Fate/stay night Episode 21 Discussion thread

[mlai]

Well, I am going by the animation alone, plus whatever summaries I read from Wikipedia. However, only #2 of your points seem valid.

1. Even in the game, all the heroes are those with unfulfilled desires. Even Cuchulainn who says he doesn't. Well, in the actual myth, he was slain by enemies who used cheating to first weaken him. He can't be happy dying like that.

2. This is another extremely valid reason which prompted the decision to destroy the Grail and allow Saber to depart. I didn't think of it. Thanks.

3. As I said, not using the true Holy Grail detracts from its symbolic power. Since the story already uses actual mythological heroes, including Christian mythological heroes, I saw no point for the story to not use the true HG.

4. The anime does not specifically state that the HG is not the true cup of Jesus. Therefore, if the game states this... then I much prefer the anime presentation.

[Hemisphere]

1. Seriously. Any hero works. Even those who doesn't have desires of obtaining the Holy Grail.

Like Assassin. He only wishes to fight someone worthy. Or Caster. She doesn't have any wish at obtaining the grail at all. Or for a stronger example, Rider. Rider doesn't care about the Grail - she cares for Sakura. That and, Caster and Rider aren't even Heroic Spirits to begin with.

3. Because the true Holy Grail is quite an artifact in itself. This one, the one used in Fuyuki City's Holy Grail wars, is only a system set up by the three families for their own ulterior motives. The mystery that the true Holy Grail has is preserved - frankly, I like it this way.

4. The anime itself implies that the Holy Grail isn't even the true Holy Grail, for it to be tainted by Angra Maingyu's dark alignment. Also, seeing that the anime (tried to) follow the game's Fate route by the letter, then it can also be derived that the Holy Grail in there isn't the true Holy Grail.

Also, it's much preferrable to not use the true Holy Grail. It adds more mystery to it - and if you're just after the symbolism that it portrays, then Angra Maingyu's contamination is fitting enough for it.

Spoiler:

The Holy Grail doesn't contain the sins of humanity just because it caught the blood of Christ - that's your opinion on it. After Angra Maingyu's soul was reabsorbed by the Grail, it gave birth to a wish-granting demon by essence of Angra Maingyu's naturally evil alignment. That was what gave the Fuyuki Grail the nature of granting wishes only through destruction.

If you wanted to get right down to it, the symbolism of the Holy Grail's contamination in Fate/Stay Night was that "everything has a price". The Herioc Souls that became the hope of humanity, were bound to the Throne of Heroes instead of having a peaceful rest as they deserved. Arthur, who had deceived her country so as to lead it and make it strong, watched it crumbled from the inside because they doubted her king. Shirou, who had believed that he had to become the hero of justice no matter what the cost for people whose lives didn't really matter to him, faced the consequences of this decision in the embodiment of Archer.

That is the price of Fate.

[gammaoh]

Plus you have to add that the Grail is originally, according to experts, a Celtic myth that has been christianized by Chrétien de Troyes through his "novels" about the legend of King Arthur.

[mlai]

Assassin - Lost in a duel to Musashi. Unfulfilled desire.
Caster - Ditched by Jason and killed her own kids in fury. Unfulfilled.
Medusa (in Fate) - Became a monster and killed her own sisters. Regrets.

I don't think they have to frankly state "I want to fight in the Grail War because I have regrets!" They simply must have a tragic fate which leaves them longing for some sort of 2nd chance or extension. It doesn't matter whether they think the Grail can help them. For example, I wouldn't expect Musashi to be summoned into the Grail War.

I don't see how the subsitution of a generic "grail" is better than the true HG. Even if you assume the true HG was used in the anime, it doesn't detract from its legend because like in all other stories, it was never attainable in the end. And yes, my interpretation is my opinion. It doesn't contradict the anime. If it contradicts the game, so be it. Kotomine stated that it was the true HG. If it was never the true HG, the mages had no reason to call it as such. Could've just called it by anything Engrish.

I know the HG began as a Celtic cauldron. But not until the Christian HG was the idea that it was unattainable attributed to it.

[andiyar]

The concept of a Holy Grail today implies unattainability without necessarily assuming the religious icon. For instance, read almost anything on scientific advance or historical research and you'll eventually hear about "The Holy Grail" of genetic engineering, or of Roman Studies, and so on and so forth. Although the term Holy Grail has roots in Christianity, in its current form the religion is no longer required. Rather, the term refers to an ultimate goal that must be striven to be obtained, if it is even achievable.

In this sense, calling the Heaven's Feel object the Holy Grail is referring more to the ultimate reward than to the religious aspect - which makes more sense in this context for two reasons - specifically, the fact that Fate is a Japanese work, written for an audience where Christianity is a non entity at worst and a small curiosity at best; and also due to the magical nature - even if they were attempting a Christian tale with a Christian object, I'm fairly certain they could pick something that isn't as at odds with the ideas of sorcery and witchcraft.

Oh, and a couple of points. The notion of the Holy Grail as a receptacle for sin is interesting - but I can't say I've ever read anything in that sense in any what I've perused in terms of Grail Cycle mythos. Normally, the Holy Grail is effectively a Christianised Cauldron of Bran the Blessed - with the fertility and natural powers embodied thereby. Supposedly, these magical gifts were conferred upon the cup when Christ's blood was spilled into the dish. The blood wasn't a metaphor for the sin, rather it was an enchanting, spiritual force. So therefore assuming that the Heaven's Feel Holy Grail is the same as the Christian one is, again to my reasoning, flawed, as the Christian Grail was enriched rather than subverted by the inclusion of blood, whereas the Heaven's Feel Grail was corrupted by darkness, and is now tainted.

Interesting line of thought though.


-Andiyar

[mlai]

Yeah thanks, I know my reasoning on the HG isn't supported by anything outside of this anime. I was simply going on the lines of "If I was a Jpnese writer and I was gonna make up some weird plot twist about the Holy Grail, that is totally bogus yet makes a strange kinda sense... what would I cook up?"

Again, in the anime, Kotomine stresses it is the true HG, and the screen shows an ornate bejeweled cup which is obviously supposed to represent the cup of Christ rather than some generic formless power source. You can say he's lying, but he had no reason to. Saying he's lying because he's evil, is weak. Saying he's lying because he's trying to motivate the Servants with a hoax, is inconsistent because this is the scene where he was actually revealing the dark nature of the HG.

It is my impression that the anime writer attempts to move away from the techy stuff of Nasuverse just like I am doing with the HG explanation. I think another case in point is Archer, who in the anime isn't there to kill Shirou. If you only know of the anime, you can easily reach the conclusion that he came back to this time in order to prepare Shirou for the upcoming battles, by becoming his own mentor. The reason he keeps being so mean and cold is simply because the dumbassedness of young Shirou keeps pissing him off.

[andiyar]

Well to be perfectly blunt, very few of us here are actually in the intended audience for the Fate/stay night anime. The audience it was made for was, naturally, the actual game players themselves. I'd think you would find that the anime-only watchers would figure very peripherally in the minds of the series compositors - after all, we're targetting for the game-playing otaku, we're in this to make money. This attitude shows in some of the writing in the show, as well as much of the pacing - there's a lot of stuff about this issue on the forums, in the episode threads. Basically, if it were written as an anime first and foremost, there's a lot of things that it wouldn't be able to get away with.

Now, with the Grail. I believe the wording in the sub I watched was that this grail was 'authentic' after Shirou was rather surprised at the Holy Grail being present. He goes on to state that the Holy Grail can grant it's possessor infinite power, and that otherwise it's authenticity is worthless. Does this mean it is the true Holy Grail, because it is 'authentic''? Authentically what?

Showing as the cup of Christ is interesting too - but I'd say that is more of a plot device to the viewer, as we find out in the actual anime that the Holy Grail is channeled through a person - in the case of the anime, Ilya. So the Holy Grail as a cup is more of a red herring than anything else, the Heaven's Feel Grail has a person as its vessel.

Oh, and as to Kirei lying, you say he has no reason too. Keep in mind, though, that at this point he is not only the Master of Lancer but the Master of Gilgamesh, and that he has cheated and connived his entire life. No reason for lying? His very life appears to be a lie - he promises Shirou safe conduct when at the Church, and yet later forces a confrontation and has him stabbed through the chest. Kotomine is an exemplary liar. ^^

As to the references to Archer, this ties back in again to intended audience. Archer is shown in his capacity as a measure of fanservice. Hell, the entire anime is, realistically, an exercise in fanservice produced for the players of the TYPE-MOON game. Yes, I'd agree that he comes off as not a murdering psychopath in the anime. But then, in the Fate scenario of the game, he doesn't come across as such either - or so I'm told.


-Andiyar

[Hemisphere]

Kirei doesn't lie. But then again, he doesn't tell the truth either.

[andiyar]

Actions speak louder than words, sometimes. And Kirei's actions, especially after his proclamation of himself as the war supervisor, are somewhat questionable. Compared to what he says he will be doing, what he actually does... well, let's say he's bending the truth a bit to link those two together.


-Andiyar

[mlai]

The most important aspects of the Kiss was shown.., that was what was more important..
Aspects these of course.., beeing Saber's vulnerability and the Tear she shed..; we do see the kiss in a distant camera angle, but those 2 aspects where realy what they kiss itself was trying to emphasise.
And I have to say.., they made it perfectly..

Just wanted to add something about "true love" or "perfect love"...
IMO, many stories take this kind of love for granted. The writer seems to assume that the love depicted is "true love" because he said so, or because the characters really love each other. There seems to be an assumption that *anyone* can have true love, as long as -
(1) The circumstances are right.
(2) They're the good guys.
(3) They overcome the obstacles in their way.

Man, that is so bullshit. It's a big reason why I hate the movie The Princess Bride that ppl love so much. Granted, it's supposed to be a lighthearted fairy tale. But I still can't stand it. True love just because it says so.

IMO, only certain types of ppl can ever have true love. Most ppl simply can't, no matter how much they think they want it. I don't care if the protagonists in Princess Bride had 10 more hours to their movie - the actors will never convince me that their characters are capable of anything more than conventional romance. The fact that they're impulsive, courageous, and adventurous ppl who are capable of overcoming great obstacles to fulfill that romance DOES NOT make it any less conventional.

Only ppl like Shirou and Saber are capable of reaching the state of perfect love, because of their character makeup. That's what makes the ending so tragic; ordinary couples dying/parting wouldn't be so moving (for me).

(There are other types of personalities that can achieve true love, of course.)

[andiyar]

You seem to have a bit of a narrowminded view on what constitutes 'true love' there, mlai. What to you does true love mean? I would see 'true love' in its most expressive state as being love that is not limited and is not bordered, but is completely unconditional - loving someone in absolute. Is this really that rare? Or are you seeing 'true love' as being something semi-mythical popularised by bad seventeenth century poetry? ^^

As to the Princess Bride, I really, really love this movie. Do I care whether or not Buttercup and Westley have 'true love' that is completely true? Not particularly no. I have very rarely completely suspended belief in a movie or a story so that I simply accept everything that occurs. I just simply switch the analytical parts of my mind off and enjoy what is presented - unless I'm watching with a goal in mind. The Princess Bride is, as you said, a light hearted fairy tale. But if that is all you take from it, I think you need your humour levels refilled. True love in this film is a plot device and a character motive - who cares if it's really 'true love' or not? Enjoy it for its impact, not its 'poor' realisation. Oh, and by my definition of true love being unconditional, I would say that the love they share could indeed qualify.

And a final question - what is it in Shirou and Saber's character makeup to you that makes them capable of 'reaching the state of perfect love'? What is this 'state of perfect love' you're talking about? What does it involve that differentiates it from 'not perfect' love? How can you even define a state of perfection as applied to love when you are outside the relationship looking in?

I'm curious to know what True Love is... and what makes Saber and Shirou so uniquely suited for it?


-Andiyar

[npal]

You know, for something like "true love" to exist, you must judge, like happiness, from the results, AFTER they can no longer being altered, ie after the one(s) in question have died. You can't be certain that Shirou and Saber have reached that "true love" state, whatever that maybe be, until Shirou dies after staying true to that love till the end, and we don't know that and neither can we assume, because, like Shirou->Archer, a person can change.