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Ledgem · 2005-12-29, 17:52

I've contributed to seemingly dozens of these types of threads before; now it's my turn =)

Though I have a fairly good idea of what I want, I want to be sure that I'm not messing up. The intensive task that I plan to use my system for is 3D rendering and animation; if the hardware handles that nicely, it can handle my other tasks just as well (which usually just consists of multitasking with numerous programs open). I am not a gamer. I am a poor college student - I'd like to keep this under $800. To aid with this, I'll be tapping a contact of one of my professors to see if I can get stuff at a greatly discounted rate. As a result, if you're going to suggest a specific model, please also suggest general brands and/or features to look for as well, since I may be limited.

I call this an upgrade because I'm just upgrading the CPU. Unfortunately, my system is so old, that I'll need to upgrade the motherboard as well. That means I'll also need new RAM and a new graphics card (I'd like to avoid AGP, though unfortunately that's what my current card is). So, I want suggestions on:
•CPU
•Motherboard
•RAM
•Graphics card

I'd like to avoid Intel, processors; even though they have a slight edge in rendering and encoding, I don't think their massive power consumption and cost warrants it. Instead, I was thinking of a mid-range Athlon X2. For RAM, I'd probably start with 1 GB, but if possible I'd like to immediately jump to 2 GB dual-channel, with the intent of upgrading to 4 GB later. For motherboards, it's been a few months since I looked over reviews, but I have a bias toward nForce 4-based boards.

The big question is in the graphics card. In terms of rendering it seems to me that the RAM and CPU are the most important factors regarding both render times and program performance (how nicely the program behaves while you're actually modeling). However, I've heard conflicting reports regarding the role of the video card in the rendering process. Since I'm not a gamer, I was thinking of skimping on the video card and getting basically the cheapest PCI-Express card I could find (which would probably still be worlds better than my current GeForce 4). However, if the card is more important than I give credit for, I would consider taking money away from the RAM and putting it toward a card. Specifically, I looked over the lower-end nVidia Quadros, and that might be budgetable (not the thousand-dollar higher end ones).

All suggestions are welcome, thanks for giving me some thought.

iluid · 2005-12-29, 18:26

This isn’t really a suggestion, but might be useful. I’m pretty much in the same situation as you where I need to replace just about everything to do a decent upgrade. In planning this upgrade though, it came to my attention that AMD will be switching to a new socket format in the spring (to socket AM2 a.k.a. socket M2). How much this matters depends on how often you plan to upgrade I guess, but for me it’s enough to put off my upgrade till late spring or summer. If you upgrade now, there won’t be much room to grow and you’ll probably have to buy a new motherboard and RAM the next time you want to upgrade. If you don’t plan on upgrading much for a few years, this won’t really matter much, but if you want room to grow at more frequent intervals, then you might want to wait. The biggest difference in the new M2 platform will be DDR2 RAM. I haven’t read enough about DDR2 to know if it’s really worth waiting for (I’m waiting so I can get a few CPU only upgrades out of the board), but it’s something to consider.

Lexander · 2005-12-29, 18:44

My current setup will cost you just about 800.

CPU $320
EVGA SLI Motherboard + 7800GT for $380 (it is a rebranded jetway motherboard with decent overclocking ability ... and it comes free with the video card combo deal)
Lifetime warranty on both. The card warrantly even covers nonphysically overclocked cards. My GT is running a little below stock GTX speeds.

Ram ... I use value ram ... $60 bucks for 1 gig dual channel

And I cranked up my cpu a bit

http://www.cynicalex.com/CPUZscreencaps.png

with the right ram(certain revitions of corsair xms) I could do the same with the RAM running 1:1 instead of 5:4 devider. This cpu caps out at around 260 even with water cooling ... so I'm pretty happy with my results.

But that extra 4 fps in games with good ram would do nothing for you ... value ram is good enough and for it's price it's decently fast.

This cpu rapes the intel equal btw ... and dualcore intel chips are known to overheat and throttle under stress(lol some people say theirs idles at 63 degrees C). I've yet to see mine hit 43 degrees even when I was running 2 stress tests at the same time. (prime95 , OCCT)

Recently this cpu was actually being sold on DELL small businesses of all places for $280. You might look into that ... dell deals come back sometimes.

Whatever you do though ... wait till February. Price drops like woah.
My recommendation is more ... to give you an idea what's out there.

The Toledo chips overclock better than the Manchester ones I hear. The first generation dualrcore AMD chips, as good as they are, are not as quality as the Toledo ones.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103547

BTW overclocking is not this complicated process that only creepy gamer dudes can comprehend ...
You read a little about it ... you change a few bios settings ... check your system stability. You get more out of stock ... I don't see why not ... it's there for the taking.

grey_moon · 2005-12-29, 20:37

*Slightly Off Topic*
If its 3d rendering you are into, then maybe a cheap render farm is something to consider. With lots of people upgrading to 64bit and DDR2, there should be plenty of old 32 bit processors, mobo and DDR out there which you should be able to get dirt cheap. I guess the only problem really is feeding and housing it.

Shadowlord · 2005-12-30, 02:42

grey_moon has an excellent suggestion. The only problem there is all the computers will need to be networked correctly (not too difficult). You will also need enough space to set these computers up and while they are renderring you will not be abe to use any of them.

If you go for a single solution (which is what I would do) I would grab yourself:

Athlon 64 X2 3800+ - 4200+

OR

Opteron 148 - 170

For a motherboard many people will notice I recommend the DFI Lanparty Series and I will continue that trend. You mentioned you didnt really want to go Nforce 4 however I highly recommend you do. Not only is the Nforce chipset a better overclocker, its features are more well rounded and the drivers more mature.

For memory you don't necessarily need high end ram, but in this case I would go with something a little better than the standard stuff for the simple reason of the increased bandwidth. Any medium level OCZ, Corsair or Mushkin will do fine.

For a video card I would I recommend a low - mid range Quadro like you were thinking of. The Quadro, while more expensive, has its hardware optimized specifically for your task. When it comes to renderring, believe me, you want all the optimizations you can get. I cannot really recommend a specific model here as I have not used any of the newer ones.

grey_moon · 2005-12-30, 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlord

grey_moon has an excellent suggestion. The only problem there is all the computers will need to be networked correctly (not too difficult). You will also need enough space to set these computers up and while they are renderring you will not be abe to use any of them.

In terms of space and housing it I had to put something like this together once, and the initial idea I had was to get a lunch trolley type thing where people stack lunch trays and attach the mobos to each tray making a adhoc rack.

Got as far as looking for PSUs that could handle multiple mobos, but I ended up getting funding to get a 8 node Dell rack. Have to say in someways I regret not insisting that I cobbled together my own.

In regards to if the nodes are dedicated or not, thats depends on how you cluster them. Something like Condor can be setup to only use a node when its free (imagine if you have access to a lab of PCs...) and if I remember correctly LightWave allows you to do something along this line, but it is bleeping expensive, well unless you "Join the Dark Side Luke".

Personally if I took this project on I would go for a ready made solution with Pov-Ray like Open Mosix or something like that.

http://www.openmosixview.com/makemovie/

Lexander · 2005-12-30, 03:27

DFI boards are kinda pricey though. Their cheapest NF4 board is about 130$ ... but like Shadowlord said ... they can do some insane overclocks.

OCZ Plat rev.2 ram with DFI boards = push your cpu to it's absolute max.

But ... with value ram ... it's like throwing away all this money into a motherboard that won't be able to overclock either way because value ram won't even post at a 240 (1:1 devider, 2T) overclock. At it's not stable at anything over 225.

Ledgem · 2005-12-30, 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluid

In planning this upgrade though, it came to my attention that AMD will be switching to a new socket format in the spring (to socket AM2 a.k.a. socket M2). How much this matters depends on how often you plan to upgrade I guess, but for me it’s enough to put off my upgrade till late spring or summer.

Thanks for mentioning that; I'd heard of the socket M2 but wasn't sure of its release schedule. I'd be enticed to go for that, but realistically speaking, my upgrade schedule seems too slow to benefit from that. My desktop is still a Socket A; it's been anywhere from five to seven years now (2006, after all) since its creation. So, looking at my upgrade track record, I think I upgrade slowly enough that I'd need to purchase all of the core components over again anyway.

With regard to DDR2 memory, I've heard that the performance gains are very minimal. People were hoping that AMD would skip DDR2 and go to DDR3 whenever it's conceived.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexander

Whatever you do though ... wait till February. Price drops like woah.

I can wait, but what's the event that'll cause the price drops? Is it the release of the socket M2 processors that iluid mentioned?

As for overclocking, I'd never really considered it before. I don't want to have to worry about instability or heat issues. Your points are true, though - and I remember reading something about how companies often release chips clocked lower simply to guarantee fewer failures, even though the chips are capable of more (something along those lines). If the process is easier on the newer chips, I'll look into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymoon

*Slightly Off Topic*
If its 3d rendering you are into, then maybe a cheap render farm is something to consider.

I like the idea of a render farm, or even just using another computer as a render slave. I'm not too sure about the mechanics of setting up systems to work together, though - Shadowlord also mentioned that while they're working, you can't use any of them. I presume it isn't as simple as putting them on the same network and configuring the network render option in the program.

As I mentioned, I'm just a college student, so space is limited. What I would consider doing would be to use my current desktop as a secondary system (I still have its old case; it'd just need a hard drive, of which I currently have three). I don't know that it's even feasible to build a render "farm" with just two linked systems, where one is that slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlord

... You mentioned you didnt really want to go Nforce 4 however I highly recommend you do. Not only is the Nforce chipset a better overclocker, its features are more well rounded and the drivers more mature.
...
For a video card I would I recommend a low - mid range Quadro like you were thinking of. The Quadro, while more expensive, has its hardware optimized specifically for your task. When it comes to renderring, believe me, you want all the optimizations you can get. I cannot really recommend a specific model here as I have not used any of the newer ones.

I worded the nForce bit strangely, I have a bias to nForce 4's, not against

So what you've said about the nForce 4 is quite reassuring.

Do you have an idea of how heavily the video card ties into performance? I know nVidia also has their special Gelato drivers for the Quadros, but they're incredibly expensive and I'd probably never use them.

//

I also forgot to mention that it'd probably be a good idea up upgrade my PSU as well. For this processor type, what would the recommended power rating be?

Jinto · 2005-12-30, 08:31

For 3D Rendering I'ld suggest the Renderfarm too (it might require lots of electrical power - but you can build minimal systems, that won't need that much of power. Since rendering is a job that can be done very easily parallel it would be a waste to invest money in 1 uber system, when 3 normal minimal systems are even faster).

For 3D Design/Animation. I'ld suggest an Opteron System with a Wildcat Realizm 800 from 3Dlabs

Quote:

640 MB on-board
PCI Express
Genlocking Optional
512-bit DDR3 memory interface

You'll notice that this graphics board is very expensive (round about 1700€ without tax) Afaik this card fully supports OpenGL 2.0 and DirectX 9 HLSL (fully programmable).
That means you won't have much systemload while handling large (vertex count) models with OpenGL compliant Software (XSI, Maya, Max...)
This graphicsboard is build to outperform every normal processor driven solution (because it is an advanced vector machine computing the OpenGL stuff in a superscalar multi arithmetic unit multiprocessor architecture).
The actual CPU (Opteron) just takes care of the main 3D application routines and the Systemroutines.

But I am not sure, if you really need such a workstation (unless you really want to go professional... then you certainly need a professional solution

)

There are cheaper graphic boards out there... but it won't make much sense to invest money into mid or low range OpenGL solutions (its just not worth the money, than I'ld rather say you stick with a cheap normal graphics board).
Even the very high end solutions are useless for rendering, because rendering is done almost entirely in the CPU. Design and animation of complex models however, requires lots of power while drawing the views in the 3D application.... that and low quality hardware testrenderings are the main reason why highend graphics board are used.

Lexander · 2005-12-30, 16:56

Socket M2 will drop the prices for everything else.

And in January prices all around drop. New stuff usually becomes available around then. You're so close you might as well wait ...

btw ... how exactly do renderfarms work? I'm having a hard time picturing it. Are they easy to configure?

Jinto · 2005-12-30, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexander

Socket M2 will drop the prices for everything else.

And in January prices all around drop. New stuff usually becomes available around then. You're so close you might as well wait ...

btw ... how exactly do renderfarms work? I'm having a hard time picturing it. Are they easy to configure?

I.e. for 3DS Max it is quiet easy. You need to have a netrenderer installed on each machine in a working high performance LAN. That will result in a render cluster. Despite of just rendering each frame of an animation the main machine spreads the render task over all the machines via netrendering. So each machine renders frames according to their speed. If only one image (still) is to be rendered it can be clustered into tiny pieces, which then are processed like the frames in an animation.

Ledgem · 2006-02-05, 18:25

It's been a while, but I'd like a final bit of advice. Since this post I've stopped dreaming big, and realized that practically any upgrade would feel like a top of the line computer to me at this point. (I'm getting sick of my system lagging on Japanese emails and such.)

Since I'm just a poor college student, I figure a poor college student system fits me and what I use my computer for at this moment. I'd like opinions and advice on the following upgrades (time sensitive):

Sempron 3100+ & ECS nForce-3 Motherboard :: $90
Mushkin 1 GB Dual Channel DDR RAM :: $75
With that motherboard, I can keep my current graphics card. I think I can also get by without upgrading my PSU, which is 250w (I think - it's definitely not over 300). I didn't want to have to spend money on RAM, but my current RAM is 168-pin SDRAM - not compatible with that motherboard.

The system is Socket 754, and I've heard that dual channel RAM isn't so great for systems like that. I can't find much of a better deal for RAM, though; unless I want to go into house/generic brands.

The processor should be a Paris core Sempron. It seems that people who order from that deal get mixed stuff; some have 90 nm ones, while others get the 130um ones. Some seem to have the 64-bit extension, others don't. It doesn't matter; even a 130um lacking 64-bit support would be worlds better to me. I'd like to get 2 GB of RAM ideally (the system's max) but 1 GB DDR will definitely feel much better than my current 640 MB PC133.

I'd also perhaps like to try overclocking such a setup a bit, though overclockers find that motherboard to be pretty limiting for heavy overclocking. I'd only do light overclocking anyway.

Finally, I've heard that this setup only comes with the processor and motherboard - no heatsink/fan. Does anyone have any recommendations for that? I was thinking something like this, but possibly purchased off of ebay, depending on how the shipping worked out there. I just want something that'll be reliable, cheap, and not too noisy.

Thanks in advance for any remarks!

reflection · 2006-02-05, 21:13

The cpu/motherboard package is certainly a deal, but there's quite a lack of information for the product on that site. Also, those reviews you mentioned that have mixed results (and, mixed products as well) doesn't leave that great of an impression. As for the ram, I'd go with some of this for a few bucks more. The hsf you can go for something such as this or better performance and more quiet, although more expensive, like a Zalman.

I would also suggest that you might want to do something with your power supply. Those 3D rendering/animation applications are rather intensive and run for some extensive time, so better stability may be something you should be going for if you intend to do a little overclocking and performing the task that you do.

Ledgem · 2006-02-06, 01:12

With the Sempron setup I probably won't be doing any heavy 3D rendering. It'd just be something to let me not have to wait those extra seconds for my email to load up, or for the processor to go to full load while rendering a webpage.

For the RAM I actually found a better option. It isn't dual channel, but it's a 1 GB Geil block for $66 after rebate. That'd also let me reach the 2 GB maximum later on. Again, the downside is that it won't let me do dual-channel, but I think that for overall system performance having 2 GB of non-dual channel would be better than having 1 GB of dual-channel. Other benefit is that it's also from Outpost; hence, I can save on shipping a bit.

Thanks for the recommendation on the heatsink, the price is similar to the other one; I'll look into those

Ledgem · 2006-02-07, 20:02

OK, I've just purchased the board+CPU (sempron setup: Sempron 3100+ with an ECS nForce3-A motherboard) along with the GEIL 1 GB block of RAM, after reading a number of opinions that dual channel RAM's benefits are only in certain situations and don't stand up against having more RAM overall. The next question deals with the power supply and the cooling system.

I haven't purchased the heatsink+fan yet, but I'm not really worried about that. What I am concerned about is mounting it. Specifically, do I really need the cooling grease (something like "Arctic Silver")? I mean, this is a Sempron, not a Pentium 4... but I've never done processor installation before, so I don't really know (how exciting!) Where would I buy that?

The second issue is the PSU. As I mentioned above, my PSU is likely a 250watt; it can't be over 300. Do I absolutely need to upgrade it? If so, what to? This upgrade is essentially just to let me comfortably sit through a few more tech cycles before I REALLY upgrade; I don't plan to keep the PSU around with the next upgrade. What's the cheapest I can get away with, if it's really necessary at all?

Shadowlord · 2006-02-08, 13:59

I would upgrade the PSU if at all possible. The reason for this isnt really because its only 250 watts, but because it is most likely a generic PSU that will have instability under heavy loads. When you render, it creates alot of heat and the components are all working at 100% capacity, therebye drawing a large, continuous amount of power from the PSU. If you have a crappy PSU it may not be stable under heavy loads.

Hiko Seijuro · 2006-02-08, 16:08

Cooling grease is supplied with the cpu. As for the psu, i would recommend something of the Antec range, reliable and quite. btw dont go too cheap, shadowlord has a point.

i recommend www.ebuyer.com this is where i buy my components and build my pc from (uk version)

Ledgem · 2006-02-08, 20:25

Shadowlord you are correct in stating that it's a generic PSU; it came with my case when I upgraded it (I upgraded to a Fong Kai; the HP Pavilion case couldn't close completely when I upgraded my graphics card to a GeForce 4, if you can believe it). I believe it's made by a company called Enhance - I've never heard of them, so I presume they're nothing special.

This isn't an upgrade to allow me to render. I'm accepting that for the time being I probably won't have the time to render, so I'd rather do what I do most with no delays (namely: email, light graphics editing, video playback, light encoding). According to Enhance's website and what I suspect my PSU model is, I may be coming close to its operating lifetime. I am open to a PSU upgrade suggestion, but I hadn't planned for it originally and I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible. I want something reliable - that's all. What power rating would any of you recommend? 300 as the bare minimum, I presume.

Just a rundown of the stuff I have in my system that draws power: One case fan, three hard drives (I'd love to upgrade to more), three optical drives (only two are receiving power - my current one doesn't have enough plugs to power three HDs and three CD devices), and my graphics card is a GeForce 4 Ti. The new system is an nForce3A-based motherboard, and the processor is a Sempron 3100+. The RAM is clocked at 400 MHz (PC3200 DDR RAM), and currently there'll only be one stick.

In addition to the power rating, by way of manufacturers I know Antec is a recommended brand - any others?

Hiko_Seijuro I'll see if thermal grease comes with the CPU when it arrives, but this is a special bundle - the processor isn't in its retail box. From what I've read from other people who have bought it, it doesn't ship with a heatsink+fan, either. Hence, I have reason to believe that it won't come with any thermal grease. So, assuming it doesn't, will any thermal grease work, or do I need a special type based on what HSF I choose? Thanks for the link, too - they only list one PSU that I can find, a 450-watt Antec that looks pretty nice, but is still more money than I'd like to pay ($53). Ideally I'd love it if it weren't above $20, but that's unrealistic, I know. Under $40 would be the best...

I can afford to wait a bit now; there was a rush to order the CPU/Motherboard before the deal expired at the end of the week, and the RAM, as well, which had a rebate that expires... tomorrow. But, those are fine, so now waiting to order the HSF and the PSU just delays installation and reinstalling Windows.

Hiko Seijuro · 2006-02-09, 04:32

Any thermal grease should work just fine, btw looked at the American ebuyer site and it seemed a bit empty, try looking at the UK site, see any psu you like? then look for it on an American site.

Shadowlord · 2006-02-09, 14:17

Antec
Enermax
OCZ
Fortron/Sparkle (same company)

are all great picks brand wise for PSU. I would suggest somethine around 380-420 watts if possible since you will want to have a large upgrade path in the future (you mentioned wanting to add more HDD's later)

as for your thermal grease question, yes, any will work, but its generally accepted that you will see better results from Arctic Silver/OCZ 5

if your CPU doesnt come with a heatsink (which it probably wont considering its OEM) then you have a few choices and some research to do. Basically, u will want to read a couple reviews on ur MOBO to see if there are and spacing or obstruction problems that might cause problems with larger heatsinks.

2005-12-29, 17:52	Link #1
Ledgem Love Yourself Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast USA Age: 38	Computer Upgrade Suggestions I've contributed to seemingly dozens of these types of threads before; now it's my turn =) Though I have a fairly good idea of what I want, I want to be sure that I'm not messing up. The intensive task that I plan to use my system for is 3D rendering and animation; if the hardware handles that nicely, it can handle my other tasks just as well (which usually just consists of multitasking with numerous programs open). I am not a gamer. I am a poor college student - I'd like to keep this under $800. To aid with this, I'll be tapping a contact of one of my professors to see if I can get stuff at a greatly discounted rate. As a result, if you're going to suggest a specific model, please also suggest general brands and/or features to look for as well, since I may be limited. I call this an upgrade because I'm just upgrading the CPU. Unfortunately, my system is so old, that I'll need to upgrade the motherboard as well. That means I'll also need new RAM and a new graphics card (I'd like to avoid AGP, though unfortunately that's what my current card is). So, I want suggestions on: •CPU •Motherboard •RAM •Graphics card I'd like to avoid Intel, processors; even though they have a slight edge in rendering and encoding, I don't think their massive power consumption and cost warrants it. Instead, I was thinking of a mid-range Athlon X2. For RAM, I'd probably start with 1 GB, but if possible I'd like to immediately jump to 2 GB dual-channel, with the intent of upgrading to 4 GB later. For motherboards, it's been a few months since I looked over reviews, but I have a bias toward nForce 4-based boards. The big question is in the graphics card. In terms of rendering it seems to me that the RAM and CPU are the most important factors regarding both render times and program performance (how nicely the program behaves while you're actually modeling). However, I've heard conflicting reports regarding the role of the video card in the rendering process. Since I'm not a gamer, I was thinking of skimping on the video card and getting basically the cheapest PCI-Express card I could find (which would probably still be worlds better than my current GeForce 4). However, if the card is more important than I give credit for, I would consider taking money away from the RAM and putting it toward a card. Specifically, I looked over the lower-end nVidia Quadros, and that might be budgetable (not the thousand-dollar higher end ones). All suggestions are welcome, thanks for giving me some thought. __________________ Last edited by Ledgem; 2006-02-05 at 20:03.

2005-12-29, 18:44	Link #3
Lexander www.thefestlanders.com Join Date: Dec 2003	My current setup will cost you just about 800. CPU $320 EVGA SLI Motherboard + 7800GT for $380 (it is a rebranded jetway motherboard with decent overclocking ability ... and it comes free with the video card combo deal) Lifetime warranty on both. The card warrantly even covers nonphysically overclocked cards. My GT is running a little below stock GTX speeds. Ram ... I use value ram ... $60 bucks for 1 gig dual channel And I cranked up my cpu a bit http://www.cynicalex.com/CPUZscreencaps.png with the right ram(certain revitions of corsair xms) I could do the same with the RAM running 1:1 instead of 5:4 devider. This cpu caps out at around 260 even with water cooling ... so I'm pretty happy with my results. But that extra 4 fps in games with good ram would do nothing for you ... value ram is good enough and for it's price it's decently fast. This cpu rapes the intel equal btw ... and dualcore intel chips are known to overheat and throttle under stress(lol some people say theirs idles at 63 degrees C). I've yet to see mine hit 43 degrees even when I was running 2 stress tests at the same time. (prime95 , OCCT) Recently this cpu was actually being sold on DELL small businesses of all places for $280. You might look into that ... dell deals come back sometimes. Whatever you do though ... wait till February. Price drops like woah. My recommendation is more ... to give you an idea what's out there. The Toledo chips overclock better than the Manchester ones I hear. The first generation dualrcore AMD chips, as good as they are, are not as quality as the Toledo ones. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103547 BTW overclocking is not this complicated process that only creepy gamer dudes can comprehend ... You read a little about it ... you change a few bios settings ... check your system stability. You get more out of stock ... I don't see why not ... it's there for the taking. Last edited by Lexander; 2005-12-29 at 19:16.

2006-02-05, 18:25	Link #12
Ledgem Love Yourself Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast USA Age: 38	It's been a while, but I'd like a final bit of advice. Since this post I've stopped dreaming big, and realized that practically any upgrade would feel like a top of the line computer to me at this point. (I'm getting sick of my system lagging on Japanese emails and such.) Since I'm just a poor college student, I figure a poor college student system fits me and what I use my computer for at this moment. I'd like opinions and advice on the following upgrades (time sensitive): Sempron 3100+ & ECS nForce-3 Motherboard :: $90 Mushkin 1 GB Dual Channel DDR RAM :: $75 With that motherboard, I can keep my current graphics card. I think I can also get by without upgrading my PSU, which is 250w (I think - it's definitely not over 300). I didn't want to have to spend money on RAM, but my current RAM is 168-pin SDRAM - not compatible with that motherboard. The system is Socket 754, and I've heard that dual channel RAM isn't so great for systems like that. I can't find much of a better deal for RAM, though; unless I want to go into house/generic brands. The processor should be a Paris core Sempron. It seems that people who order from that deal get mixed stuff; some have 90 nm ones, while others get the 130um ones. Some seem to have the 64-bit extension, others don't. It doesn't matter; even a 130um lacking 64-bit support would be worlds better to me. I'd like to get 2 GB of RAM ideally (the system's max) but 1 GB DDR will definitely feel much better than my current 640 MB PC133. I'd also perhaps like to try overclocking such a setup a bit, though overclockers find that motherboard to be pretty limiting for heavy overclocking. I'd only do light overclocking anyway. Finally, I've heard that this setup only comes with the processor and motherboard - no heatsink/fan. Does anyone have any recommendations for that? I was thinking something like this, but possibly purchased off of ebay, depending on how the shipping worked out there. I just want something that'll be reliable, cheap, and not too noisy. Thanks in advance for any remarks! __________________

2006-02-05, 21:13	Link #13
reflection gyabo!~ Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Canada	The cpu/motherboard package is certainly a deal, but there's quite a lack of information for the product on that site. Also, those reviews you mentioned that have mixed results (and, mixed products as well) doesn't leave that great of an impression. As for the ram, I'd go with some of this for a few bucks more. The hsf you can go for something such as this or better performance and more quiet, although more expensive, like a Zalman. I would also suggest that you might want to do something with your power supply. Those 3D rendering/animation applications are rather intensive and run for some extensive time, so better stability may be something you should be going for if you intend to do a little overclocking and performing the task that you do. __________________ Last edited by reflection; 2006-02-05 at 22:23.

2006-02-06, 01:12	Link #14
Ledgem Love Yourself Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast USA Age: 38	With the Sempron setup I probably won't be doing any heavy 3D rendering. It'd just be something to let me not have to wait those extra seconds for my email to load up, or for the processor to go to full load while rendering a webpage. For the RAM I actually found a better option. It isn't dual channel, but it's a 1 GB Geil block for $66 after rebate. That'd also let me reach the 2 GB maximum later on. Again, the downside is that it won't let me do dual-channel, but I think that for overall system performance having 2 GB of non-dual channel would be better than having 1 GB of dual-channel. Other benefit is that it's also from Outpost; hence, I can save on shipping a bit. Thanks for the recommendation on the heatsink, the price is similar to the other one; I'll look into those __________________

2005-12-29, 18:26	Link #2
iluid Member Join Date: Feb 2004	This isn’t really a suggestion, but might be useful. I’m pretty much in the same situation as you where I need to replace just about everything to do a decent upgrade. In planning this upgrade though, it came to my attention that AMD will be switching to a new socket format in the spring (to socket AM2 a.k.a. socket M2). How much this matters depends on how often you plan to upgrade I guess, but for me it’s enough to put off my upgrade till late spring or summer. If you upgrade now, there won’t be much room to grow and you’ll probably have to buy a new motherboard and RAM the next time you want to upgrade. If you don’t plan on upgrading much for a few years, this won’t really matter much, but if you want room to grow at more frequent intervals, then you might want to wait. The biggest difference in the new M2 platform will be DDR2 RAM. I haven’t read enough about DDR2 to know if it’s really worth waiting for (I’m waiting so I can get a few CPU only upgrades out of the board), but it’s something to consider.

2005-12-29, 20:37	Link #4
grey_moon Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!! Join Date: Dec 2004	Slightly Off Topic If its 3d rendering you are into, then maybe a cheap render farm is something to consider. With lots of people upgrading to 64bit and DDR2, there should be plenty of old 32 bit processors, mobo and DDR out there which you should be able to get dirt cheap. I guess the only problem really is feeding and housing it.

2005-12-30, 02:42	Link #5
Shadowlord ~DESU Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada eh? Age: 37	grey_moon has an excellent suggestion. The only problem there is all the computers will need to be networked correctly (not too difficult). You will also need enough space to set these computers up and while they are renderring you will not be abe to use any of them. If you go for a single solution (which is what I would do) I would grab yourself: Athlon 64 X2 3800+ - 4200+ OR Opteron 148 - 170 For a motherboard many people will notice I recommend the DFI Lanparty Series and I will continue that trend. You mentioned you didnt really want to go Nforce 4 however I highly recommend you do. Not only is the Nforce chipset a better overclocker, its features are more well rounded and the drivers more mature. For memory you don't necessarily need high end ram, but in this case I would go with something a little better than the standard stuff for the simple reason of the increased bandwidth. Any medium level OCZ, Corsair or Mushkin will do fine. For a video card I would I recommend a low - mid range Quadro like you were thinking of. The Quadro, while more expensive, has its hardware optimized specifically for your task. When it comes to renderring, believe me, you want all the optimizations you can get. I cannot really recommend a specific model here as I have not used any of the newer ones.

2005-12-30, 03:27	Link #7
Lexander www.thefestlanders.com Join Date: Dec 2003	DFI boards are kinda pricey though. Their cheapest NF4 board is about 130$ ... but like Shadowlord said ... they can do some insane overclocks. OCZ Plat rev.2 ram with DFI boards = push your cpu to it's absolute max. But ... with value ram ... it's like throwing away all this money into a motherboard that won't be able to overclock either way because value ram won't even post at a 240 (1:1 devider, 2T) overclock. At it's not stable at anything over 225.

2005-12-30, 16:56	Link #10
Lexander www.thefestlanders.com Join Date: Dec 2003	Socket M2 will drop the prices for everything else. And in January prices all around drop. New stuff usually becomes available around then. You're so close you might as well wait ... btw ... how exactly do renderfarms work? I'm having a hard time picturing it. Are they easy to configure?

2006-02-07, 20:02	Link #15
Ledgem Love Yourself Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast USA Age: 38	OK, I've just purchased the board+CPU (sempron setup: Sempron 3100+ with an ECS nForce3-A motherboard) along with the GEIL 1 GB block of RAM, after reading a number of opinions that dual channel RAM's benefits are only in certain situations and don't stand up against having more RAM overall. The next question deals with the power supply and the cooling system. I haven't purchased the heatsink+fan yet, but I'm not really worried about that. What I am concerned about is mounting it. Specifically, do I really need the cooling grease (something like "Arctic Silver")? I mean, this is a Sempron, not a Pentium 4... but I've never done processor installation before, so I don't really know (how exciting!) Where would I buy that? The second issue is the PSU. As I mentioned above, my PSU is likely a 250watt; it can't be over 300. Do I absolutely need to upgrade it? If so, what to? This upgrade is essentially just to let me comfortably sit through a few more tech cycles before I REALLY upgrade; I don't plan to keep the PSU around with the next upgrade. What's the cheapest I can get away with, if it's really necessary at all? __________________

2006-02-08, 13:59	Link #16
Shadowlord ~DESU Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada eh? Age: 37	I would upgrade the PSU if at all possible. The reason for this isnt really because its only 250 watts, but because it is most likely a generic PSU that will have instability under heavy loads. When you render, it creates alot of heat and the components are all working at 100% capacity, therebye drawing a large, continuous amount of power from the PSU. If you have a crappy PSU it may not be stable under heavy loads.

2006-02-08, 16:08	Link #17
Hiko Seijuro Rurouni Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: london Age: 38	Cooling grease is supplied with the cpu. As for the psu, i would recommend something of the Antec range, reliable and quite. btw dont go too cheap, shadowlord has a point. i recommend www.ebuyer.com this is where i buy my components and build my pc from (uk version)

2006-02-08, 20:25	Link #18
Ledgem Love Yourself Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast USA Age: 38	Shadowlord you are correct in stating that it's a generic PSU; it came with my case when I upgraded it (I upgraded to a Fong Kai; the HP Pavilion case couldn't close completely when I upgraded my graphics card to a GeForce 4, if you can believe it). I believe it's made by a company called Enhance - I've never heard of them, so I presume they're nothing special. This isn't an upgrade to allow me to render. I'm accepting that for the time being I probably won't have the time to render, so I'd rather do what I do most with no delays (namely: email, light graphics editing, video playback, light encoding). According to Enhance's website and what I suspect my PSU model is, I may be coming close to its operating lifetime. I am open to a PSU upgrade suggestion, but I hadn't planned for it originally and I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible. I want something reliable - that's all. What power rating would any of you recommend? 300 as the bare minimum, I presume. Just a rundown of the stuff I have in my system that draws power: One case fan, three hard drives (I'd love to upgrade to more), three optical drives (only two are receiving power - my current one doesn't have enough plugs to power three HDs and three CD devices), and my graphics card is a GeForce 4 Ti. The new system is an nForce3A-based motherboard, and the processor is a Sempron 3100+. The RAM is clocked at 400 MHz (PC3200 DDR RAM), and currently there'll only be one stick. In addition to the power rating, by way of manufacturers I know Antec is a recommended brand - any others? Hiko_Seijuro I'll see if thermal grease comes with the CPU when it arrives, but this is a special bundle - the processor isn't in its retail box. From what I've read from other people who have bought it, it doesn't ship with a heatsink+fan, either. Hence, I have reason to believe that it won't come with any thermal grease. So, assuming it doesn't, will any thermal grease work, or do I need a special type based on what HSF I choose? Thanks for the link, too - they only list one PSU that I can find, a 450-watt Antec that looks pretty nice, but is still more money than I'd like to pay ($53). Ideally I'd love it if it weren't above $20, but that's unrealistic, I know. Under $40 would be the best... I can afford to wait a bit now; there was a rush to order the CPU/Motherboard before the deal expired at the end of the week, and the RAM, as well, which had a rebate that expires... tomorrow. But, those are fine, so now waiting to order the HSF and the PSU just delays installation and reinstalling Windows. __________________

2006-02-09, 04:32	Link #19
Hiko Seijuro Rurouni Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: london Age: 38	Any thermal grease should work just fine, btw looked at the American ebuyer site and it seemed a bit empty, try looking at the UK site, see any psu you like? then look for it on an American site.

2006-02-09, 14:17	Link #20
Shadowlord ~DESU Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada eh? Age: 37	Antec Enermax OCZ Fortron/Sparkle (same company) are all great picks brand wise for PSU. I would suggest somethine around 380-420 watts if possible since you will want to have a large upgrade path in the future (you mentioned wanting to add more HDD's later) as for your thermal grease question, yes, any will work, but its generally accepted that you will see better results from Arctic Silver/OCZ 5 if your CPU doesnt come with a heatsink (which it probably wont considering its OEM) then you have a few choices and some research to do. Basically, u will want to read a couple reviews on ur MOBO to see if there are and spacing or obstruction problems that might cause problems with larger heatsinks.