AnimeSuki Forums

Marcus H. · 2011-11-23, 09:23

@Frailty
Well, there is a possibility that Ginjou might be telling the truth, since Soul Society has proven several times already that they practice Gray Morality and might be interested in creating hybrids in the future. But what makes believing Ginjou difficult is how Tsukishima's Book of the End confused us about Ginjou's personality.

EDIT: Just read the chapter, and they sly look on Ginjou's face does seem like he's actually accepted being "conned by the most peaceful man on Soul Society", which affects his credibility, actually.

kache · 2011-11-23, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

invasion of privacy is always an issue...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it if you found out the government was watching you everywhere.

If I was so strong that I nearly overtook the government once I'd consider it an honor.

ronin myael · 2011-11-23, 09:38

so he's being watched. so they kept secrets from him. big deal! where's the evil in that? so okay, it's kinda illegal maybe immoral and annoying at least. but it's not like ukitake plotted to kill him or his family in case he tries to betray soul society. obviously isshin knows about this and has kept it a secret from ichigo as well. why would a father conspire to keep something from his son if he knew it would bring him harm? that was the big reveal?! not much of a reveal to me.

i hate it that kubo tried to infuse some suspense and drama into this chapter by making it seem like ichigo would lose his resolve again and go berserk because he was duped. besides, ichigo has been duped by far more evil people than that. kon used to dupe him all the time!

where the heck is that little perv anyway? i miss that little dude.

Marcus H. · 2011-11-23, 09:51

^ What if Ichigo is just one big experiment?

ronin myael · 2011-11-23, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ What if Ichigo is just one big experiment?

well then the bad guy wouldn't be ukitake now, would it? who has the resources and the capability to do such an experiment? urahara. and if he is, then why would ginjou blame poor ukitake? he could have went ahead and said that urahara was the one responsible for it all and he conspired with ukitake and isshin. but from the look on isshin and urahara's faces they don't seem very afraid about ichigo finding out the truth. it's like they meant to tell him the "secret" anyway. if i'm not mistaken, isshin even tried to talk to ichigo about this secret but ichigo refused to do it. it's actually one of the things that really bothered me. how do you survive for two years without asking your father who the hell he is after finding out that he kept the fact that he's a shinigami a secret from you? didn't make much sense to me.

SeanQ · 2011-11-23, 11:58

Ishida: They be watching you Ichigo? Big Deal?
Ginjou: You forget Ishida? Mayuri be watching you !!
Ishida: The real enemy is Mayuri !!

lucasd · 2011-11-23, 12:49

Mayuri is watching even Ishida's metabolism, but hey it's no coincidence they are called SS - Schutzstaffe, I meant Soul Society

Simon_Lord · 2011-11-23, 12:50

im going to be REALLY mad if they use ''HIM'' as the new villain!!!

Haak · 2011-11-23, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucasd

Mayuri is watching even Ishida's metabolism, but hey it's no coincidence they are called SS - Schutzstaffe, I meant Soul Society

Lol. Well at least Mayuri is simply watching Ishida via the bacteria rather than controlling his reiatsu (Though if he can control those bacteria and those bacteria can be pathogenic...). Still...it's rather silly how that was played for laughs and yet this is played for drama.

AvalonCode · 2011-11-23, 13:41

You guys keep saying "oh, its not such a bad thing to secretly watch Ichi" but, you are missing GINJOU'S point. According to what Gin said they not only what to observe them but, control them, use them as a pawn and then kill them when/if they become useless. If this is all true then it IS a bad thing and SS IS evil and they are wrong for doing what they are doing.

Haak · 2011-11-23, 13:45

He said kill them if they rebel, not when they become useless and that's something that's reasonable to a degree.

Having something that controls their reiatsu is also reasonable to a degree as well.

SeanQ · 2011-11-23, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvalonCode

You guys keep saying "oh, its not such a bad thing to secretly watch Ichi" but, you are missing GINJOU'S point. According to what Gin said they not only what to observe them but, control them, use them as a pawn and then kill them when/if they become useless. If this is all true then it IS a bad thing and SS IS evil and they are wrong for doing what they are doing.

Ginjou was the first substitute shini...I guess he became useless...but he ain't dead...
And Ichigo became useless after the Aizen fight...he didn't have any assassination attempt of any sort... so...

AvalonCode · 2011-11-23, 14:12

I apologize I meant rebel not useless. In any case go back and read pages 17 and 18. Like I stated before IF what Gin said is in fact true (I tend to think it is according to Urahara on pages 4,5) then it is a very bad thing what SS is doing. Using anyone as a pawn as if their life is a game is bad and borderline evil. Tell me, if you found out someone was spying on you, trying to controll you and use you as they see fit would you not be upset?! REBEL even?! @SeanQ I will find the chapter but, I think Capt Hitsuguya said that Gin had disappeared thats why he aint dead yet.

KnightOfTwo · 2011-11-23, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanQ

Ginjou was the first substitute shini...I guess he became useless...but he ain't dead...
And Ichigo became useless after the Aizen fight...he didn't have any assassination attempt of any sort... so...

Exactly. The captains, lieutenants and some seated officers of SS actually went out of their way to give him his powers back instead of writing him off as useless. They would "control" him by making sure he isn't working against them (like Aizen). He does ignore them, he disobeyed Yamamoto for instance when he went after Ori and they didn't punish him for that. He lost his shinigami powers after fighting Aizen and became useless yet nothing happened to him.

Ginjou's manipulation doesn't really serve a purpose other than saying that his friends have been keeping secrets behind his back. Which yeah, is annoying, but isn't the shocking revelation that he makes it out to be.

KnightOfTwo · 2011-11-23, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvalonCode

I apologize I meant rebel not useless. In any case go back and read pages 17 and 18. Like I stated before IF what Gin said is in fact true (I tend to think it is according to Urahara on pages 4,5) then it is a very bad thing what SS is doing. Using anyone as a pawn as if their life is a game is bad and borderline evil. Tell me, if you found out someone was spying on you, trying to controll you and use you as they see fit would you not be upset?! REBEL even?! @SeanQ I will find the chapter but, I think Capt Hitsuguya said that Gin had disappeared thats why he aint dead yet.

Wouldn't that qualify Urahara as being bad too? He used Rukia as a means to hide the Hogyoku, he used Ichigo and co. to prevent Aizen from getting his hands on it, Yoruichi kept an eye on them for him. As far as I can see, he used them just as much as SS uses Ichi.

Akashin · 2011-11-23, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvalonCode

I apologize I meant rebel not useless. In any case go back and read pages 17 and 18. Like I stated before IF what Gin said is in fact true (I tend to think it is according to Urahara on pages 4,5) then it is a very bad thing what SS is doing. Using anyone as a pawn as if their life is a game is bad and borderline evil. Tell me, if you found out someone was spying on you, trying to controll you and use you as they see fit would you not be upset?! REBEL even?! @SeanQ I will find the chapter but, I think Capt Hitsuguya said that Gin had disappeared thats why he aint dead yet.

The part about them being used as SS's pawns seemed more like it was Ginjou's feelings on the matter bleeding into it rather than a real fact, so until we hear it from the horse's mouth I'm going to go ahead and say that them being little more than pawns was just how Ginjou perceived the situation. And if you take that part out, them being monitored is perfectly reasonable, though that's not to say that Ichigo should just take it in stride either. I know personally that, no matter how much logic was thrown at me, I'd be mad if I learned people were spying on me. That doesn't make the act itself bad though.

Haak · 2011-11-23, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvalonCode

I apologize I meant rebel not useless. In any case go back and read pages 17 and 18. Like I stated before IF what Gin said is in fact true (I tend to think it is according to Urahara on pages 4,5) then it is a very bad thing what SS is doing. Using anyone as a pawn as if their life is a game is bad and borderline evil. Tell me, if you found out someone was spying on you, trying to controll you and use you as they see fit would you not be upset?! REBEL even?! @SeanQ I will find the chapter but, I think Capt Hitsuguya said that Gin had disappeared thats why he aint dead yet.

But all we really know is that the badge controls his reiatsu (And we can't even be sure of that). Ginjou says it's used to control him and use him as they see fit. Fair enough that's bad, but the big problem here is the blatantly obvious cracks in his arguments. No sane person would give Ginjou's accusations any real merit until they first heard Ukitake/Soul Society's side of the story. And yet here it's being played for drama with Ishida all worried about what it might mean and everything.

Casshern · 2011-11-23, 15:16

So does anybody think Rukia borrowed this monitoring mechanism to watch Ichigo whip the dolphin?

solomon · 2011-11-23, 15:29

Well now THIS is interesting.

Ginjou may be lying or even exaggerating but either way, a nice little bombshell.

Although I don't think it's too big a deal that a sub shinigami would be under SOME kind of restrictions. You can't just give the things out all willy nilly. Maybe Ichigo knows that and still trusts the men (and women) he fought with and wants to waste Ginjo anyway.

Kafriel · 2011-11-23, 15:37

Based on facts, Ichigo beat the living lights out of not one, but TWO captains, back when SS was srs bsnss. They didn't execute him then, no need to do so now. Not to mention Ukitake himself had a chance to waste Ichigo back on the bridge, if he was the "mastermind" behind such a thing, he wouldn't have given it a second thought and captured Ichigo right there.
Not to mention, Ginjou's just bitching at Ichigo because he had it bad...and we still don't know why. Looking forward to Kubo's next sob story...

2011-11-23, 09:23	Link #61
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	@Frailty Well, there is a possibility that Ginjou might be telling the truth, since Soul Society has proven several times already that they practice Gray Morality and might be interested in creating hybrids in the future. But what makes believing Ginjou difficult is how Tsukishima's Book of the End confused us about Ginjou's personality. EDIT: Just read the chapter, and they sly look on Ginjou's face does seem like he's actually accepted being "conned by the most peaceful man on Soul Society", which affects his credibility, actually. __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2011-11-23, 09:38	Link #63
ronin myael lost ronin Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...	so he's being watched. so they kept secrets from him. big deal! where's the evil in that? so okay, it's kinda illegal maybe immoral and annoying at least. but it's not like ukitake plotted to kill him or his family in case he tries to betray soul society. obviously isshin knows about this and has kept it a secret from ichigo as well. why would a father conspire to keep something from his son if he knew it would bring him harm? that was the big reveal?! not much of a reveal to me. i hate it that kubo tried to infuse some suspense and drama into this chapter by making it seem like ichigo would lose his resolve again and go berserk because he was duped. besides, ichigo has been duped by far more evil people than that. kon used to dupe him all the time! where the heck is that little perv anyway? i miss that little dude. __________________ "Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman) Last edited by ronin myael; 2011-11-23 at 09:50.

2011-11-23, 09:51	Link #64
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	^ What if Ichigo is just one big experiment? __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2011-11-23, 11:58	Link #66
SeanQ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008	Ishida: They be watching you Ichigo? Big Deal? Ginjou: You forget Ishida? Mayuri be watching you !! Ishida: The real enemy is Mayuri !! __________________ Your signature was deleted by a Mod because it exceeded the size limit requested in the forum rules! Please take a look at it.

2011-11-23, 12:50	Link #68
Simon_Lord Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Canada Age: 36	im going to be REALLY mad if they use ''HIM'' as the new villain!!! __________________

2011-11-23, 12:49	Link #67
lucasd Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006	Mayuri is watching even Ishida's metabolism, but hey it's no coincidence they are called SS - Schutzstaffe, I meant Soul Society

2011-11-23, 13:41	Link #70
AvalonCode Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Online	You guys keep saying "oh, its not such a bad thing to secretly watch Ichi" but, you are missing GINJOU'S point. According to what Gin said they not only what to observe them but, control them, use them as a pawn and then kill them when/if they become useless. If this is all true then it IS a bad thing and SS IS evil and they are wrong for doing what they are doing. __________________ What did U say?! I didn't think so

2011-11-23, 13:45	Link #71
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	He said kill them if they rebel, not when they become useless and that's something that's reasonable to a degree. Having something that controls their reiatsu is also reasonable to a degree as well. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2011-11-23, 14:12	Link #73
AvalonCode Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Online	I apologize I meant rebel not useless. In any case go back and read pages 17 and 18. Like I stated before IF what Gin said is in fact true (I tend to think it is according to Urahara on pages 4,5) then it is a very bad thing what SS is doing. Using anyone as a pawn as if their life is a game is bad and borderline evil. Tell me, if you found out someone was spying on you, trying to controll you and use you as they see fit would you not be upset?! REBEL even?! @SeanQ I will find the chapter but, I think Capt Hitsuguya said that Gin had disappeared thats why he aint dead yet. __________________ What did U say?! I didn't think so

2011-11-23, 15:16	Link #78
Casshern Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	So does anybody think Rukia borrowed this monitoring mechanism to watch Ichigo whip the dolphin?

2011-11-23, 15:29	Link #79
solomon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Suburban DC	Well now THIS is interesting. Ginjou may be lying or even exaggerating but either way, a nice little bombshell. Although I don't think it's too big a deal that a sub shinigami would be under SOME kind of restrictions. You can't just give the things out all willy nilly. Maybe Ichigo knows that and still trusts the men (and women) he fought with and wants to waste Ginjo anyway.

2011-11-23, 15:37	Link #80
Kafriel Senior Guest Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Athens (GMT+2) Age: 35	Based on facts, Ichigo beat the living lights out of not one, but TWO captains, back when SS was srs bsnss. They didn't execute him then, no need to do so now. Not to mention Ukitake himself had a chance to waste Ichigo back on the bridge, if he was the "mastermind" behind such a thing, he wouldn't have given it a second thought and captured Ichigo right there. Not to mention, Ginjou's just bitching at Ichigo because he had it bad...and we still don't know why. Looking forward to Kubo's next sob story...