Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Which is pretty much the point I was making, and which Magnus and especially Tak vigorously opposed.

Again, you can't it both ways.

Again I think it depends on the series, for instance with Cardcaptor Sakura the director Morio Asaka, wouldn't do anything without Ohkawa's (the original creator's) input. In other words it pretty much varies from show to show.

That is why one cannot really say that the director had all the power in any movie, show they directed until we find out exactly how much power they really had.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Westlo

It's like being typecast, if the majority of your stuff over a period of time is one thing than guess what, even if you have done other stuff too bad! You're typecast!

You've had

Escaflowne 1996
Escaflowne Movie 2000
Arjuna 2001
Macross Zero 2002-2004
Aquarion 2005
Shanghai Dragon 2007 (short film)
Aquarion Movie 2007
Macross Frontier 2007
Macross Frontier Movie 1 2009
Macross Frontier Movie 2 2011

Guess what the majority of them fit, 6 out of 10, or 6 out of 11 if you want to add Basquash to the mix even though it was more Romain's baby.

Oh, okay. So if you cut out a portion of his work, you end up with a slightly lopsided list. Although if you cut out some shows (like the "Detective" one, or Macross 7) where he was the original creator but did little else, but add other ones (like the Escaflowne Movie), where he did the same thing, you'll also look like you're proving your point.

Present a FULL list of his works, and the results will be different.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Again I think it depends on the series, for instance with Cardcaptor Sakura the director Morio Asaka, wouldn't do anything without Ohkawa's (the original creator's) input. In other words it pretty much varies from show to show.

That is why one cannot really say that the director had all the power in any movie, show they directed until we find out exactly how much power they really had.

...which is something none of us really know. Agreed?

[Shiroth]

Doesn't matter what forum i go on, it seems impossible to dodge spoilers.

[choji]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Again I think it depends on the series, for instance with Cardcaptor Sakura the director Morio Asaka, wouldn't do anything without Ohkawa's (the original creator's) input. In other words it pretty much varies from show to show.

That is why one cannot really say that the director had all the power in any movie, show they directed until we find out exactly how much power they really had.

This is one of the few examples; CLAMP is like this, pretty much on every series of them that has been adapted into an anime.
Macross was not a manga that got adapted, so this does not stand on an equal ground.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Westlo

It's like being typecast, if the majority of your stuff over a period of time is one thing than guess what, even if you have done other stuff too bad! You're typecast!

You've had

Escaflowne 1996
Escaflowne Movie 2000
Arjuna 2001
Macross Zero 2002-2004
Aquarion 2005
Shanghai Dragon 2007 (short film)
Aquarion Movie 2007
Macross Frontier 2007
Macross Frontier Movie 1 2009
Macross Frontier Movie 2 2011

Guess what the majority of them fit, 6 out of 9 (counting the MF movies as one duh), or 6 out of 10 if you want to add Basquash to the mix even though it was more Romain's baby. And it seems you can take Arjuna's as bittersweet as well in some manner... and I doubt Aquarion 2 will be much different considering the characters if they go with the reincarnation route again.

Edit - Escaflowne Movie had the same ending as TV series right? Only seen the opening scene of that...

Kawamori wasn't that much involved with A Girl in Gaea, and that movie sucked so yeah.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

...which is something none of us really know. Agreed?

Agreed

Originally Posted by choji

This is one of the few examples; CLAMP is like this, pretty much on every series of them that has been adapted into an anime.
Macross was not a manga that got adapted, so this does not stand on an equal ground.

Not all of the time, CLAMP didn't get to provide much input for Tsubasa Chronicles (which is why it sucked, and became tedious). They don't have a hand in every one of their series that gets adapted. I don't think they had much input for the Xtv series either, or the Chobits anime, so yeah it varies.

[Westlo]

Whatever, 5 out of 8 (removing Esca movie) or 6 out of 11 (adding Mac 7+detective show) is still over half of his shows from the last 15 years have had bittersweet endings. And I'm counting Arjuna as not bittersweet and that seems arguable.

What do Macross 7, Arjuna, Shanghai Dragon, Macross Frontier + detective show have in common aside from not being bittersweet. Over 50% of his shows from the last 15 years have a common theme. People go through periods, it's clear that if you look at Tomino works from Pre Brainpowered and after brainpowered there is a difference.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Doesn't matter what forum i go on, it seems impossible to dodge spoilers.

Don't worry, I won't spoil ANYTHING about the scene where the entire cast of Macross II shows up and has a ping-pong match against the cast of Macross Generation.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Whatever, 5 out of 8 (removing Esca movie) or 6 out of 11 (adding Mac 7+detective show) is still over half of his shows from the last 15 years have had bittersweet endings. And I'm counting Arjuna as not bittersweet and that seems arguable.

What do Macross 7, Arjuna, Shanghai Dragon, Macross Frontier + detective show have in common aside from not being bittersweet. Over 50% of his shows from the last 15 years have a common theme.

Well, if you're going to pick an arbitrary date to start from, you're going to get lopsided results. I said this already.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Kawamori wasn't that much involved with A Girl in Gaea, and that movie sucked so yeah.

Agreed. I paid US$60 for a burned copy of the movie when it came out - biggest regret of my life (still is!)

[Westlo]

^ Was that for the 500 meg avi or whatever? lmao

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Well, if you're going to pick an arbitrary date to start from, you're going to get lopsided results. I said this already.

6 arguably 7 out of 17 is still a significant amount and you're ignoring that his recent shows have mostly finished the same way. If a VA went from voicing sweet onee sans for 10 years to spending the next 15 voicing mature villains guess which one she would be remembered for. (assuming no character from the first ten years eclipses the others)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Well, if you're going to pick an arbitrary date to start from, you're going to get lopsided results. I said this already.

Well, you got to start from somewhere. And if the work of the guy from the last 18 years isn't enough to get a reading where he is now...

We can all say that maybe his works before that time was less in the vein of unresolved romances / bittersweet endings, but I think the body of work of pretty much the last two decades should say something about his preferred style.

In any case, the next Macross series with Kawamoris involvement will be on probation with me, at least in the aspect of romance. You know what they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me over eighteen years, shame on me to the max. ^^

I guess I will try to focus more on the mecha aspect and universe building and on the music. I think it'll be difficult to build another character as awesome as Sheryl, anyway...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Agreed. I paid US$60 for a burned copy of the movie when it came out - biggest regret of my life (still is!)

Really I have the special edition $100 box set of the movie, complete with the actual OST (which is what I really wanted), the movie itself, and the interviews with Maaya Sakamoto.

The only bad part about the box set is the movie itself.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Westlo

6 arguably 7 out of 17 is still a significant amount and you're ignoring that his recent shows have mostly finished the same way. If a VA went from voicing sweet onee sans for 10 years to spending the next 15 voicing mature villains guess which one she would be remembered for. (assuming no character from the first ten years eclipses the others)

But that example doesn't fit. As you said yourself, only about half of Kawamori's output for the last fifteen years is "bittersweet."

(Incidentally...I don't see anything bittersweet about the ending of Macross Frontier TV. It didn't get Alto and Sheryl together in a definitive way, but it ended happily for nearly all of the good guys.)

[cheesie]

Westlo, yes, it is. You are going to point and laugh at my face anyway, so please go away.

I'm going to steal Yot-Chan from you for a moment, as nice as it is to have it re-affirmed that Animesuki Macross men will always lavish attentions on one another, no matter the reasons.

Spoiler:

Yot-Chan, I would appreciate little spoilers of intimate Alto x Sheryl moments you picked out in the movie. I know you must be quite burned out by the shipping talks, but pull through for me one last time!

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Don't worry, I won't spoil ANYTHING about the scene where the entire cast of Macross II shows up and has a ping-pong match against the cast of Macross Generation.

But that's the only scene i want to see from the movie!

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

(Incidentally...I don't see anything bittersweet about the ending of Macross Frontier TV. It didn't get Alto and Sheryl together in a definitive way, but it ended happily for nearly all of the good guys.)

Well, that is since you are ignoring my side of the argument, where I say that we only get bittersweet endings and non-resolutions.

[Westlo]

I don't count MF TV as bittersweet. My 5 out of 8 is for Zero, Esca, MFMovie, Aquariuon + Aquarion Movie, Arjuna can make that 6 out of 8... for shows he's had significant involvement in since Escaflowne...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, you got to start from somewhere. And if the work of the guy from the last 18 years isn't enough to get a reading where he is now...

I think including clear children shows (like he's going to make them bittersweet lol) and a short he worked on for a Studio C's collection are fudging the figures more than selecting the last 15 years of his career lol Not to mention that Spring and Chaos is biographical sketch of a Japanese poet.

FYI I went from 1996 and up because that was his first bittersweet anime and since than over 50% of his productions, especially ones he's had control over have had bittersweet endings.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, you got to start from somewhere. And if the work of the guy from the last 18 years isn't enough to get a reading where he is now...

We can all say that maybe his works before that time was less in the vein of unresolved romances / bittersweet endings, but I think the body of work of pretty much the last two decades should say something about his preferred style.

In any case, the next Macross series with Kawamoris involvement will be on probation with me, at least in the aspect of romance. You know what they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me over eighteen years, shame on me to the max. ^^

I guess I will try to focus more on the mecha aspect and universe building and on the music. I think it'll be difficult to build another character as awesome as Sheryl, anyway...

1996 to 2011 = two decades?

I know I'm splitting hairs here, kind of, but I think he's a creator with a variety of approaches, and so pigeonholing him as a "bittersweet" director does no one any favors...it doesn't help him, it doesn't help people who might be tempted to sample his shows.

All it does is unfairly describe his output, and turn people off who might otherwise enjoy his shows.

I dunno...maybe I'm just not gettin it. The ending of Escaflowne seemed perfectly appropriate to me, as did the ending of Frontier. I don't mind happy ending, bittersweet endings, or downright bleak and depressing endings, as long as they make sense to me in the context of the show. Macross generally does this. Even Zero wasn't impossible for me to swallow, although caused some indigestion an hour or so later.

Originally Posted by Westlo

FYI I went from 1996 and up because that was his first bittersweet anime and since than over 50% of his productions, especially ones he's had control over have had bittersweet endings.

Still seems too arbitrary to me. This might be kind of a far-fetched example, but Shakespeare started off writing comedies and histories, then wrote both comedies and tragedies for a while, and then went on to the romances. Most of his plays are comedies. But if you decide to only count the work he did after Julius Caesar (generally considered his first great tragedy), you'll say, "Oh, he's a tragedian primarily." But you'd be wrong.

Now if you want to say, "Over the last fifteen years of his thirty-two year career, half of Kawamori's shows have had bittersweet endings," fine. But that's very different from saying he's a "bittersweet director."

[Westlo]

Liking or not liking has nothing to do with it, I'm perfectly find with bittersweet endings when done well. I liked Escaflowne's and more than likely will like this one.

And people who want to watch Kawamori shows will generally watch his latest ones, which guess what? Are filled with bittersweet endings.

Edit - For above post he was primarily involved in 4 shows from 79 to Escaflowne.

Macross 82
DYRL 84
Macross Plus 94
Macross 7 94
Spring and Chaos as well I guess.. but considering what it was..

Saying I've cut half his career out sounds pretty bad... until you see the output.

Edit 2 - Lol @ this going from "Hey Ranka fans Kawamori has done bittersweet endings before deal with it" to a breakdown of how much of Kawamori's career has contained bittersweet endings.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

1996 to 2011 = two decades?

I know I'm splitting hairs here, kind of, but I think he's a creator with a variety of approaches, and so pigeonholing him as a "bittersweet" director does no one any favors...it doesn't help him, it doesn't help people who might be tempted to sample his shows.

All it does is unfairly describe his output, and turn people off who might otherwise enjoy his shows.

I dunno...maybe I'm just not gettin it. The ending of Escaflowne seemed perfectly appropriate to me, as did the ending of Frontier. I don't mind happy ending, bittersweet endings, or downright bleak and depressing endings, as long as they make sense to me in the context of the show. Macross generally does this. Even Zero wasn't impossible for me to swallow, although caused some indigestion an hour or so later.

Well, all I know that every major work of his that I've watched left me very unsatisfied with the romance aspect. About every other aspect of them is fine, but he seems to have some hang-ups about ending romances on a happy note. And, hey, I get that it's artistic licence, etc. etc.

But if every show I was emotionally invested with him at the steering wheel ended up this way, then I think I can be excused if I say that I'll be very wary of investing myself into the next romance he throws at us in whatever project of his I end up watching next. Probably the next Macross series.

And as I've said a few times today, for me the two continuities of series and movie are separate. I never connected emotionally as much with the movie as I did with the series, so the fate of movie Alto and Sheryl doesn't touch me as deeply as if it'd happened with their series counterparts. And I am still 100% sure that the fate of characters there and their romance ended up in a way I can stand fully behind.