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Old 2014-09-20, 16:46   Link #5021
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirakura View Post
Yeah, but we know that's a spell. We don't know what Ilya means when she sings cos it's in Shirou POV. We're not in Ilya's head so she could be hating on Sakura and she could not. There're reasons why she could hate on Sakura and there are reasons why she shouldn't. None of you are going to be right when we don't know what Ilya's thinking....
Sure, she could be, but that particular song is used as Ilya's song throughout the whole VN. It sounds ridiculous to me that Nasu would have picked it to say "she's making a dig at Sakura", rather than for reasons related to Ilya.

I'm not saying Ilya doesn't have issues with Sakura in HF. I know she does, because she outright states that she does. I just think it's ludicrous to claim that she hates Sakura so much that she starts making subtle digs about how dangerous she is when singing a Nursery Rhyme....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I'm not saying she's hating Sakura I'm saying that could have been her observation for the whole event. The fact she knows Sakura will lead him to his death (the full ending that does so). Notice how she's the one that saves him in the end?
Sure, Ilya is well aware of the danger Sakura poses, and does at some point say something along the lines of "I can't like you because of what you are". But, to claim that that particular song (which is used as Ilya's theme song throughout the VN) is meant to be a subtle dig at Sakura as opposed to just her singing a Nursery Rhyme she's fond of is a ridiculous leap of logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That said... seriously? Has this argument about whether a song has some deep-seated meaning really gone on for almost an entire page now? You aren't even saying anything new, and there's nothing to substantiate either claim enough to actually convince the other side.
Well, it's continuing because I cannot honestly believe that he seriously thinks that the song that is used as Ilya's theme song throughout the VN is there because of some really subtle anti-Sakura dig that absolutely no-one but Nasu would ever notice....

His Sakura-hating is honestly ridiculous. He's now got to the point where he's actually projecting it on to characters in the VN and, even, onto Nasu himself. I wouldn't be surprised to hear him arguing that Shirou actually secretly hates Sakura and just thinks she's good in bed or something next....
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Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2014-09-22 at 08:39.
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Old 2014-09-20, 16:56   Link #5022
mirakura
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Trololol. No point arguing about it if he just hates her for the sake of it, therefore starting this :P
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Old 2014-09-22, 07:56   Link #5023
phishmeister68
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Originally Posted by Lorhand View Post
You can make a blog on blogspot/wordpress/whatever and then post the link on the game discussion forums too, you know? Seorin didn't exactly do what you intend to do, but it's similar.

Offtopic: Also, I find people who make fun of a common Japanese idiom no longer amusing. Rin says that line too and many people before Shirou did too, so what?

And while I'm at it (questions about the game usually belong in the Q&A thread), Gae Bolg's reversed-cause-and-effect curse can be avoided with a high Luck parameter or by simply getting out of range when you notice his unique stance when he intends to use it. The Gae Bolg attack he used against Archer is a different attack.
Would consider blogspot. Anyway, I wanna respond to some of the things you've said. I'll make a post here so you can see, but I'll repost it in the game discussion, so we won't be posting here again about game discussion.

That Shirou meme, if you call it a Japanese idiom. I've only heard that from Fate/stay night. I've never heard something similar from other anime/mangas from a time when you can call me an otaku.

Also, Saber only survive Gae Bolg, but she didn't avoid getting hurt. After that attack, you would just feel fortunate Saber is blessed with good fortune.

Shirou is partnering with Rin, so you have to take Archer into account, how will Archer counter against it?

And the in game discussion about Lancer never talked about avoiding Gae Bolg by getting out of range, so I have to assume that's not possible. Have to get with the flow of the game.

Anyway, besides the flow of the game, even I don't think running to get out of range would work anyway. It just wouldn't work against the cause and effect curse. Plus, it's hard to be out of Lancer's range.

Then you have to ask, how fast can Lancer do his Gae Bolg. I have to say pretty fast, being Gae Bolg is anti-personnel.
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Old 2014-09-22, 08:39   Link #5024
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirakura View Post
1) Saber recognises Ilya. She just thought that Iri's daughter would've matured by then. And yes, Ilya also recognises Saber. She knows who her father's servant was and she even says it :3
Ilya might recognise Saber, but she doesn't know Saber. Kiritsugu treated Saber as a tool, there's no reason to expect he'd have introduced her to Ilya. And, Ilya would not know of her relationship with Iri because that happened after they went to Fuyuki, mostly.

As for Saber recognising Ilya, Nasu stated outright that Saber did not know that Ilya was Kiritsugu's daughter. She did recognise the appearance, most likely, but she assumed it was just another Einsbern homunculus.

Quote:
2) I didn't say she hated Sakura...I think. Theres reasons why she wouldn't like her, of course that only applies to HF route. And there's reasons why she would like her. Post Fate, the things that happened in HF that would make Ilya dislike Sakura, didn't happen. And Sakura has pretty good chemistry with everyone, so what's stopping them from being friends?
Ilya doesn't hate Sakura, but in HF she does have issues with her because of all the Grail stuff. It's not dislike, as such, but rather incompatibility. If Ilya could have survived HF, I'm sure she'd have got on just fine with Sakura.
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Old 2014-09-22, 08:40   Link #5025
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
Would consider blogspot. Anyway, I wanna respond to some of the things you've said. I'll make a post here so you can see, but I'll repost it in the game discussion, so we won't be posting here again about game discussion.

That Shirou meme, if you call it a Japanese idiom. I've only heard that from Fate/stay night. I've never heard something similar from other anime/mangas from a time when you can call me an otaku.

Also, Saber only survive Gae Bolg, but she didn't avoid getting hurt. After that attack, you would just feel fortunate Saber is blessed with good fortune.

Shirou is partnering with Rin, so you have to take Archer into account, how will Archer counter against it?

And the in game discussion about Lancer never talked about avoiding Gae Bolg by getting out of range, so I have to assume that's not possible. Have to get with the flow of the game.

Anyway, besides the flow of the game, even I don't think running to get out of range would work anyway. It just wouldn't work against the cause and effect curse. Plus, it's hard to be out of Lancer's range.

Then you have to ask, how fast can Lancer do his Gae Bolg. I have to say pretty fast, being Gae Bolg is anti-personnel.


In the Fate route Shirou said "People die if they are killed, that is how it is supposed to be" (though in the game he never said that out loud, but just thought about it instead) after giving Avalon back to Saber. He was merely commenting on the fact that he only survived many fatal wounds due to Avalon and would not be saved by it again, due to not having given it back to its original owner.

In the UBW route Rin said the same to Shirou after he lost Saber due to Caster. She wants to make him give up on the HGW by remembering Shirou that he no longer has the protection of a servant, while, without noticing it herself, trying to convey to him that she is unable to "revive" him again as she did in the prologue.

In the normal HF ending Sakura says the line again to deal with the fact that Shirou really is dead and will not miraclously come back to life.


And yes, it is cultural thing that non-japanese will most likely not understand. Just think of it as something like a phrase by a greek philosoph, like Socratese's "I know that I know nothing".
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Old 2014-09-22, 09:11   Link #5026
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
In the Fate route Shirou said "People die if they are killed, that is how it is supposed to be" (though in the game he never said that out loud, but just thought about it instead) after giving Avalon back to Saber. He was merely commenting on the fact that he only survived many fatal wounds due to Avalon and would not be saved by it again, due to not having given it back to its original owner.

In the UBW route Rin said the same to Shirou after he lost Saber due to Caster. She wants to make him give up on the HGW by remembering Shirou that he no longer has the protection of a servant, while, without noticing it herself, trying to convey to him that she is unable to "revive" him again as she did in the prologue.

In the normal HF ending Sakura says the line again to deal with the fact that Shirou really is dead and will not miraclously come back to life.


And yes, it is cultural thing that non-japanese will most likely not understand. Just think of it as something like a phrase by a greek philosoph, like Socratese's "I know that I know nothing".
I don't think it's so much as "Japanese idiom" as a sensible statement that has been poorly translated (I suspect that the genuine meaning is more like "people should die when they are killed", which is something I could see being said in English in such a situation). It's much like the use of the word "Superhero" to describe MoS Shirou, whose attitude is about as far from a Superhero as you can get.
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Old 2014-09-22, 10:08   Link #5027
mirakura
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Ilya might recognise Saber, but she doesn't know Saber. Kiritsugu treated Saber as a tool, there's no reason to expect he'd have introduced her to Ilya. And, Ilya would not know of her relationship with Iri because that happened after they went to Fuyuki, mostly.

As for Saber recognising Ilya, Nasu stated outright that Saber did not know that Ilya was Kiritsugu's daughter. She did recognise the appearance, most likely, but she assumed it was just another Einsbern homunculus.



Ilya doesn't hate Sakura, but in HF she does have issues with her because of all the Grail stuff. It's not dislike, as such, but rather incompatibility. If Ilya could have survived HF, I'm sure she'd have got on just fine with Sakura.
My point exactly. I honestly don't think we're disagreeing here :3
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:06   Link #5028
mirakura
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Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
Would consider blogspot. Anyway, I wanna respond to some of the things you've said. I'll make a post here so you can see, but I'll repost it in the game discussion, so we won't be posting here again about game discussion.

That Shirou meme, if you call it a Japanese idiom. I've only heard that from Fate/stay night. I've never heard something similar from other anime/mangas from a time when you can call me an otaku.

Also, Saber only survive Gae Bolg, but she didn't avoid getting hurt. After that attack, you would just feel fortunate Saber is blessed with good fortune.

Shirou is partnering with Rin, so you have to take Archer into account, how will Archer counter against it?

And the in game discussion about Lancer never talked about avoiding Gae Bolg by getting out of range, so I have to assume that's not possible. Have to get with the flow of the game.

Anyway, besides the flow of the game, even I don't think running to get out of range would work anyway. It just wouldn't work against the cause and effect curse. Plus, it's hard to be out of Lancer's range.

Then you have to ask, how fast can Lancer do his Gae Bolg. I have to say pretty fast, being Gae Bolg is anti-personnel.
Avalon can block Gae Bolg, easy. Ok, not technically block it, but the wielder won't get hit, no matter how much luck. Saber isn't blessed by 'good fortune', far from it. She has the protection of the Lady of the Lake and the faeries.Therefore her luck. Gae Bolg is cause and effect but Avalon transports the wielder to Avalon temporarily. Something like Gae Bolg, can't strike a thing that's no there
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Old 2014-09-22, 22:18   Link #5029
Lorhand
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It was Saber's luck that saved her from Gae Bolg's curse at the beginning, that's the scene phishmeister68 was talking about. That and her instincts. Of course Avalon would give Gae Bolg the finger, but she didn't have Avalon at that time. The Luck parameter decides whether you have a chance to dodge Gae Bolg and Saber has Rank B with Shirou as her Master.

Last edited by Lorhand; 2014-09-22 at 23:06.
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Old 2014-09-23, 01:09   Link #5030
mirakura
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Lol, yeah, I know that. Just implying that other things apart from Luck and Rho Aias can save a person from Gae Bolg :3
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Old 2014-09-23, 04:15   Link #5031
phishmeister68
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Let me share this mail first. I'll make a post about what I think later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorhand
Quote:
That Shirou meme, if you call it a Japanese idiom. I've only heard that from Fate/stay night. I've never heard something similar from other anime/mangas from a time when you can call me an otaku.
Doesn't change the fact that it's a common saying in Japan, because "dying" has a different meaning in Asia than it has in the West. You can overcome death. We might just as say the wound should be mortal, yet Shirou still survives.

Quote:
Also, Saber only survive Gae Bolg, but she didn't avoid getting hurt. After that attack, you would just feel fortunate Saber is blessed with good fortune.
Luck saves you from Gae Bolg's fate of getting your heart pierced. In that regard Saber already avoided the fatal death that is assured with only B Rank Luck, so what I already said is not wrong at all. I didn't say it 100% prevents you from getting hurt. Saber passed the luck check that allows her to avoid Gae Bolg because Gae Bolg means instant death. Even Lancer complains that Saber evaded it. Not getting your heart pierced = you avoided Gae Bolg = Gae Bolg failed.

CM2 is pretty much saying that Luck let Saber avoid the attack (and instinct helped), though it wasn't enough to completely avoid the stab.

Quote:
Shirou is partnering with Rin, so you have to take Archer into account, how will Archer counter against it?

And the in game discussion about Lancer never talked about avoiding Gae Bolg by getting out of range, so I have to assume that's not possible. Have to get with the flow of the game.
Complete Material books (CM2 and/or CM3) are the source of my answer. Gae Bolg can't be avoided by Archer once Lancer has called its name, but the usage range is 10 meters (that's from FHA, FSN says range is "2-4" though God knows what Nasu means with that because he didn't name the unit). It's stated that Archer would just get the hell away before Lancer uses it. By Nasu. That's where all discussions how Archer means to avoid Gae Bolg end.


This is after I made a post that contain a portion taken from the VN.

No, unlike Gae Bolg, that allows you to find a countermeasure once you find out it will go for the heart, there are no possible counters for Assassin’s secret technique even when you know about it.
If there is a countermeasure, it is only not to let him use it.
To beat it, she must attack him with her strongest blow before Assassin uses that technique---
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Old 2014-09-23, 04:23   Link #5032
GreyZone
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What exactly is your point that you try to convey?
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Old 2014-09-23, 04:31   Link #5033
Lorhand
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I don't understand that either.
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Old 2014-09-23, 09:58   Link #5034
mirakura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
Let me share this mail first. I'll make a post about what I think later.



This is after I made a post that contain a portion taken from the VN.

No, unlike Gae Bolg, that allows you to find a countermeasure once you find out it will go for the heart, there are no possible counters for Assassin’s secret technique even when you know about it.
If there is a countermeasure, it is only not to let him use it.
To beat it, she must attack him with her strongest blow before Assassin uses that technique---
Trololol~

Avalon~

Trololol~
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:12   Link #5035
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by mirakura View Post
Trololol~

Avalon~

Trololol~
It looks a bit childish to just say one word and not taking phishmeister68 serious. I recommend reformulating your post in an actual argument or opinion. It will make your post more comprehensible and stronger.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2014-09-23 at 10:43.
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:14   Link #5036
mirakura
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Lol, it's cos he/she said 'there are no possible counters'. Just proving there is. Haha, Zeltrech's Second magic could help protect as well XD
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:17   Link #5037
Tenchi Hou Take
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Multi-refraction isn't all that great since it basically just means you'll have to take the attack, just because your hit doesn't mean your dead, and if you have the capability to tank it outright or even heal from it your fine.

Gae Bolg you can't block or avoid you have to be out of it's range so it can't be cast. Archer can do it because he can trace gae bolg and has seen it before, but a proper heart strike is a killing blow regardless of durability and you can't regenerate anywhere else it hits.
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:20   Link #5038
mirakura
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No, Archer can cos he has Rho Aias.

Can't hit something that's not there
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:22   Link #5039
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Rho Aias protects against projectiles. Gae Bolg's strike-the-heart curse is not a projectile.
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Old 2014-09-23, 10:24   Link #5040
mirakura
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And Rho Aias blocked it....how??
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