138 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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If they hadn't died, people would wonder where they were when Madoka and Homura lay dying after defeating Walpurgis.
Killing them right after Oktavia was defeated saved on additional lines and scenes related to removing Mami and Kyoko while addressing how that event affected all the girls. It was brilliant! |
2011-04-21, 02:41 | Link #1139 | |
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madoka magica, time travel |
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