Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Discussion / Poll

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually we are both and neither. The story tells us that some of the human population developed PK and some did not. The ones that did not were turned into the monster rats.

Well if this story is our future we don't know which group we would become. Heck we don't even know if we would get this far because other groups were destroyed even earlier.

How many real-world people have psychic powers? And do we look for reasons to slaughter our children? Are we patterned after ape behavior? Do we have genetic modifications to keep us from killing one another?

I think that it's pretty clear that the human villagers are nothing like modern people, while the queerats are nowhere so dissimilar. The trap that Shinsekai Yori introduces is that we are supposed to think "What would we be like if we had these powers?" when the real question is "Which group describes us?"

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

How many real-world people have psychic powers? And do we look for reasons to slaughter our children? Are we patterned after ape behavior? Do we have genetic modifications to keep us from killing one another?

The series takes place in our future after the human species have developed psychic power. This is what the story is about.

The killing of children, scientific & genetic modifications all came about because of the development of these psychic powers. So of course we would not have developed these things in our society yet.

So no we are not more similar to the PK users or the monster rats. They are both humans and we don't know which one we will be. And each of us individually may be part of a different group.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by brocko

Tomiko went down long before Squealer's trial even occurred. That wasn't her running the courtroom.

It's important to keep in mind that the current generation of people are only following doctrines and traditions that have been passed down to them from previous generations. They uphold the status quo and do what they do because they were brought up that way. That it was for the best and that history tells them so. They have absolutely no idea that Queerats were in fact once a part of the human race and how atrocious their treatment of them really is, because they weren't suppose to have that knowledge in the first place. The ones who do and are actually responsible for the racial out-casting through genetic alterations would've been long gone by now. Who knows how many generations and years ago that would've been. I don't feel that it's totally fair to lay the blame on the current crop of people, when they just simply don't know any better due to how their society has been structured and designed by previous generations.

The general populace may not know, but you think Tomiko at the very least would not? Especially given how radical, relatively speaking, she is, how likely is it that she never analyzed the Bakenezumi genetic makeup?

[hero147]

While I don't agree with the methods employed for the punishment of squealer, if somebody had to be punished that way, squealer would have been my choice. However, this might be due to the fact that I do have an overwhelming amount of sympathy of what the Saki and her village went through.

I can't see Bakenezumi as human. Sure, their species may have once been human, but regardless, through inducing mutations within their genome, they aren't anymore. They're an entirely different species. The village controlling the Bakenezumi does not seem that much different from today's society where humans have dominion over every other species. All organisms on earth evolved from a single ancestor, yet we don't fret over killing a cow to eat a steak in today's society. Granted that there are motions to call for more humane killing of livestock and the punishment of Squealer would have not been tolerated in today's society.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Btw, someone just noticed this...

DAAAAAAAAAMN.

Twist that knife some more, would you, director?

Those kids would be Bakenezumi had they existed in Saki's time.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

How many real-world people have psychic powers? And do we look for reasons to slaughter our children? Are we patterned after ape behavior? Do we have genetic modifications to keep us from killing one another?

I think that it's pretty clear that the human villagers are nothing like modern people, while the queerats are nowhere so dissimilar. The trap that Shinsekai Yori introduces is that we are supposed to think "What would we be like if we had these powers?" when the real question is "Which group describes us?"

How many real-world people look like rats? Do we take the babies of our enemies as spoils of war and enslave them? Are we all born from Queens? You're only looking at the surface. This isn't what makes a person human or not.

Both the humans and the rats represent different aspects of humanity. Neither faction is more human that the other nor closer to us. Kirakim is right. We are both and neither. The viewer is free to identify with neither, either or both. It's entirely up to personal appreciation. There are no absolutes in this story. The humans are not entirely evil and the queerats are not entirely good, and vice-versa. They're simply... humans.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by hero147

While I don't agree with the methods employed for the punishment of squealer, if somebody had to be punished that way, squealer would have been my choice. However, this might be due to the fact that I do have an overwhelming amount of sympathy of what the Saki and her village went through.

I can't see Bakenezumi as human. Sure, their species may have once been human, but regardless, through inducing mutations within their genome, they aren't anymore. They're an entirely different species. The village controlling the Bakenezumi does not seem that much different from today's society where humans have dominion over every other species. All organisms on earth evolved from a single ancestor, yet we don't fret over killing a cow to eat a steak in today's society. Granted that there are motions to call for more humane killing of livestock and the punishment of Squealer would have not been tolerated in today's society.

Regardless of the Queerats being humans or not, it still remains a fact that the humans in SSY have been treating them like shit. Saki and co. were fully aware that the Queerats are highly intelligent beings yet they don't feel guilt at all in killing them. I think the analogy isn't as simple as "humans killing cows for steak" at all.

One of the main problems, as you've said, is that the way humans treat Queerats aren't as different as how we treat livestock in today's society (and I think the Queerats have it worse) when that's not how it's supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Kanon

How many real-world people look like rats? Do we take the babies of our enemies as spoils of war and enslave them? Are we all born from Queens? You're only looking at the surface. This isn't what makes a person human or not.

Both the humans and the rats represent different aspects of humanity. Neither faction is more human that the other nor closer to us. Kirakim is right. We are both and neither. The viewer is free to identify with neither, either or both. It's entirely up to personal appreciation. There are no absolutes in this story. The humans are not entirely evil and the queerats are not entirely good, and vice-versa. They're simply... humans.

I really like your explanation. No side is entirely correct nor entirely wrong which really sums up SSY beautifully.

[Repelsteeltju]

Ok wow that was an interesting read. I might respond to some of the thoughts and ideas brought up here but for now it's on to the next discussion hub from here.

[BBOvenGuy]

A fascinating end to a fascinating series. The original novelist had a lot of things to say, and gave us a lot of things to think about.

The entire world has been reshaped around the fact that a certain percentage of humans gained a power that could potentially wipe out the entire species. Everything in the village society is based on the need to keep that power contained. But the real threats to humanity lurk underneath - arrogance, greed, lust for power and vengeance, hatred and violence. And these things are not dealt with at the end.

Do Saki and Satoru really have reason to hope that the world will be a better place for their child? I didn't see many signs of it. The village's treatment of Squealer was nothing short of barbaric, and they go right back to being "gods" who decide the fates of the queerat colonies. Saki and Satoru figure out where the queerats came from and who they really are, but they don't do anything with that knowledge. Ten years later, there's no sign of anything being different.

And the queerats aren't any better. Sure, you can argue that they're fighting back against their oppressors, but they'll never succeed as long as they maintain the cycle of violence. Armed resistance is ultimately doomed to failure, and only reinforces the resolve of the Cantus users. (I always said the queerats needed a Gandhi and not a Bin Laden.) The whole reason they look like rats instead of humans is because the Cantus users were afraid of being wiped out if Death Feedback prevented them from defending themselves.

The only gripe I had about the final episode was that killing the kid felt too quick and too easy - but then again, they had to have time for everything that came later, so I guess that's okay.

[moredrowsy]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually we are both and neither. The story tells us that some of the human population developed PK and some did not. The ones that did not were turned into the monster rats.

The 4th episode that involved with the false minoshiro indicated that only 0.3% of the population developed PK while 99.7% did not have PK.

So to be fair, the take home message for the last part is that almost 100% of the viewers will either die or become queerats. Statistically, I think it's pretty safe to assume that we are in the queerats' shoes and that pretty much sums up the purpose of the last reveal. The last reveal is just to reverse our psychology. I dunno why people are still arguing we might be the "Saki/Satoru" group when you only have 0.3% (or close to none) to belong with the demigods.

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

[...] what's most striking about that "we are humans" line, to me, is that it shows how bitter Squealer is. Kiroumaru would never have used that line of argument. Kiroumaru is a proud bakenezumi, no matter his DNA. See?

I do think Squealer going with the aggressive "we're humans too" justification a bit peculiar. Granted we never really got to find out what Squealer's really like in private or what he really believes in. But the one thing that is clear is that some of his later statements and actions contradict his earlier ones. This means he either grew out of those ideals or never believed in them in the first place.

It's possible that he placed importance on his being human and felt wronged for what had been done to his ancestors. Then there is also the possibility that if he'd gotten the courts to acknowledge his –and by association his kinds– humanity most of his jailers and jurors would have literally died of shame right then and there and the ones that wouldn't die would be rendered unable to harm any other Bakenezumi, Squealer included of course. Stripped of his subordinates, his messiah and even his clothes (leaving only his dignity); exclaiming that he was in fact human was his final defiant indiscretion and his only remaining weapon.

[...]

So in this episode, when Satoru says "Did you not just want power?" he may be right, or he may be wrong. The real question (and suspect its one that Satoru is too proud to face) is why he wants power.[...]

The answer he gave: "It was all for the sake of my kind." was succinct. But didn't go all that far in to motivation. Due to it's broadness it was even if not a lot more vague than Kiroumaru's exclamation that his own loyalties were to his queen and colony first and foremost.

Maybe, just maybe Squealer was simply tired of all the bullying. It's strikes me that Squealer is a lot like the lowest raking of the naked mole rats that Saki kept. Constantly getting stepped on for being the smallest, for being the least fit, the least dominant. When he was given the role of single literate member of his colony, I image it was because it was perceived to be a waste to make an actual fit one do it because a stronger specimen could have gotten more hunting or gathering done.

Except through sheer knowledge, inventiveness and perseverance he was able to make his colony prosper and rise in the ranks and each time he rose in the ranks he would make those under him stop the bullying and domineering and that felt good. But no matter how much power and knowledge he accumulated there always seemed to be people above him bullying others.

[...]

The kicker, here, though, is the biology of mole rats. Equality? How can you talk about equality and bow to a Queen? [...]

That's sort of the thing. One day he just stopped bowing. Being as vehemently and violently opposed to bullying, as I hope I have framed him to be, that was the only option. The lobotomizing of the queen, like a lot of choices made by characters in Shin Sekai Yori, could be considered the lesser of two evils –no a good even. She was not well and the procedure merely helped and pacified her. Is what he might have wanted to believe but indeed it must have been preceded by hugely contradictory impulses.

[...] That scene where Saki asks Squealer to apologize... I saw that as a tragic failure: two people who, in their hearts, would actually like to apologize to each other find themselves in a position where they find it impossible. Such a sad, sad scene...

That's one way to look at it. Another is that it was a sophisticated way of telling Saki to drop dead at worst and demonstrating the hypocrisy of her request at best. Because again. Mourning the deceased Bakenezumi, requires humanizing them to some extent and that for those who have killed or hope to kill Bakenezumi that is dangerous. Also note that he must of at least known Saki to some extent for her work in the exospecies department if not from their encounters when Saki and Satoru were still children. Yet he acknowledges them only as his captors.

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Armed resistance is ultimately doomed to failure, and only reinforces the resolve of the Cantus users. (I always said the queerats needed a Gandhi and not a Bin Laden.) The whole reason they look like rats instead of humans is because the Cantus users were afraid of being wiped out if Death Feedback prevented them from defending themselves.

Ja, as if Bakenezumi going on a hunger strike would be treated as anything but a curiosity if not sign of rebellion and a cause for extermination. As Squealer put it the Bakenezumi are worse off then slaves. Not in the least because the Cantus users don't consider them to be human but they actually need them or their labor. It's convenient to be sure but people who take offence to killing even to colonies not affiliated with Squealers Robber Fly Colony seem far and between.

PS: Gandhi's brand of non-violence relied on instigating violence and causing social unrest.

Originally Posted by moredrowsy

The 4th episode that involved with the false minoshiro indicated that only 0.3% of the population developed PK while 99.7% did not have PK.

So to be fair, the take home message for the last part is that almost 100% of the viewers will either die or become queerats.

Except the odds are stacked overwhelmingly in favor of dying. And considering that it's very possible that the presumably costly process of altering the genes can't be done too often it'd be a stretch to assume the Bakenezumi where born from more than a few dozen people. So If we're talking odds their slim but (you, or more likely, one of your descendants) becoming a Cantus user is still more likely than becoming a Bakenezumi.

[kuromitsu]

I don't see a point in debating what "we" the viewers would be in the world of this story... given that the entire point is, I think, that the two societies are fundamentally very similar, the difference being that one is oppressed by the other. But morally neither is any better than the other - and the oppressed side would happily switch places and be oppressors themselves.

I mean, people here love to hate the human side (because they kill children, because they do all that creepy stuff, because they oppress the bakenezumi, etc.) and it seems to me that many people downplay the human side of the story, dismissing the experiences of humans as irrelevant since they're evil anyway. But are the bakenezumi any better, with their almost constant wars, conflicts, oppression? (kiiind of familiar...) And is the world Squealer was trying to create any better than the world of the humans? A society built on genocide, slavery and genetic engineering of their own kind? Hmmm, where have we seen this before.......

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by frubram

Even though I HATED Squealer throughout the series for his constant betrayals(but LOVED his cunning), and couldn't wait to see a horrible, HORRIBLE punishment finally befall him, I must admit, that speech he gave at the trial MOVED me. I mean, I actually sympathized with what he said, even agreed to it. It almost felt like the humans, laughing and making fun of him, were the ones that were evil. To see our protagonists go through all of this because of the ideals of one 'man', hating that one 'man', yet still is able to give him a both logical and emotional reason for his actions to make me sympathize with him is simply amazing.

Agreed. I hated Squealer for what he did to Maria and Mamoru, but the mixed feelings of fondness I used to hold for Squealer before that incident returned in this episode. It was a bit sad to see him in such a humbled and vulnerable state, and I'm glad that Saki did the right thing and put him out of his misery. She also deserves props for being compassionate from the moment Squealer's sentence of Eternal Hell was declared... I doubt I'd be that generous to someone responsible for the death of my parents.

Farewell, Squealer. You were somewhat of a bastard, but a charismatic and fascinating enough one that you're hard not to like.

Originally Posted by SQA

Though I can see why the novel should end on a less hopeful note. Satoru now understands the "logic of the world" as it exists. Which means he should understand the final result: 1 PK user or 0 PK users. That is the only final result, all that is undertaken is to prevent that day from coming even sooner. The humans are still willing to shred all aspects of their humanity for one more day's respite.

Hmm. The world of Shinsekai Yori is certainly a dangerous one whose fate lies delicately in the balance, but I don't remember anything to suggest that the human race is destined for extinction.

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Quick capsule review: Nothin' but net.

Wat.

Originally Posted by creb

Though, if isn't doing well financially, I wouldn't be surprised. Anything remotely intelligent does seem to rarely gain traction among Japanese otaku.

As far as I can tell, anime series of 2012 and 2013 have been doing strangely poor in terms of sales compared to previous years. Shows like Natsuiro Kiseki and AKB0048, which in 2009 or 2010 would have given their respective studios enough money to swim in it Uncle Scrooge-style, have been commercial flops. It's weird.

Originally Posted by Kanon

They even included Reiko! (bet you forgot her ).

what's a Reiko

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(By the way, I love reading these interpretations.)

Yeah, Dawnstorm makes great posts.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well if this story is our future we don't know which group we would become. Heck we don't even know if we would get this far because other groups were destroyed even earlier.

Some of us might even become one of those evil emperors that made the world a miserable place to be for hundreds of years. I place my bets on Triple_R for being the emperor in the hand clapping scene; he was the high school Student Council president, so naturally he would use his leadership experience to rise to the top once more! But man, Triple, you sure do become a dick in the future.

[moredrowsy]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Except the odds are stacked overwhelmingly in favor of dying. And considering that it's very possible that the presumably costly process of altering the genes can't be done too often it'd be a stretch to assume the Bakenezumi where born from more than a few dozen people. So If we're talking odds their slim but (you, or more likely, one of your descendants) becoming a Cantus user is still more likely than becoming a Bakenezumi.

The statistics of whether you belong to either groups come first (99.7% vs 0.3%). Then afterwards you can consider the deaths. Even so, in the 4th episode, during the slave empire scenes, the false minoshiro states that the number of PK users had waned to almost non-existence except for a handful (which were the scientist group and 19-ish emperors]). During this time when PK-users waned to non-existence, human population took a steep dive to "2% of Golden Age population." So the oddds of becoming a Cantus users are almost nigh (0.3%). Within that 0.3%, many PK uses also died to almost a handful while the human population stayed in the millions. So using your logic, it is still more likely to belong to a normal human, which will in turn become the queerats. And btw, you can't assume that a lot of humans died due to DNA modification w/o any hints/evidence from the show.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Yeah, Dawnstorm makes great posts.

Agreed and I want to say it because I know I debated with him a few times throughout this series but I always enjoyed doing so.

Actually in general I enjoyed debating & discussing with everyone. I don't want to name names because I am sure I will forget someone important but I had a lot of fun on these boards and enjoyed everyone's posts whether I agreed or disagreed.

Some of us might even become one of those evil emperors that made the world a miserable place to be for hundreds of years. I place my bets on Triple_R for being the emperor in the hand clapping scene; he was the high school Student Council president, so naturally he would use his leadership experience to rise to the top once more! But man, Triple, you sure do become a dick in the future.

I expect I will be a lowly monster rat like Squealer since I spoke out against him so much.

Triple R please don't kill me!

[Lenneth4]

Originally Posted by moredrowsy

The 4th episode that involved with the false minoshiro indicated that only 0.3% of the population developed PK while 99.7% did not have PK.

So to be fair, the take home message for the last part is that almost 100% of the viewers will either die or become queerats. Statistically, I think it's pretty safe to assume that we are in the queerats' shoes and that pretty much sums up the purpose of the last reveal. The last reveal is just to reverse our psychology. I dunno why people are still arguing we might be the "Saki/Satoru" group when you only have 0.3% (or close to none) to belong with the demigods.

I agree but Dude it's normal
The queerats are mostly ugly and little , they don't want to be assimiled to them

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Lenneth4

I agree but Dude it's normal
The queerats are mostly ugly and little , they don't want to be assimiled to them

People aren't arguing and I am not really sure why it matters what group you are in. Whether it is a small chance or not you can be from either group (or neither if you were killed earlier).

The point is BOTH groups represent different factions of humanity. Neither side is the side we should identify with. And neither side is entirely good or bad. It's just not black and white like that.

[Qilin]

I figured they were going to bring up that little quip eventually, and I can't say the solution caught me by surprise. I'm just not particularly fond of the clumsy way made the reveal, and in the final episode no less. But that's a minor matter.

In the end, the humans and the queerats represent two ends of a continuum. One enforces its law by authoritarian rule, using extreme force whenever necessary. The other side is a chaotic free-for-all where warmongering clans kill and invade each other for the sake of dominance. Both sides are a mess if you think about it.

On the side of the humans, much emphasis is placed on enforcing conscious self-control at gunpoint. Here, we have society that actively attempts to dull the more violent elements of human nature, but it is exactly that which dehumanizes its inhabitants. The Cantus here can simultaneously be interpreted as a burden that must be suppressed and as a device for sustaining the current power hierarchy. On the other hand, you have the queerats that embrace those very tendencies that the humans shun. As a result, their societies are fragmented and engaged in a perpetual power struggle, but at the same time, it is that greed that drives them to new heights. It is what allows them to challenge tried paradigms in order to evolve. Both sides are caricatures of the best and worst sides of humanity.

This all leads me to wonder: What exactly was this show trying to say? Similar to Psycho-Pass, this seems again to be an ending where very little was changed in terms of the societal constructs in play. In the end, even Saki, after learning the truth, could only continue to perceive the queerats as beasts as she killed Squealer.

[JKL]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In hindsight, I wish I'd voted a 10 instead of a 9. In watching the ep again and in thinking about it at length, I realize that most of the issues I have are with trying to impose my own implications for a moralistic ending that was never going to happen and would have been out of place with this series.

SSY is a work of art, plain and simple - clearly a labor of love for the staff and a credit to everyone involved.

Shouldn't that be an 8 going to a 9? You don't ace a test by getting 1 question wrong.