Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Rava]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

I think he was referring to mental interference magic or magic that affects the soul like Miyuki's Cocytus.

Mental Magic like Cocytus is categorized under External Systematic Magic. The Cardinal Code Theory is specifically Systematic Magic only.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

The battles in Mahouka are all about compatibility. Tomitsuka's magic is not only a counter to Tatsuya and Shippou's, but also magic like Mayumi's.

and Tomitsuka should be able to counter Maya's Meteor Line.

[CatRules]

I read the last few pages about "Tat is not strong anymore", "" the author nerfed him", "why there are so many Tat's counters?"

As a Mahouka and Tatsuya fan myself, I think this is natural.


Ability wise, Tatsuya shines best as an assassin. With his Elemental Sight, he can locate his targets anywhere in the world via IDEA(Informational Dimension). Adding Trident(triple Decomposition), unprepared targets would likely die in instance.

It doesn't matter if his enemies have ways to counter his magic. If they turned into dust before they even noticed that they were being targeted or before they could used their defensive abilities, who cares?

There are tons of people with ways to fend off Mist Dispersal. So what?

Tat can kill them before they can actually do anything to defend themselves; that is the truth.


In the end, Tat abilities can be more effective if he uses them to snipe down his enemies from somewhere far away from enemies' reach.

He is naturally a long-range specialist. Just leave malee combat to Erika and the likes. (yes! like what my signature's saying!)

[Ultragunner]

IMO, Tats is so strong that you cannot get him in "conventional" ways. And just like some bosses RPG, in order to fight/restrain/challenge Tats, you will need a very specific "set up" and abilities.

Tats is already very OP, and in order to balance it out, he is heavily restricted. Thus, the "fun" part of this LN (in regard to character strength development) is how Tats struggles with those "abnormalities"

[babbo3d]

Originally Posted by CatRules

I read the last few pages about "Tat is not strong anymore", "" the author nerfed him", "why there are so many Tat's counters?"

As a Mahouka and Tatsuya fan myself, I think this is natural.


Ability wise, Tatsuya shines best as an assassin. With his Elemental Sight, he can locate his targets anywhere in the world via IDEA(Informational Dimension). Adding Trident(triple Decomposition), unprepared targets would likely die in instance.

It doesn't matter if his enemies have ways to counter his magic. If they turned into dust before they even noticed that they were being targeted or before they could used their defensive abilities, who cares?

There are tons of people with ways to fend off Mist Dispersal. So what?

Tat can kill them before they can actually do anything to defend themselves; that is the truth.


In the end, Tat abilities can be more effective if he uses them to snipe down his enemies from somewhere far away from enemies' reach.

He is naturally a long-range specialist. Just leave malee combat to Erika and the likes. (yes! like what my signature's saying!)

I think is like what Mayumi told Azusa before everyone has strength and weaknesses and just because he is better at somethings then someone else they have a hard time accepting he is not better in everything (us not tatsuya himself.).

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by babbo3d

I think is like what Mayumi told Azusa before everyone has strength and weaknesses and just because he is better at somethings then someone else they have a hard time accepting he is not better in everything (us not tatsuya himself.).

Totally agree. Besides, the fight also give us insight on Tatsuya's never seen before new skill. I prefer to see a well fought fight than a simply one hit KO.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Simple, because if he could compress it further, the weakness of Gram Demolition would NOT be the distance. The more you can compress it, the further it will be effective.

I still don't get why we're still talking about distance even if he uses it at zero range. I get what you're trying to say but for the psion bullet to get dispersed it needs to hit a wall strong enough to resist the initial shock


But you have NO idea as to how thick Tomitsuka's armor is, or his psion count. Therefore, you can make absolutely no conclusions as to its density. What if it's a micrometer thick? Then a bullet-sized gram demolition is boned, let alone a cannon-ball sized one.

If it's a micrometer thick what makes you think Tatsuya can't make Gram Demolition a micrometer thick, if you think about it as long as tatsuya can compress something to a higher level he will win the density battle.


The average grain of sand is equal to 0.0026 grams. That's equal about 50 TONS of TNT. This is what 50 Tons can do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIQr62lZbsM

Yeeaaaaah, that'll work great in close-quarters combat.

lol I know that's a lot but that was just an example, there must be something in nature that has weight between that of a grain of sand and molecule and if there isn't then maybe tatsuya can use MB the same way he can use Mist Dispersion to not destroy the entire body of someone just part of it, so if he can target a grain of sand and only convert a small portion of it, he could do this.

Ah, so how much force would Tatsuya need to throw his ball of rapidly expanding psions at?

You've also missed the point, as it doesn't matter if it's rubber or iron. The point is: same material. The reason I used rubber is because the moment you let go, at LEAST half of it is trying to escape in a different direction than the one you want it to go in. Everything tries to move in the direction of least resistance.

I see what you're getting at, basically since tatsuya releases the bullet he is no longer maintaining its form but since Tomitsuka is using it as a wall even if he gets hit he will just keep forcing it to keep its form, right ?
The thing is it all depends on the strength of his wall vs the strength of the bullet, if the bullet is strong enough it should be able to crack the wall before it loses all of its power

If you fire it at a wall of equal density and same material, it will. At the bare minimum, it will not break through.

Originally Posted by CatRules

I read the last few pages about "Tat is not strong anymore", "" the author nerfed him", "why there are so many Tat's counters?"

As a Mahouka and Tatsuya fan myself, I think this is natural.


Ability wise, Tatsuya shines best as an assassin. With his Elemental Sight, he can locate his targets anywhere in the world via IDEA(Informational Dimension). Adding Trident(triple Decomposition), unprepared targets would likely die in instance.

It doesn't matter if his enemies have ways to counter his magic. If they turned into dust before they even noticed that they were being targeted or before they could used their defensive abilities, who cares?

There are tons of people with ways to fend off Mist Dispersal. So what?

Tat can kill them before they can actually do anything to defend themselves; that is the truth.


In the end, Tat abilities can be more effective if he uses them to snipe down his enemies from somewhere far away from enemies' reach.

He is naturally a long-range specialist. Just leave malee combat to Erika and the likes. (yes! like what my signature's saying!)

Ok so now you want Tatsuya to abandon his Gram Demolition, his master-level hand to hand combat level, his Regrowth and many facets of Elemental Sight such as detecting the enemy's magic in-battle ?
Tatsuya is not just good at long range, he is good at every single range.
Why can't you guys just admit he's being severely countered by the author on purpose, him having this much difficulty against his opponents is all because of it

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

IMO, Tats is so strong that you cannot get him in "conventional" ways. And just like some bosses RPG, in order to fight/restrain/challenge Tats, you will need a very specific "set up" and abilities.

Tats is already very OP, and in order to balance it out, he is heavily restricted. Thus, the "fun" part of this LN (in regard to character strength development) is how Tats struggles with those "abnormalities"

I can't speak for everyone but personally I don't find this fun in any way.
If the author wanted to make this series about Tatsuya having extreme difficulties in-battle and winning through strategies he should not have given him broken abilities and then started creating specific counters to each one, should've made him weak.
Imagine watching a boxing match where one of the opponent has his hands tied down or whatever, will you enjoy it ?

Originally Posted by NoLife222

Totally agree. Besides, the fight also give us insight on Tatsuya's never seen before new skill. I prefer to see a well fought fight than a simply one hit KO.
long drawn battle are good too, I completely agree with you.
What I do not like is that he's being put in such situations against opponents he shouldn't be having this much trouble against, long drawn battles could be achieved against other haxy magicians and I would love to see them, it's the stupid rule of "peers must be able to compete with shounen protagonist" that annoys me.

(Also this is just a theory but if Tomitsuka's armour isn't something that he maintains 24/7, couldn't Tatsuya use Regrowth on it to rewind it to before it was activated ?)

[bludvein]

Give it up, the MB on the scale your talking about will never be practical. He would need the targeting aids of <Third Eye> to even target something that small. Plus, no matter how tiny it is it would be loud, possibly blinding, and produce a shockwave. Its still a bomb no matter how small. Not something you want to be anywhere near when it goes off.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by bludvein

Give it up, the MB on the scale your talking about will never be practical. He would need the targeting aids of <Third Eye> to even target something that small. Plus, no matter how tiny it is it would be loud, possibly blinding, and produce a shockwave. Its still a bomb no matter how small. Not something you want to be anywhere near when it goes off.

Well regardless of the scale etc, why do you guys keep thinking that Third Eye is necessary ?
The only thing Third Eye does is give him visual targeting since if something is kilometers away he can't see it with his own eyes and with Third Eye it lets him see it then he can use Elemental Sight from that point on to target it, if we asusme that in theory there is something that is within his vision he doesn't need Third Eye.

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Well regardless of the scale etc, why do you guys keep thinking that Third Eye is necessary ?
The only thing Third Eye does is give him visual targeting since if something is kilometers away he can't see it with his own eyes and with Third Eye it lets him see it then he can use Elemental Sight from that point on to target it, if we asusme that in theory there is something that is within his vision he doesn't need Third Eye.

Third Eye does do that, but it also has extensive aiming modifiers. The rule of thumb being that the longer the "barrel" on the CAD, the more emphasis put on the aim modifiers. Third Eye is a long ass sniper rifle, you do the math. If all Third Eye did was give him video to as a reference point to track the target through the Eidos there would be a lot easier ways.

[Waxman]

Also Tatsuya is practical, wont be a simple granade a much more simple solution? He used one against Lina, if presed to reveal a secret magic he should be able to created an explosion with flash cast.

For me the duel was in order to reintroduce Tomitsuka, tatsuya new classmate and possibly new allied when things get fisical in the next confrontation (since Erika and Leo would problaby have less screentime, beign in other class an all)

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

(Also this is just a theory but if Tomitsuka's armour isn't something that he maintains 24/7, couldn't Tatsuya use Regrowth on it to rewind it to before it was activated ?)

/facepalm

1) His Psion protection is completely natural and completely passive normally.

Originally Posted by Exact same bolded line again, for the second time

- They charge at each other as soon as the match starts. Tats uses his CAD to cast Mist Dispersion on Tomitsuka to try it out, but as suspected, it doesn't work. No one else notices what he did, but Miyuki pales. Tats uses his Elemental Sight to see that there is a thick coat/armor of psions around Tomitsuka that protects him from magic being cast directly on him. This is because since birth, Tomitsuka has had some sort of a condition/defect with his psion channeling, that causes psions to gather densely around him and causes him to be unable to use ranged magic (this is a loose summary, I skimmed the technical jargon in this chapter). [...]

2) Regrowth is considered Systematic Magic and only makes sense when applied to an Information Body. You can't use Systematic Magic to affect Psions. That's the whole point of the Non-Systematic Magic category.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rava

/facepalm

1) His Psion protection is completely natural and completely passive normally.


2) Regrowth is considered Systematic Magic and only makes sense when applied to an Information Body. You can't use Systematic Magic to affect Psions. That's the whole point of the Non-Systematic Magic category.

Euh well that's kind of weird if he can maintain it 24/7 isn't ? even in his sleep but ok.
As for Regrowth affecting the armour or not, isn't regrowth the reverse of decomposition which did work against the armour after he started gathering the psions ?(it was still made of psions)

[whsie]

A lot of this discussion can be cleared up with more detailed reading (i.e. fact checking) or in some cases, more detailed explanation by the author (there's both).

As for the whole thing about Tats and nerfs. There isn't much around it. The dude is nerfed by the author by various methods to rebalance the story. IMO, it's likely that as the scale of the events enlarge, the author will gradually take off more and more of Tats' limitations/restrictions. It's like playing a RPG with a level 90 character in the prologue. As the chapters go by and the skill of the enemies increase, the gap between the MC and the enemies will shorten. To make it at least a playable game, the producer would have to limit many, many things to make a level 90 character on the same plain as a level 25 boss.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rava

/facepalm

1) His Psion protection is completely natural and completely passive normally.


2) Regrowth is considered Systematic Magic and only makes sense when applied to an Information Body. You can't use Systematic Magic to affect Psions. That's the whole point of the Non-Systematic Magic category.

Where did it say that Regrowth was systematic?

[Rava]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

Where did it say that Regrowth was systematic?

It affects an Eidos. By definition it has to be Systematic.

Magics that affect Psions by definition have to be Non-Systematic.

Another is a magic that does not aim to alter phenomena by temporarily rewriting the body of information associated with phenomena, "Eidos", but aims to control the Psion itself; this is known as Non-Systematic Magic.

The only example you gave of Systematic Magic affecting Psions directly was a) misinterpreted due to weird language and b) confirmed wrong later in Volume 4 by direct comment when Mari and Mayumi reflected on it when watching Shizuku use Resonance, the actual Systematic Magic version of what Tatsuya did.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by Rava

/facepalm

1) His Psion protection is completely natural and completely passive normally.


2) Regrowth is considered Systematic Magic and only makes sense when applied to an Information Body. You can't use Systematic Magic to affect Psions. That's the whole point of the Non-Systematic Magic category.

I don't think regrowth is systematic magic at all. Regrowth work with the concept of recovering data to 24 hours ago. When try to match, i does not match to any 4 great system. Also BS magician abilities are consider unique because it contains personal classification. That's why it cannot be replicate because it did not have building block.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by NoLife222

I don't think regrowth is systematic magic at all. Regrowth work with the concept of recovering data to 24 hours ago. When try to match, i does not match to any 4 great system. Also BS magician abilities are consider unique because it contains personal classification. That's why it cannot be replicate because it did not have building block.

No, Regrowth works on the concept of using an older copy of an Eidos. Rephrasing it as data is partly what's dissuading you.

Originally Posted by From Volume 4, Chapter 12

He backtracked through the changes in the Eidos and obtained the one an instant before any injuries occurred and then copied that.
He copied that information onto the Magic Sequence and applied it to the Eidos.

Anything that affects Eidos, directly or indirectly (like Cardinal Codes), is considered Systematic Magic. When reading Volume 1, Chapter 2, the reader is shown that Modern Magic affects Eidos. Then, in Volume 1, Chapter 5, you are then given the three exception categories: ESP Magic, Non-Systematic Magic, and External Systematic Magic, none of which affect Eidos.

Regrowth does not fit in those three categories, therefore it is Systematic Magic.

Just remember that just because something is Systematic Magic, doesn't mean it's easy to classify what parts of which category are being used (unless the author tells us, like with Decomposition).

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

[...]
As for Regrowth affecting the armour or not, isn't regrowth the reverse of decomposition which did work against the armour after he started gathering the psions ?(it was still made of psions)

He used Gram Dispersion. Gram Dispersion is Non-Systematic Magic. Of course it worked on Psions.

[NoLife222]

Originally Posted by Rava

No, Regrowth works on the concept of using an older copy of an Eidos. Rephrasing it as data is partly what's dissuading you.



Anything that affects Eidos, directly or indirectly (like Cardinal Codes), is considered Systematic Magic. When reading Volume 1, Chapter 2, the reader is shown that Modern Magic affects Eidos. Then, in Volume 1, Chapter 5, you are then given the three exception categories: ESP Magic, Non-Systematic Magic, and External Systematic Magic, none of which affect Eidos.

Regrowth does not fit in those three categories, therefore it is Systematic Magic.

Just remember that just because something is Systematic Magic, doesn't mean it's easy to classify what parts of which category are being used (unless the author tells us, like with Decomposition).

Then Data fortification is under systematic magic as well? But i though spirit magic (outer-systematic) affect Eidos (indirectly)?