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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Total Series Rating
Perfect 10 17 16.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 38 37.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 22.55%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 16.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.94%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.96%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.96%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-09-14, 11:27   Link #81
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
Please enlighten me and elaborate your points more. I cannot find any relevant point in your review (or basically, your opinion) that you have written in your previous post.

As far as I am into the series until this moment, I am not seeing any contradictions with the genre itself. It is just the personal preference of the novel author to not stick with just only one genre in his stories as far as he do not change the entire theme of the series.

And as I have mentioned, Nise is made just to introduce more new characters which they are very important to the plot development as the series goes deep into its core plot in the next entries of the series. Also, 4-6 episodes is relatively fine for any light novel adaptation which has 250-400 page counts, any lower than that would destroy the story essence. Every thing in the series you have seen so far is interconnected and there is no such thing as filler plot besides some of the perversed fanservice scenes.
The move from Bake to Nise changed it from a story-driven fantasy/mystery series to a mostly episodic conversational series. It shouldn't take half a sequel's episode count to cover a story arc when its prequel had five of them and were also coherent. This isn't the author's personal preference; it's lazy writing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
And saying it's harsh to bash the series because of Nise's less developed plot is ironic when the series is story-driven.
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Old 2013-09-14, 11:51   Link #82
shinyaNakagawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
The move from Bake to Nise changed it from a story-driven fantasy/mystery series to a mostly episodic conversational series. It shouldn't take half a sequel's episode count to cover a story arc when its prequel had five of them and were also coherent. This isn't the author's personal preference; it's lazy writing.
Lazy writing... oh god.
You are slipping away from the fact that the author elaborates most of the stuff in his novels in the most detailed way possible.
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Old 2013-09-14, 11:54   Link #83
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
Lazy writing... oh god.
You are slipping away from the fact that the author elaborates most of the stuff in his novels in the most detailed way possible.
And apparently Bake was the better adaptation for covering more details per story and progressing more story per episode.
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Old 2013-09-14, 12:11   Link #84
redgrnbluylw
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
And apparently Bake was the better adaptation for covering more details per story and progressing more story per episode.
....I thought you were talking about the writing?
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Old 2013-09-14, 12:22   Link #85
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by redgrnbluylw View Post
....I thought you were talking about the writing?
If Nisio wrote that much detail into everything then it only showed in Bake while Nise was lost in adaptation. That or Nise's anime is also faithful to its light novel and the source material is a lot of elaboration yet still barely progresses a story-driven series.
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Old 2013-09-14, 12:43   Link #86
shinyaNakagawa
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
And apparently Bake was the better adaptation for covering more details per story and progressing more story per episode.
Bake is the stage where the most influential characters were being introduced and developed as the stories goes on.

Nise is the stage where some new characters were being introduced for latter plot developments in next entries/season and Nise itself is made for the sisters, thus to present their behavior and attitudes as well as their relation with apparition/oddities phenomenons. There is definitely no fillers written or adapted. The nonsensical talks/conversation (as you said so but not me myself) is to show the psychology of the characters and this is a very important as their psychology will take effect as the story progresses.

Adaptation wise, Nise is a fine adaptation although it does got some flaws here and there but that will be covered later. The story is adapted accordingly to its original sources I presume.
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Old 2013-09-14, 13:06   Link #87
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
Bake is the stage where the most influential characters were being introduced and developed as the stories goes on.

Nise is the stage where some new characters were being introduced for latter plot developments in next entries/season and Nise itself is made for the sisters, thus to present their behavior and attitudes as well as their relation with apparition/oddities phenomenons. There is definitely no fillers written or adapted. The nonsensical talks/conversation (as you said so but not me myself) is to show the psychology of the characters and this is a very important as their psychology will take effect as the story progresses.

Adaptation wise, Nise is a fine adaptation although it does got some flaws here and there but that will be covered later. The story is adapted accordingly to its original sources I presume.
So Nise is made for the sister's but focuses on others characters anyway to build up for its next installment while Nise doesn't cover as much story as Bake did in the meantime. Foreshadowing shouldn't be at odds with story development. The only silver lining here is how Monogatari (3rd season) should be considering the 2nd season's compromises.
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Old 2013-09-14, 13:23   Link #88
shinyaNakagawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
So Nise is made for the sister's but focuses on others characters anyway to build up for its next installment while Nise doesn't cover as much story as Bake did in the meantime. Foreshadowing shouldn't be at odds with story development. The only silver lining here is how Monogatari (3rd season) should be considering the 2nd season's compromises.
I think you are aware that Nise is a part of 1st season, right?
And for the bolded part, the answer is a 'Yes'. The Second Season will continue on where Nise left off and took the events that happened in Bake and Nise as the basis.
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Old 2013-09-14, 13:28   Link #89
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
I think you are aware that Nise is a part of 1st season, right?
And still two separate shows so I'll judge them as such.

Though you do realize I was aware of the show being about Koyomi's sisters in my review right.
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Last edited by Akito Kinomoto; 2013-09-14 at 13:50.
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Old 2013-09-14, 14:12   Link #90
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
The move from Bake to Nise changed it from a story-driven fantasy/mystery series to a mostly episodic conversational series. It shouldn't take half a sequel's episode count to cover a story arc when its prequel had five of them and were also coherent. This isn't the author's personal preference; it's lazy writing.
Wait wait wait.

First of all, anime ≠ light novels. The anime is an adaptation of the light novels where they try to cut the most out of the original books while still trying to make sense.

(Bake actually included even anime original scenes!)

The main difference between Bake and the other books is that Bake was comprised of 5 short introductive stories, which were about 150 pages long (with Tsubasa Cat being longer). After Bake each story got a whole 300 pages long book for itself, so ideally even in the anime the arcs must get more episodes. I suppose the episodes an arc gets is based on the number of conversations between different characters. You can cut pretty easily a long dialogue (for example, at the beginning of Nadeko Snake there were 40 pages of conversation between Kanbaru and Araragi), but you can't cut many small interactions, which is (probably) why Karen Bee got so many episodes and a pace comparatively slower.

Another thing to mind is what they cut from the anime, which is mostly Araragi's thoughts. As this is a first person narration, his thoughts are obviously very important for the comprehension of the story. All the more in Nise when they contained the punchline of many gags. For example, when Araragi visits Nadeko, all the humor was about how Araragi insisted in seeing her as a child despite Nadeko's questionable behaviour. This was "lost in adaptation".

While seeing Nise I tried to reread the original novels. Frankly I was disappointed, so now I avoid rereading the novels anymore.

I wouldn't say Monogatari is really story-driven. Of course, Bake is the love story between Araragi and Senjougahara, but as a whole there are mostly arcs about individual characters. There kind of is an overarching plot, but it shouldn't be the first thing you focus on. Monogatari is still a mystery at heart though.
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Old 2013-09-14, 14:19   Link #91
shinyaNakagawa
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
And still two separate shows so I'll judge them as such.

Though you do realize I was aware of the show being about Koyomi's sisters in my review right.
No. You were just talking nonsense and strongly bias to your own point of view.
From what you have written in your 'review', I would say that you are not trying to understand the whole concept of the series itself, rather you just blatantly trying to compare the actual fact of the series to your own expectation for the series.

I said so because I read the novels myself (though not Bake and Nise, I started with Kizu and jump straight to the Second Season and 3rd season series) and I find that your 'review' is not constructive at all.
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Old 2013-09-14, 14:42   Link #92
Akito Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
The main difference between Bake and the other books is that Bake was comprised of 5 short introductive stories, which were about 150 pages long (with Tsubasa Cat being longer). After Bake each story got a whole 300 pages long book for itself, so ideally even in the anime the arcs must get more episodes. I suppose the episodes an arc gets is based on the number of conversations between different characters. You can cut pretty easily a long dialogue (for example, at the beginning of Nadeko Snake there were 40 pages of conversation between Kanbaru and Araragi), but you can't cut many small interactions, which is (probably) why Karen Bee got so many episodes and a pace comparatively slower.

Another thing to mind is what they cut from the anime, which is mostly Araragi's thoughts. As this is a first person narration, his thoughts are obviously very important for the comprehension of the story. All the more in Nise when they contained the punchline of many gags. For example, when Araragi visits Nadeko, all the humor was about how Araragi insisted in seeing her as a child despite Nadeko's questionable behaviour. This was "lost in adaptation".

While seeing Nise I tried to reread the original novels. Frankly I was disappointed, so now I avoid rereading the novels anymore.

I wouldn't say Monogatari is really story-driven. Of course, Bake is the love story between Araragi and Senjougahara, but as a whole there are mostly arcs about individual characters. There kind of is an overarching plot, but it shouldn't be the first thing you focus on. Monogatari is still a mystery at heart though.
Monogatari's a mystery at heart but Nise is much less the mystery Bake was. If it's about the writing (light novels) itself, then my point about focusing on the other characters at Karen and Tsukihi's expense still stands because now it's like Nisio was padding out the story because two characters alone wouldn't carry enough material for another book. In that sense Nise's a good adaptation but its source was dragged from the start.
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Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
No. You were just talking nonsense and strongly bias to your own point of view.
From what you have written in your 'review', I would say that you are not trying to understand the whole concept of the series itself, rather you just blatantly trying to compare the actual fact of the series to your own expectation for the series.

I said so because I read the novels myself (though not Bake and Nise, I started with Kizu and jump straight to the Second Season and 3rd season series) and I find that your 'review' is not constructive at all.
I understand the irony behind Karen and Tsukihi's story arcs with a show named Nise (fake) but they themselves were compromised because the show focused on them as much as it did on Bake's heroine's despite Nise being made for Koyomi's sisters. As for the light novels, I focus on what I watch and not what it's based on; if Nise's a part of Bake, it makes sense to have the same expectations for both. And for whatever amount of detail Nisio put into Nise it all comes across as stretching out two character arcs to be as long as five. Set-up for the next installment or not, Nise's still bad.
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Old 2013-09-14, 15:00   Link #93
shinyaNakagawa
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
In that sense Nise's a good adaptation but its source was dragged from the start.
I see. It can't be helped then. Whether you are able or not to cope with this such premise, I suggest to you to not expect the next one to be normal paced stories. They are even worse than Nise in term of dragged 'plot'.
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Old 2013-09-16, 05:20   Link #94
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
Monogatari's a mystery at heart but Nise is much less the mystery Bake was.
I don't think so. First of all, let's say that mystery in Monogatari is a bit different from traditional mystery, in that there is no corpse and no detective. Mystery here is meant to be about plot twists with a reason behind, often based on the psychology of the characters. The other element of mystery is based on presenting details which will be explained only later, and for this reason the story is often not told in a chronological order. Each story features its own form of mystery, but this is the gist.

In Karen Bee the mystery is at first the reason why Araragi has been kidnapped by Senjougahara, which is progressively explained in a flashback where we see how he has spent his day, and where each encounter with a different girl tend to hint at Kaiki. When the story goes back to the present, then we have the case of the Fire Bee, which is more typical Monogatari fare. Even the first part though is told as a mystery through brilliant non-linear storytelling.

Anyway, I can see why you have problems with the first part. It works in a book and it would work as a movie (there are many movie which starts with the end and then tells the story as a flashback), but I don't think it works well as an episodic TV series. Coupled with the fact that the jokes were denaturated, it was easy on the eyes but it didn't make a lot of sense and was not even funny, unlike the original novels. The problem though is more in the medium, not in the story itself.
Quote:
If it's about the writing (light novels) itself, then my point about focusing on the other characters at Karen and Tsukihi's expense still stands because now it's like Nisio was padding out the story because two characters alone wouldn't carry enough material for another book. In that sense Nise's a good adaptation but its source was dragged from the start.
Tsukihi Phoenix was indeed dragged, though you can't see it because they cut roughly 70% of the book (did you know that Karen Bee and Tsukihi Phoenix are long the same in the books?).

My supposition is that Nise was a turning point for Monogatari. Nisio planned all the whole first season, but obviously you don't know if your books will ever be successful, so possibly he first predicted Nise to be the last book chronologically (Tsukihi Phoenix at the time was indeed announced to be the last book, with Neko Kuro as an extra possibly), and then when he saw Monogatari was economically viable he expanded the story. In this regard, it is not weird for Karen Bee to include all the cast, and it is not even weird that they were more extreme than ever, as this was the last we were going to see of them.
Quote:
As for the light novels, I focus on what I watch and not what it's based on; if Nise's a part of Bake, it makes sense to have the same expectations for both.
You are free to expect what you want, but don't criticize Nisio based on the anime, because he just wrote the novels. The man has his faults, but he can't be blamed for what he didn't do.
Quote:
And for whatever amount of detail Nisio put into Nise it all comes across as stretching out two character arcs to be as long as five.
It is not Nisio the one who decided how many episodes the arc was going to get. And anyway the arcs are longer after Bake; the manga Bakuman explains how this works.
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Old 2013-09-16, 20:06   Link #95
Akito Kinomoto
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Maybe Nisio's not at fault for how Nise's anime turned out but it's still a storytelling problem for an anime-only watcher. And I was only talking about Nise's anime until someone else alluded Nisio which eventually led to my acknowledgment of this anime being an adaptation which I initially avoided.
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Old 2013-09-16, 20:52   Link #96
shinyaNakagawa
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Okay. I take the blame for my attitude here which is trying to convince you something but turned out it didn't work at all. Hell, I am not good at explaining stuff to people.

1. Given that Nise is probably the worst of the series for the draggy plot, it is still relevant to the story.
You mentioned those or some conversations in Nise are pointless. You are wrong here onward.
Those conversation was intended to show the nature of characters involved and how they tackled their opponent with those heavy dialogues. Those conversations also, as mentioned by Shikijin, are to show the characters' psychology. Each of them. None of the characters in this series are pointless, they are interconnected to each of the other and they are also the cause of the events related to them and to their surrounding.

2. Karen and Tsukihi are not the only subject matter to the word "Nise" in this arc. You seem to be forgetting the most important aspect/subject related to the word "falsehood" itself.
That is why here I keep telling you that you are still not getting the gist of the concept behind the story and the title used.

3. I myself trying to avoid novel-related stuff, but it is hard to do the explaining stuff without referring to the original sources itself as the anime is too condensed (yeah, they it's true).

4. Another thing, if you missed the colored frames (those flashed cuts), just try to read them all.
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Old 2013-09-16, 22:25   Link #97
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
2. Karen and Tsukihi are not the only subject matter to the word "Nise" in this arc. You seem to be forgetting the most important aspect/subject related to the word "falsehood" itself.
That is why here I keep telling you that you are still not getting the gist of the concept behind the story and the title used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
I understand the irony behind Karen and Tsukihi's story arcs with a show named Nise (fake)
And,
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
You mentioned those or some conversations in Nise are pointless. You are wrong here onward.
Those conversation was intended to show the nature of characters involved and how they tackled their opponent with those heavy dialogues. Those conversations also, as mentioned by Shikijin, are to show the characters' psychology. Each of them. None of the characters in this series are pointless, they are interconnected to each of the other and they are also the cause of the events related to them and to their surrounding.
I didn't call the characters pointless. I said most of Nise's conversations were pointless and to elaborate they were pointless in regards to its two story arcs. Development for a story's next part should not interfere with its current one.
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Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa View Post
4. Another thing, if you missed the colored frames (those flashed cuts), just try to read them all.
Bake and Nise aren't hard to understand; the latter was hard to adapt.
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