One Piece - Chapter 787 [manga]

[Casshern]

My theory on the birdcage is that maybe the cage can't be broken without an attack of the same magnitude, like a haki imbued meteor or something. So destroying the cage might result in killing everyone anyway. Also, Dofla cast the cage some time ago, so that would give his haki and stamina time to recover, just like Luffy is doing now. Maybe the cage doesn't need much energy at all to maintain after it's been cast.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

seriously, it didn't

it's funny how you reference that Mingo is wobbly, but ignore that Luffy can barely move...

I can imagine you watching a boxing match where one guy gets knocked out and you proclaim him to be the winner because he got more hits in

^Boxing match
You know there wasn't a single move that crippled or KO luffy before or during gear 4. If there was name one. Luffy's present situation was self inflicted by his gear 4. Funny that the only time Daflamingo has a chance to kill luffy, is when it is self inflicted.

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Listen. How can you not see this. Luffy's attacks did not affect Doflamingo. Gear 2nd was too weak, Gear 3rd was too slow. He got in a couple of good hits on Doflamingo, but they had no effect, because they were too weak to hurt him. Doflamingo can bee seen with crossed arms and smiling directly after being sent flying by Luffy, because he doesn't care. The only hit pre Gear 4th, that had an effect, was the Red Hawk, which only hit because Law helped Luffy set it up. So yes, Doflamingo did have the advantage over Luffy. Luffy did not have the means to beat Doflamingo without Gear 4th. While in Gear 4th, he gave him a good fight. In fact, he dominated him, but he wasn't able to defeat his opponent in the time he was able to hold up Gear 4th. And the mode hurt him more than it did his opponent. Now, he is dependant on the help of Sabo and the colosseum fighters to protect him from Doflamingo. Why? Because he lost the fight and would be killed if it weren't for the support he's receiving.

This fight is over and Doflamingo won. Luffy will win the battle for Dressrosa (with help), but he lost the (1 on 1) fight.

Did any of Daflamingo's attack have any effect on luffy?
Was there any attacks strong enough to hurt luffy or KO him? If there is then why didn't Daflamingo use it on him? Luffy damage Daflamingo in gear 4 and kicked his ass. That's why he is barely holding himself together. Kinda funny how both of you talk like Daflamingo is strong by saying none of Luffy's move where strong enough but the same could be said for Daflamingo. Luffy dominated in gear 4.Will you guys acknowledge and answer any of these questions?

[ZGoten]

I already responded to that question in last week's chapter thread. I'm not going to bother anymore, your posts anger me.

I hope this battle will be over soon, I want to see what happened to Sanji.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

^Boxing match
You know there wasn't a single move that crippled or KO luffy before or during gear 4. If there was name one. Luffy's present situation was self inflicted by his gear 4. Funny that the only time Daflamingo has a chance to kill luffy, is when it is self inflicted.

As simple as it gets: fight begins with 2 people standing - fight ends with 1 person standing. that is the winner.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

^Boxing match
You know there wasn't a single move that crippled or KO luffy before or during gear 4. If there was name one. Luffy's present situation was self inflicted by his gear 4. Funny that the only time Daflamingo has a chance to kill luffy, is when it is self inflicted.



Did any of Daflamingo's attack have any effect on luffy?
Was there any attacks strong enough to hurt luffy or KO him? If there is then why didn't Daflamingo use it on him? Luffy damage Daflamingo in gear 4 and kicked his ass. That's why he is barely holding himself together. Kinda funny how both of you talk like Daflamingo is strong by saying none of Luffy's move where strong enough but the same could be said for Daflamingo. Luffy dominated in gear 4.Will you guys acknowledge and answer any of these questions?

Just to quote myself from another thread:

Originally Posted by ri0

May it be through means of power, tactical skill, bad decision making on one side or whatever reason, that could let you win a fight... Right now (!), one of them is standing and smiling, ready to kill the other, while the latter needs to be carried around, cause he was unable to walk and other people are helping him right now. Isn´t it obvious, who won?

[Ravagerblade]

*Sigh* How about it isn't over till the fat lady sings.
Wait until after the fight is over to start dissecting the fight, with no bias.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

*Sigh* How about it isn't over till the fat lady sings.
Wait until after the fight is over to start dissecting the fight, with no bias.

If you check out the current chapter of One Piece, Luffy is piggy-back riding on a stranger's back because he can't move. that fight is over guys...

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

If you check out the current chapter of One Piece, Luffy is piggy-back riding on a stranger's back because he can't move. that fight is over guys...

No, that's your opinion, Has the fight reached an absolute conclusion or not? I'd say it's the end of Round 1 figuratively.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I already responded to that question in last week's chapter thread. I'm not going to bother anymore, your posts anger me.

I hope this battle will be over soon, I want to see what happened to Sanji.

Thats fine if your angry
Doesn't bother me, because this is just what I believe. I understand your frustration because I am not the only person you have battled with over this debate. Sometimes these debates end up circling the wagon. But my opinion on this debate won't change because your angry. Second you responded to my post. You didn't have too.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

As simple as it gets: fight begins with 2 people standing - fight ends with 1 person standing. that is the winner.

Originally Posted by ri0

Just to quote myself from another thread:

As simple as it gets
Then you guys won't mind that Luffy was stronger then croc in Alabastia arc(opinion croc was stronger). In thriller Bark Luffy stronger then moria(Opinion moria was stronger). Garp vs luffy at the execution plat form. (Opinion garp was stronger ).The list goes on, you want to get complex or simple fine but we all know what went down in those fights. I guess Luffy was the better fighter and the stronger one right? If we go by your simplicity.

Street Ball
Rio you know Luffy is still consious right? If you stand by your quote then gatz carrying Luffy is irrelevant because it doesn't matter how it goes down just has long has he wins right?

Final Verdict
Luffy fought with daflamingo pound for pound. There was not a single moment Daflamingo beat or swept him aside like law or Sanji. His gear 4 put him above Daflamingo in the fight because he was kicking ass. If Ten minute waiting period is your best argument that's not much. In four minutes Luffy will be able to finish him.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Alright, I've analyzed the fight prior to Gear 4, and here's what happens:

Chapter 782
Conqueror's Haki clash with neither gaining the advantage.

Luffy manages to land a kick to the stomach, punch to the face, and kick to the jaw.

Doflamingo overpowers Luffy's guard with a hamstring kick sending him flying to rubble where he then gets caught in Trebol's slime.


Chapter 783
Luffy lands a hawk-whip on Doflamingo's arms.

Luffy lands a spring on Doflamingo's chest, sending him flying. But he recovers rather easily and is flying in the air with his arms crossed saying that Luffy's attacks lack power.

Doflamingo kicks Luffy in the back and sends him flying.

Haki clash with neither gaining the advantage.

Doflamingo dodges Grizzly Knuckle and then kicks Luffy to the ground.

-----

Now, while Luffy doesn't pack enough firepower to put Doflamingo down, Doflamingo doesn't exactly dish out big damage either. There's never a point where Luffy's getting dominated.

If the fight were to have continued without Luffy resorting to Gear 4, it appears as though Luffy would lose in the end. But Doflamingo definitely wouldn't have an easy time knocking out/killing him. There's nothing even remotely suggesting that.

The real subject of debate here is could Luffy have finished off Doflamingo if he used his strongest attack within Gear 4's time limit the first time. Ultimately, it's Gear 4's time limit that's the decisive factor here. If Doflamingo can hold out, he wins. If not, Luffy wins.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

No, that's your opinion, Has the fight reached an absolute conclusion or not? I'd say it's the end of Round 1 figuratively.

you're treading on a slippery slope. How long can the break be until it matters to you? a day? a year? what if Luffy and Doflamingo went their separate ways right now and didn't meet again until 5 years from now? Would that still be the same fight to you? For me, that would be a second fight. Luffy is being protected until he can regain his stamina. That's a new fight. And it's unfair to Mingo since he's still expending energy, while Luffy is recovering his own.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Now, while Luffy doesn't pack enough firepower to put Doflamingo down, Doflamingo doesn't exactly dish out big damage either. There's never a point where Luffy's getting dominated.

I agree that Mingo wasn't dominating Luffy. Nobody on these threads has ever said that (I think. I know I haven't at least), but you and a couple others seem to keep reading it for some reason.

If the fight were to have continued without Luffy resorting to Gear 4, it appears as though Luffy would lose in the end. But Doflamingo definitely wouldn't have an easy time knocking out/killing him. There's nothing even remotely suggesting that.

agreed. we don't know how much stamina/haki the Birdcage takes out of him either.

The real subject of debate here is could Luffy have finished off Doflamingo if he used his strongest attack within Gear 4's time limit the first time.

most likely. Mingo will eventually lose because the plot will demand it. For whatever reason though, Oda has made him the stronger of the two so far.

but the real question for me regarding Luffy's foreshadowed super-move, is why he didn't use it in the first place. Could the effects be even worse than the ones he's experiencing after Gear 4?

Ultimately, it's Gear 4's time limit that's the decisive factor here. If Doflamingo can hold out, he wins. If not, Luffy wins.

Totally agree. in the fight we just saw Mingo's defense > Luffy's offense.

[Ravagerblade]

Running away to regain some *energy* is a viable tactic, especially if your opponent is being dumb and keeps expending his.

I'd rather consider it being the same fight within hour or so. A Day would seem ridiculous in this case. At the same time it goes case by case.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Running away to regain some *energy* is a viable tactic, especially if your opponent is being dumb and keeps expending his.

I can't grant you that one. Luffy isn't running away. He's being carried away. That's a big difference in my book.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I can't grant you that one. Luffy isn't running away. He's being carried away. That's a big difference in my book.

Semantics. Besides being carried away means not spending the energy to that action.

Besides, Luffy probably learned his lesson from last time he was a sitting duck for a bit. Ace got killed for it.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I agree that Mingo wasn't dominating Luffy. Nobody on these threads has ever said that (I think. I know I haven't at least), but you and a couple others seem to keep reading it for some reason.

ZGoten said as much in the 786 thread.

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I knew I was right. Doflamingo is just too much for Luffy to handle by himself.

Link #8

Originally Posted by ZGoten

because, like I said, he was playing with Luffy up until Gear 4th was activated.

Link #102

This is simply wrong.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but the real question for me regarding Luffy's foreshadowed super-move, is why he didn't use it in the first place. Could the effects be even worse than the ones he's experiencing after Gear 4?

Maybe. Or it could be the case where Oda wanted to make the fight more dramatic/suspenseful.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Totally agree. in the fight we just saw Mingo's defense > Luffy's offense.

Not really. Luffy's offense completely penetrated Doffy's defense. Doffy was just resilient enough to hold out for the time limit, otherwise he would be KO'd by now.

It's like saying BB's defense was greater than WB's offense in the war. The guy was writhing in pain from just a bisento slash and a quake to the face by a critically injured/weakened WB. Were it not for all the wounds WB got, BB would be a dead man.

[ZGoten]

No, what I said was not wrong. Doflamingo was playing with Luffy prior to Gear 4th, which is why he only activated his awakened abilities, when he was pushed to do so. He wanted to see Luffy struggle to win this match in time. You yourself mentioned the panel where Doflamingo crosses his arms and laughs at Luffy's weak attacks. He's not even taking the fight seriously at that point.

Honestly, I can't believe we're still debating this. It's ridiculous and ridiculously obvious.

1. Luffy can't beat Doflamingo without Gear 4th.
2. Luffy is not strong enough to maintain Gear 4th for more than a couple of minutes.
3. These couple of minutes are not enough to defeat Doflamingo and render Luffy completely defenseless afterwards.
4. Ergo, Luffy is not strong enough to defeat Doflamingo.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

No, what I said was not wrong. Doflamingo was playing with Luffy prior to Gear 4th, which is why he only activated his awakened abilities, when he was pushed to do so. He wanted to see Luffy struggle to win this match in time. You yourself mentioned the panel where Doflamingo crosses his arms and laughs at Luffy's weak attacks. He's not even taking the fight seriously at that point.

Playing implies vast superiority, something Dofla did not show over Luffy. My analysis clearly shows that. And have you ever heard of characters that are full of themselves? Dofla acted brave in front of Aokiji, even though the latter could have wasted him if he wanted to. He's an arrogant prick - what do you expect?

Show me where Dofla overwhelms Luffy pre Gear 4.

[ZGoten]

Playing may imply vast superiority to you, but it doesn't to me and it certainly doesn't necessitate it.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Playing may imply vast superiority to you, but it doesn't to me and it certainly doesn't necessitate it.

Then you're using the word incorrectly, I'm afraid.

Doflamingo talks a lot. Have you ever heard of the expression "talk is cheap"? He's calling Luffy out for being weak, and yet he's not having an easy time dealing with him.

You still haven't shown me where Dofla overwhelms Luffy pre Gear 4.

[ZGoten]

You're just unnecessarily projecting meaning onto words. It's not me using them incorrectly. Also, I can't show you where Doflamingo overwhems Luffy, because him playing with his foe is exactly why he doesn't overwhelm him! And overwhelming somebody does not imply vast superiority either, just in case you are wondering.