[Manga] Chapter 504 Discussion

[Kafriel]

I want to assume that Minato is of Senju blood, just because Kishi seems to love the idea of "destined rivals" or anything that has to do with destiny in general...I would have liked it more if it was as ^ described though.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I want to assume that Minato is of Senju blood, just because Kishi seems to love the idea of "destined rivals" or anything that has to do with destiny in general...I would have liked it more if it was as ^ described though.

But Naruto's mother is Uzumaki, who are related to the Senju, so Kishimoto somehow managed to do this "destined rivals" thing without suddenly making of Naruto a Senju, which would be quite stupid. And that doesn't change the fact that Minato was a genius who had neither bloodline nor any special gift like a demon, he was from a noname family but his genius and determination led him to be hokage. The "Neji was right" topic should take Minato as a good example and not Naruto, since Naruto has the 9 tails to help him
Kishi did this in a good way, because it would be stupid to make Naruto a dropout and still beat geniuses without any help. If Naruto was like Minato he would probably not need the demon fox's power.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't know why people want this form of racism in this manga
I mean why should everyone who is an excellent ninja be the descendant of the sage of 6 paths. As if anyone else couldn't become an excellent ninja, being genetically inferior. One of the themes of this manga is that people coming from noname families can become great, what they need is being born with talent and having determination. It's just OK that Minato is not from any of the big clans but he raised beyond their level and become hokage. So is the case of the 3rd hokage. The whole modern western civilization is based on the idea of having a noname poor guy making history with scientific inventions, politics or arts.

they dont. there are plenty of excellent ninja in the story (to be fair though ninjutsu did come from the sage) But our main character is destined to change the ninja world. And with his uzumaki blood distantly related to the senju who are descendants of the younger son, HE is related to the sage. i certainly agree that nonames can become great and enjoy that as a theme to this manga. im just not convinced minato is a noname, probably because i dont believe naruto only has uzumaki blood

EDIT: yeah, kushina was pretty much paired with minato when she moved to the village so im gonna definitely say he wasnt a noname

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't know why people want this form of racism in this manga
I mean why should everyone who is an excellent ninja be the descendant of the sage of 6 paths. As if anyone else couldn't become an excellent ninja, being genetically inferior. One of the themes of this manga is that people coming from noname families can become great, what they need is being born with talent and having determination. It's just OK that Minato is not from any of the big clans but he raised beyond their level and become hokage. So is the case of the 3rd hokage. The whole modern western civilization is based on the idea of having a noname poor guy making history with scientific inventions, politics or arts.

I don't really see how that's one of the theme's of the manga...
I mean our main character is revealed to have very famous parents and comes from a very strong bloodline that can be traced back to the first ninja... in the end, the most important characters in the manga at the moment are Naruto, Sasuke, and Madara, who are all big on the famous family lines

You may bring up minato and Sarutobi, but even them we can't really talk about; when it comes down to it we know NOTHING about their family history; their parents could have been anywhere from great ninjas to common sales clerks... for all we know they could have some strong family lines aswell and maybe even could trace their roots to the senju themselves... honestly, considering how kishi has chosen to give us the BS that Senju have been controlling kohona all these years despite NOT A SINGLE CHARACTER carrying the senju name, we can even draw the conclusion that maybe maybe every senju decdent still has the name...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I don't really see how that's one of the theme's of the manga...

Didn't you see the Neji vs Naruto fight? There's even a thread about that (Neji was right)

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I mean our main character is revealed to have very famous parents and comes from a very strong bloodline that can be traced back to the first ninja... in the end, the most important characters in the manga at the moment are Naruto, Sasuke, and Madara, who are all big on the famous family lines

I was referring to Minato, not Naruto. The Uzumaki are not such a famous clan as the Uchiha or Senju. Just see how nobody ever mentioned them being a famous clan when they learned what Naruto's name is.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

considering how kishi has chosen to give us the BS that Senju have been controlling kohona all these years despite NOT A SINGLE CHARACTER carrying the senju name, we can even draw the conclusion that maybe maybe every senju decdent still has the name...

He didn't give us that BS, it's Madara talking about all that, but we know how he tends to lie about things. The 3rd and 4th hokage were not Senju, otherwise Kishi would have stated so. Having ninja villages is about sharing the power, it's not one clan that holds all authority in a village, otherwise it would not work as a village but would fall apart to clans and chaos as it was before the ninja villages system was created.
BTW it was clearly stated that Tsunade is the granddaughter of the 1st hokage, so she is Senju. But it's the noname Jiraiya who was offered to be the hokage and not Tsunade. The best gets the job and not one with the Senju name, Madara simply hates the village that's why he tells all sorts of lies about it.

[prolifik]

Hi guys, I don't really post here much but I just had a thought. Do you think that the 2nd Hokage had some kind of tie to the Uzumaki clan? It is said that he is very adept at water jutsus, edo tensi and other high level sealing techniques.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

And that doesn't change the fact that Minato was a genius who had neither bloodline nor any special gift like a demon, he was from a noname family but his genius and determination led him to be hokage. The "Neji was right" topic should take Minato as a good example and not Naruto, since Naruto has the 9 tails to help him

As an aside, those seals Minato had access to pretty much offset any bloodline limit or tailed demon we've seen so far. That he was a genius from a noname family is a given, but imo those seals are a pretty special gift he had; and without any drawbacks to speak of.

If Neji had discovered some crazy seal that could remove his own cursed seal then he would probably have different views as well.

[morbosfist]

It's not so much a gift as it is a talent for innovation. Everything Minato could do could potentially be learned by anyone.

[james0246]

^Minato is a "genius from a noname family", at least until Kishimoto decides that Naruto needs an even greater heritage, and makes the Namikaze one of the other main branches (if not the main branch) from one of the Rikudou's progeny (the same line the Senjuu's are a part of...but, then again, having Naruto be related to both halfs of the Rikudou legacy makes more sense, so Namikza will be a direct relation to the Uchiha).

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I was referring to Minato, not Naruto. The Uzumaki are not such a famous clan as the Uchiha or Senju. Just see how nobody ever mentioned them being a famous clan when they learned what Naruto's name is.

heh...
Kushina: "Kohona had very close ties to the uzumaki's; Kohona even keep a symbol of them on their jackets... but we never speak of them... ever..."


But Ya well, nobody ever mentioned the name "senju" before madara brought it up...
hell i don't think anyone in kohona spoke of the name either till kushina did in reference to the whirlpool...
even tsunade was not graced with the famous last name... nor the 1st or 2nd hokage until madara spoke of it

and the uzumaki clan was apparently famous enough to get targeted and wiped out by an enemy power....

He didn't give us that BS, it's Madara talking about all that, but we know how he tends to lie about things. The 3rd and 4th hokage were not Senju, otherwise Kishi would have stated so. Having ninja villages is about sharing the power, it's not one clan that holds all authority in a village, otherwise it would not work as a village but would fall apart to clans and chaos as it was before the ninja villages system was created.
BTW it was clearly stated that Tsunade is the granddaughter of the 1st hokage, so she is Senju. But it's the noname Jiraiya who was offered to be the hokage and not Tsunade. The best gets the job and not one with the Senju name, Madara simply hates the village that's why he tells all sorts of lies about it.

Who says the SUR-NAMELESS jiraiya doesn't trace his roots to the senju aswell? =p
And tusnade did have that whole "leaving the village and may never be found" thing that would kind of hold her back... besides, apparently the hokage isn't the end all be all leader seeing as the elders have a high level of leeway when it comes to directing the village (like segregating an entire clan despite the what the hokage himself would want).

kishi takes hundreds of chapters to tell us things that probably should have been mentioned like in the first 50 chapters...
Considering how it took kishi like 200 chapters AFTER sarutobi's death to tell us that Asuma was his son, i would not be so quick to jump to such conclusions about who is not related to who...

Actually, i noticed something that I overlooked about Sarutobi... His father was "sasuke sarutobi"... ya, the sasuke we all loathe was named after him in hopes that he would grow up to be a great ninja like him; you got to be a pretty great ninja if people are naming their kids after you... So even if Sarutobi isn't senju, that is not to say that "Sarutobi" is not a famous clan in its own right...

Originally Posted by james0246

^Minato is a "genius from a noname family", at least until Kishimoto decides that Naruto needs an even greater heritage, and makes the Namikaze one of the other main branches (if not the main branch) from one of the Rikudou's progeny (the same line the Senjuu's are a part of...but, then again, having Naruto be related to both halfs of the Rikudou legacy makes more sense, so Namikza will be a direct relation to the Uchiha).

Or that Minato's mother was a senju, but Minato used his father's last name

[iBeast]

Asuma is the 3rd Hokage's son???

That is one weak ass family.

[Kafriel]

^ I remember Azuma taking down the 9 ninjas chasing Shikamaru back in the Konoha invasion...that, and chopping off Hidan's head Wouldn't call him weak^^

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But Naruto's mother is Uzumaki, who are related to the Senju, so Kishimoto somehow managed to do this "destined rivals" thing without suddenly making of Naruto a Senju, which would be quite stupid. And that doesn't change the fact that Minato was a genius who had neither bloodline nor any special gift like a demon, he was from a noname family but his genius and determination led him to be hokage. The "Neji was right" topic should take Minato as a good example and not Naruto, since Naruto has the 9 tails to help him
Kishi did this in a good way, because it would be stupid to make Naruto a dropout and still beat geniuses without any help. If Naruto was like Minato he would probably not need the demon fox's power.

I think Naruto proved himself eventually to be a genius afterall. Just like Lee's other talents which came to light. Naruto seemed to be a genius in learning new techniques. Also... which probably not seen like that. Is the ability to control the Kyuubi (to a certain extent)... even Killerbee didn't expect it to be so strong. Yet Naruto was doing very well before using it's chakra.

Originally Posted by james0246

^Minato is a "genius from a noname family", at least until Kishimoto decides that Naruto needs an even greater heritage, and makes the Namikaze one of the other main branches (if not the main branch) from one of the Rikudou's progeny (the same line the Senjuu's are a part of...but, then again, having Naruto be related to both halfs of the Rikudou legacy makes more sense, so Namikza will be a direct relation to the Uchiha).

I really hope that you are nowhere close. It would be nice if Minato's parents and those before him were simple common folks who were farmers or hippi's.
Minato being the one to decide to join the academy to become one of the best in history...with a smile....

Originally Posted by iBeast

Asuma is the 3rd Hokage's son???

That is one weak ass family.

The databook placed Asuma above Kakashi. Kakashi who ended up in hospital after most fights. If Shikamaru wasn't there to learn about the secret of him... then pretty much everyone would've died. He really (Hidan) had a nasty technique.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

^ I remember Azuma taking down the 9 ninjas chasing Shikamaru back in the Konoha invasion...that, and chopping off Hidan's head Wouldn't call him weak^^

Me neither

[james0246]

Kind of a side-comment, but does anyone else want to see some sort of interaction between Konohamaru and Kurenai. Nothing romantic, but she is carrying, more or less, his last living (known) relative (I have no idea if Konohamaru's parents are alive), so I always felt there should be some sort of connection between the two, at least a scene together if nothing else...

[Alchemist007]

Maybe in a flashforward they'll show him being a teacher for the kid. As well as Shikamaru probably.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Minato is a "genius from a noname family", at least until Kishimoto decides that Naruto needs an even greater heritage, and makes the Namikaze one of the other main branches (if not the main branch) from one of the Rikudou's progeny (the same line the Senjuu's are a part of...but, then again, having Naruto be related to both halfs of the Rikudou legacy makes more sense, so Namikza will be a direct relation to the Uchiha).

im not sure why noname has to be the default. the absence of a background story on the namikaze shouldnt automatically mean they were ditch diggers...(namikaze sure sounds like a clan of ninjas to me)

as far as naruto having a greater heritage, he does. hes a direct descendant of the sage. while this is the case however, i dont believe he (alone) is meant to represent the sage and all his power. rikudo sennin split his power between two sons, so naruto would need uchiha blood for this to happen. rather i think naruto is meant to be a present day representation of the younger son...the older's son visage being found in none other than......sasuke. reconciling his vengeance will at least on a microscale take care of this hate that so fills the ninja world. i say all this to say that namikaze coming from the uchiha is not likely. if naruto is suppose to represent the younger brother it makes sense that the blood line is reconstituted by combining the branches of the younger brothers lineage, the senju and uzumaki. and we know for certain naruto is half uzumaki...

it matters not whether this is the case. just my thoughts...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

heh...
Kushina: "Kohona had very close ties to the uzumaki's; Kohona even keep a symbol of them on their jackets... but we never speak of them... ever..."

When Naruto tells his name there's no reaction, unlike when Sasuke tells his name. The famous Uchiha clan, in the chuunin exam everybody was waiting to see the Uchiha, not the Uzumaki or any other. Of course we can regard this as a plot hole too, saying that the Uzumaki name was never recognized by anyone because Kishimoto didn't invent the Uzumaki history yet. Also a plot hole to keep the Uzumaki name for Naruto, if the 3rd hokage wanted to hide Naruto's identity he should have given him a random family name so that nobody ever discovers who he is.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

But Ya well, nobody ever mentioned the name "senju" before madara brought it up...
hell i don't think anyone in kohona spoke of the name either till kushina did in reference to the whirlpool...
even tsunade was not graced with the famous last name... nor the 1st or 2nd hokage until madara spoke of it

The family/clan is mentioned when a character becomes important, all these clan issues were not important before the Uchiha story was told.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Who says the SUR-NAMELESS jiraiya doesn't trace his roots to the senju aswell? =p

If i appy that kind of logic:
i say that the ramen girl is a hokage level ninja but there is an important secret that prevent her to show her true power: she's an Uchiha and is hiding her identity because she doesn't want a conflict with the village. She's Itachi's lover, he could not kill her and Sasuke, the only two exceptions. One day when Sasuke will attack the village she will use her EMS to protect the village, just like she did when she had to protect Itachi from Shisui's attack. So by your logic you can't prove me wrong until Kishimoto does not state that the ramen girl is not an Uchiha

Originally Posted by Slayerx

kishi takes hundreds of chapters to tell us things that probably should have been mentioned like in the first 50 chapters...
Considering how it took kishi like 200 chapters AFTER sarutobi's death to tell us that Asuma was his son, i would not be so quick to jump to such conclusions about who is not related to who...

It wasn't important, when Asuma and Shikamaru came into the spotlight Kishi told us about Asuma's background. But who would have cared about that before, when Asuma was just a random jounin.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actually, i noticed something that I overlooked about Sarutobi... His father was "sasuke sarutobi"... ya, the sasuke we all loathe was named after him in hopes that he would grow up to be a great ninja like him; you got to be a pretty great ninja if people are naming their kids after you... So even if Sarutobi isn't senju, that is not to say that "Sarutobi" is not a famous clan in its own right...

That's just a smaller family where the father and son are both famous, a clan is much more, a famous clan has hundreds of years of history and a lot of great ninjas. But we can also say that Sarutobi and his father created a clan, the next famous members of that clan will be Konohamaru and Asuma's child

[HayashiTakara]

I always thought it was funny that Tsunade is basically Naruto's distant relative, since her grandmother is also an Uzumaki. I wonder how she'll feel when she finds out.

[morbosfist]

Why wouldn't she already know?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

When Naruto tells his name there's no reaction, unlike when Sasuke tells his name. The famous Uchiha clan, in the chuunin exam everybody was waiting to see the Uchiha, not the Uzumaki or any other. Of course we can regard this as a plot hole too, saying that the Uzumaki name was never recognized by anyone because Kishimoto didn't invent the Uzumaki history yet. Also a plot hole to keep the Uzumaki name for Naruto, if the 3rd hokage wanted to hide Naruto's identity he should have given him a random family name so that nobody ever discovers who he is.

The family/clan is mentioned when a character becomes important, all these clan issues were not important before the Uchiha story was told.

It wasn't important, when Asuma and Shikamaru came into the spotlight Kishi told us about Asuma's background. But who would have cared about that before, when Asuma was just a random jounin.

Plot hole/badwriting is pretty much the best word to for all this... when it comes down to it, these facts were ALWAYS important, they just were not immediately relevant. Thing is though, a good writer will not hide these facts until they are relevant to the plot, but instead weave them into the story to help build on the background of the world... essentially he would build a set up so that the reveal is nice and seemless. Many of these facts would not have spoiled anything and would not have ruined any surprises... frankly it makes me come to the conclusion that kishi really just leaves these holes in the history so that he can retcon the story later and make it seem like that's how he always planned it.

Asuma for instance... Don't you think that Sarutobi's death would have been a good time to atleast hint if not outright point out that he was related... why not have HIM comfort konohmaru? frankly I can't help but think that maybe kishi took advantage of Asuma's lack of a family name to make him more interesting before he died...

Minato Namikaze is another one... the name has no significance on it's own. We can not connect to any other ninjas, the history, other families, and especially not Naruto himself... why was such a meaningless name kept hidden and not dropped early on in the series? One reason i could think of is that kishi wasn't sure whether or not to give him the name "uzumaki"; hell might not have even been sure if he would make him Naruto's father... no name leaves him room to just make up anykind of shit

As for the Senju, we would have had no clue how significant that would become if we heard their name back in chapter 25... we would just note them as being just one of the clan's of kohona. Hell we could have the senju symbol thrown into the background a few times never knowing it's true significance. Nothing was really gained by keeping them a secret... which is again, part of why i think kishi is making up crap as he goes filling in those nice big convenient holes... may not have even invented the senju till part 2 kicked in...

That's just a smaller family where the father and son are both famous, a clan is much more, a famous clan has hundreds of years of history and a lot of great ninjas. But we can also say that Sarutobi and his father created a clan, the next famous members of that clan will be Konohamaru and Asuma's child

whose to say?
Again, with the senju we knew of ONLY 4 members in their entire history and that was before we even knew the family name... Essentially, until Madara story kicked in everyone could say that the 1st, 2nd, and 5th we part of a minor clan that just so happened to produce some of the first strong ninja. this is the odd thing about the famous clan since such a major clan should likely have numerous descendants that we should know about, and yet we only know one currently alive... the same practically applies to Sarutobi; we only know a few of their members, but just like the senju, this may not at all mean that there are not a good number more.

Hell all kishi needs to do is have someone step up a say that "sarutobi was equal to the hyuuga in their level of strength and importance when kohona first formed", and boom, instant importance... kishi's done it twice already, he can do it again... But really, the 3rd hokage, his father, his son, and kohonamaru (who seems to be advancing as quickly as Naruto though behind by 3 years) are evidence of a strong family line.