2012-10-10, 09:35
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(Checked something I remembered. The Episode 1 manga has a continuity glitch wrt Eva's room. And the door has a vertical chain slot. Chapter 13, page 40, panel 3 vs Chapter 14, page 3, panel 1 ) And while it's possible to force the chain off the doorframe by pulling the door hard enough, it's also possible by pushing the door hard enough. It's easier to force off a chain that opens inwards because each object will be pulled in one direction, and you can get a short running start before hitting the door. And Natsuhi's door isn't mentioned as having a chain. Looking through the original VN: Do any of these mention "pulling / pushing a door open / shut" in the original Japanese? Quote:
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2012-10-10, 10:04
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Link #30802 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
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Generally speaking, doors with chain locks or door bars (the U-shaped metal pieces that flip over a center bar) always open into a room. It's certainly possible to do otherwise, you just usually don't.
And yes, I realize Natsuhi's room may not have a chain on the door. One is never mentioned specifically. However, other bedrooms in the mansion apparently do, and it's relatively unusual for a floorplan to include similar or identical rooms with different door hinge directions. Not impossible, but it's a general architectural faux pas for doors to similar rooms to swing different directions. Usually only external doors would swing outward (into the hallway instead of outside), but I can't say I'm an expert on older building design. Generally you don't have doors opening into a hallway because you don't want to obstruct the hallway. The main issue though is that most of the descriptions of the bedroom doors in the series appear to suggest that they swing inward, yet this one particular scene intimates the opposite. But I think there are better explanations than "this inconsistency is some sort of clue," such as the aforementioned notion that it was just a mistake. Ryukishi forgot an entire door exists, I'm sure he'd readily forget that doors usually only swing one direction.
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2012-10-10, 18:59
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Link #30803 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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ShKanon Theory
I posted this some time ago, albeit really badly explained! So, this time I hope to have explained myself better.
I just want to say that Rosa is still my murderer. This is to do with the most vital of clues...but I want to discuss something which is way more important! Don't worry I shall talk about why later. The ShKanon Theory in my opinion is not right and does not work. I will explain now why: 1) EP5 - Erika talks to everyone Of course the biggest piece of all and the one thing every person in this thread must be sick of reading but still stands. Erika saw both Kanon and Shannon in this room together. NEVER WAS ERIKA’S POSITION DISCUSSED and anyway even if it had been, so we cannot justify ShKanon by saying that one could have been behind her. Eirika is the objective detective she will see through illusions. Also Knox's 8th states: It is forbidden for the case to be solved without clues that are presented. There was never any indication of Erika's position being significant, or that Shannon/Kanon could be behind her. 2) EP2 - 1st Twilight Paradox Shannon and Kanon were seen together here again but by Battler. When he came in, he saw the bodies and saw everyone else who was already there. Shannon and Kanon held George and Jessica back respectively. That was pointed out by Battler himself. Battler is the detective in EP1-4. Thus, he will see through illusions. Kanon and Shannon are different people because they were noticed by Battler to be 2 different people 3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale Erika says I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima, and Beatrice and Battler refute the claim and say Even if you do join us - there are 17 people. Remember please – Erika says she is the 18th person, but Beato and Battler refute that and what happens? SHE DIES IN THE METAWORLD. The whole reason Erika died was that in reality it had been acknowledged that she had died – the reality that she was not actually alive in EP1-4 was being acknowledged. HOWEVER, in red it is acknowledged that she is the 18th HUMAN (which means then that dead people are included) and even being included in the total people count (notice people and not humans are being said here), there are only 17 people, she cannot be this 17th person because it already acknowledged in red that she is the 18th, meaning she has to be dead. THUS, there are 17 people alive on this island and so Kanon and Shannon have to be 2 separate people (notice, Erika cannot be the 17th person as she is DEAD I cannot emphasise this enough, no my maths is not bad AuraTwilight, you just didn't understand the argument). THUS, if dead people are counted towards the total then the people count should be 18 at least as Kinzo in gold was revealed to be dead and it would be 19 actually because the dead Kuwadorian Beato NEVER left the island + all of those people which Kinzo fought like 50 years ago would be included (the Japanese and Italians), but we do NOT include dead people otherwise we have massive problems with this. ERIKA IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL. Shannon and Kanon must be 2 SEPARATE PEOPLE for this to work to bring the total up to 17. 5) The Master Keys EP3, EP8 - it is said in red that There are five master keys, one for each of the five servants. It had been acknowledged in red that there are 5 servants, so surely S & K must be different then because the servants are counted as 2 different people. They EACH have 1 master key, the red here implies that Kanon and Shannon are carrying 2 DIFFERENT keys and so are 2 different entities (to bring the servant count up to 5). 6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight In EP4, in the tea party, this is taken a step further, Beatrice said in reply to closed room chain: All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants. This must mean that the parents when they went into the Kanon’s and Shannon’s respective rooms, THEY FOUND ACTUAL BODIES OF BOTH. 7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again: a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead, it's not so much the dead bit here (because you could say oh Shannon and Kanon are dead but Yasu isn't), but the fact that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE to bring the total up to 6 people. Otherwise, if they were the same person (which is what Yasu counts for just 1 person) then it should be counted as 5 people. b) This is emphasised time and time again in EP3 - 1st Twilight (everything said here points to the presence of 6 people), the 6 people died instantly and Nanjo's murder, the 15 people mentioned are dead. c) And in EP4, it was said that Among the five people in Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. People count bit which is interesting here. It suggests that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 different people. S & K ARE ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE RED INDIRECTLY/DIRECTLY TO BE 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. This is shown in EP2, 3 and 4. 8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed. People say that the Shannon was a fake, 3 counters to this, coming from EP4 which people seem to forget: a) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. What does this mean exactly? Well, it obviously means that the corpse that was apparently Shannon’s in the shed was definitely Shannon’s. Why is this ignored? b) There were no unidentified corpses, and all the survivors have alibis in reference to Natsuhi’s ‘suicide’, let’s ignore the 2nd part. The fact that existence of unidentified corpses has been denied means Shannon cannot have substituted a body which is not from the 18 people. At the same time, No body double tricks exist was also said, so we know that it can’t even be one of the 18. c) In reply to people who say that there was no 6th body, Battler had acknowledged it himself and had seen it, he didn’t confirm its identity was all. Battler is the detective and so there definitely exists a corpse. Following these trails of logic, we can conclude therefore that the corpse (which Battler had seen therefore making it an actual corpse) was Shannon’s. Kanon was in the shed at the same time, he was identifying Shannon’s body with Hideyoshi. The fact that he and Hideyoshi had both IDENTIFIED THE CORPSE AS SHANNON’S, it means that the corpse was Shannon. Shannon was confirmed by Kanon himself to be in a different body to himself. 9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon? There are 2 points I want to raise with this: a) Kanon’s corpse is said to be hidden, but in EVERY episode except EP2 we are provided with some sort of explanation for WHERE IT IS, but why then are these explanations ignored? There exists no evidence to say he couldn’t be in an actual location…in EP1, it is clear he is in the room where Nanjo treated him, yes we don’t see him, but we are provided with an explanation for where he is, in EP3 he is dead in the church, in EP4 he is dead in the well, the existence of which has been alluded to in EP7, and EP8. Yes I admit he may not really be in those locations. BUT ONLY IN EPISODE 2 are we provided with an instance where it is unclear where Kanon had disappeared off to. b) Kanon’s corpse can be HIDDEN (why is this immediately seen as an unsatisfactory solution?). There exist COUNTLESS places to hide Kanon’s corpse, where NOBODY except a select few would know: 1) Below the Chapel, i.e. where the gold is hidden, 2) Kuwadorian Mansion, 3) The passage to Kuwadorian alluded to in EP4 – The Dungeon (remember?), 4) Secret Passage where Beatrice, Battler and Eva are escaping in EP8, 5) Remember at the end of EP8, there was the bit where Beatrice and Battler were diving together, Kanon’s corpse could be here, 6) Ocean (brilliant place to hide corpse). Hiding places are alluded to all the time. Secret passages exist THAT CAN BE USED because they have been alluded to in the story and which the story primarily revolves around (i.e. Kuwadorian Mansion and below the chapel with the hidden gold). 10) Gender Confusion, no evidence Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place, because there was no evidence to suggest that Yasu was sexually confused, there was never anything written in the story that her physical appearance, her genitalia primarily, were mangled. The story had never given alluded to Yasu/Shannon/Kanon were physically disabled. Also regarding body doubles, don't clues have to be presented for this to work, was it ever shown that Shannon could pass off as Kanon or vice versa? Conclusion ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people. The suffering, the anguish of 2 different people are brought together into Yasu. I think it's not at all Yasu creating 2 different people but the fact that Kanon and Shannon (2 distinct people) were immensely close and so shared with each other their ideas and dreams and then when one died, the other would take up their ideas and dreams (so become one with them) and as a result create Yasu who would then complete both people's dreams instead of just the initial one. Here's my theory: 1) Kanon and Shannon are 2 different people to begin with 2) They are close and share their dreams/ideas with each other 3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens 4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people 5) whether this includes murder or not (so whether they are the culprit or not) is not being contested FOR THE MOMENT, it may be limited Please comment, any criticism on my theory would be much appreciated. I will follow up with why I think Shannon and Kanon are not culprits and why Rosa is...
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2012-10-10, 19:13
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Link #30804 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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Who is the reader in Ep2?
I understand that it's Beato game-board, however then is Battler the reader? Does that mean that there's no falsehoods in any narrated text because Battler is the detective in Ep2? If Battler is seeing the game-board directly from Beato then how come he doesn't see what really happens? Quote:
As for your point on the red it's possible for them (Kanon and Shannon) to mentioned separately in red because of persona being separate from physical bodies (without love it cannot be seen), however the point of the parents collecting 5 keys from different pockets is a good one, but there are also ways around that. That said this doesn't deny that shkanon is actually R07's red herring. I don't follow the discussion, so I don't know the consensus on this stuff. Last edited by Ryuudou; 2012-10-10 at 19:35. |
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2012-10-10, 22:50
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Link #30805 | |
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Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Personal belief: Even the rule that Piece-Battler's perspective can't contain fantasy is nothing more than etiquette on Beatrice's part so that their mystery versus fantasy game can take place. Once she's done presenting mysteries, there's nothing actually stopping her from having demon goats show up and eat him, which is pretty much what she did at the end of EP2.
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2012-10-11, 00:56
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Link #30806 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Generally demon goats only show up after midnight, the implication being that Battler has just died in the explosion and Beatrice can show whatever she wants, as there are no witnesses.
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2012-10-11, 01:36
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Pikablu, do you really think we haven't heard all your arguments before?
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If you still don't believe me, you might find this thread interesting. I managed to convince several people who had previously disbelieved in Shkanontrice over there. |
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2012-10-11, 04:43
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Link #30808 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-10-11, 05:06
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Link #30809 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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I can't believe this is still ongoing.
@roger I couldn't find anything about pushing or pulling a door in those quotes. Also that last quote is not a translation error. Maybe it's worthwhile noting "しかし、それより最初に目に入るのは、@………部屋を入ってすぐのところにうつ伏せに倒れている 郷田さ んの遺体だった…。" doesn't -explicitly- mention anything about a door (it says Gohda was lying face down in the place you get to as soon as you enter the room). |
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2012-10-11, 07:03
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I agree with Drifloon's arguments countering your points, Pikablu, but there are some things I'll add to that, and some questions for your conclusions and theory.
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But since you're on that topic - counter this section from ep 8, if you can. Why does Kanon go missing forever any time that Shannon gets killed? If Kanon and Shannon are not the same person, what does this section mean? Quote:
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- If Shannon and Kanon are fully separate people, why was Beatrice also a participant in the Love Duel? - Why is it that only one of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice's loves could be fulfilled, and why is it that they could only become human and fulfill their love if the other two were defeated and disappeared? Can you explain this with your theory without contradicting the game? The reason given in the games is that they did not possess a complete soul, and in order for one of them to realise their love and obtain a complete soul, the "incomplete souls" of Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice had to become one. The three of them add up to one person. The duel was a way of deciding who must vanish/die in order for the victor to be complete. - Knox’s 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. What is your evidence for saying that when one out of Kanon or Shannon dies, the other one takes on their hopes and dreams and lives for two people? I say that extremely clear evidence contradicting your idea of them taking on the other's dreams exists. Shannon and Kanon's dreams conflict with each other. Early in the game, they talk about their dreams as "contradicting dreams". Later, the Love Duel makes it clear that only one of their dreams can be realised, and that for one of them to get what they want, it will be be by "crushing" the happiness of the other. Shannon wants to leave the island and marry George. Kanon wants to stay on the island and develop his relationship with Jessica. How can one of them live for two and fulfill both of their dreams the way you claim? Quote:
- If they are completely separate people, why did Shannon go all blue screen of death at Will back in ep 7 when she was asked to bring Kanon so that Will could talk to the pair of them at the same time? |
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2012-10-11, 07:48
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Or, if Erika was in on the Shkanon stuff by then, it's possible to show an illusion with both of them in the same place at the same time. Quote:
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But even if he were, that doesn't mean he'd know they're two different people right away. Quote:
Okay, Erika says '18th human' but the red truth has a bad history of term-definition, so that doesn't even count. You can get round it by many ways. Human refers to personalites and not physical bodies, Erika can say 18th because she is witnessed by almost everyone as the 18th person and therefore 18th is a title and not an actual thing, you name it. Quote:
Plus the red truth is Even if you join us there are 17. It means that it becomes 17 if Erika joins in, so it's 16 without Erika. What is there not to get? Quote:
At any rate, it is generally accepted in the context of Umineko that personalities can be counted as different people as long as we are not reffering to their 'physical existence'. Let me give the first twilight of EP3 as an example, since this has been brought up countless times about it. You can't say Six dead bodies were found., but you can say Six dead people were found, people here reffering to the personalities. The same can be said for the master keys. Quote:
Plus, I know this will sound kind of ridiculous, but anyway, if Kanon and Shanon are one body but two different personalities, can't we say the same thing goes for their possesions? Or to be specific, their clothes? For example, we have Kanon's uniform and Shannon's uniform, and it's more stable than calling them different people to say that Kanon's pocket is different than Shannon's pocket. You're just twisting this too much to suit your theory. Quote:
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And it's obvious Hideyoshi is lying to George. Quote:
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Thing is, Yasu's gender is not one of the mysteries a reader has to solve. You can just wonder once you realize Shannon is Kanon, like, 'so, is it fake boobs or the other way round?'. It's not impossible, (rather, it's likely) to get there. Quote:
"Furniture isn't allowed to love." "I'm grateful for your feelings, Milady, but I can't return them because I'm furniture." "Furniture is inferior to humans because they can't love." We could go on about this all day long. Quote:
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I don't know, but you call Shkanon just wrong, this is, in my opinion, more twisted and unrealistic. Quote:
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2012-10-11, 09:10
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Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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In other words, your interpretation is thematically inelegant compared to an interpretation that also incorporates the 17 people line as relevant to the logic error argument. Quote:
There are five (master keys), one for each servant. The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person. "Servant" in this case can refer to the position, not the person. This is apparent by the following thought experiment: If all the servants but Genji died and the statement "There are five master keys, one for each servant." was made, would you call a logic error because only 1 servant (Genji) exists at the time? I don't think you would. And before you point it out, in the "one per person" part of that second red, the word "person" there is a translation artifact. "Person" is never said in that line in the original Japanese:"マスターキーは使用人たちがそれぞれ持つ一本のみ". I think it would be better translated as "The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per servant". Quote:
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A 'person' is a union between a living body and a single personality (of course dead bodies cannot unify with personalities at all). However, this does not mean that living bodies always contain the same personality. In other words, when counting existing people, you always count by living bodies. However, it's possible to kill a person by killing only their personality and not their body, so the number of dead people and dead bodies can be different. Quote:
1) "Kyrie's group" is a factual reference to 5 people who were together. But we don't necessarily know who those people are besides Kanon and Kyrie. Obviously, this interpretation gets around any kinds of ShKanon issues. But this is actually not how I interpret it. 2) "Kyrie's group" is a logical category consisting of the 5 people presented as being together: Kanon, Shannon, Nanjo, Krauss, Kyrie. In this case, since it's an entirely logical categorization, the actual status of these people is irrelevant to whether they are included in the group; they are a group by definition. Even if none of these people were together or even if none of them existed, "Kyrie's group" would still be defined as consisting of these 5 people. So, add in ShKanon Replacement Theory and we can have a group consisting of 5 people that never had more than 4 of those people existing at a time, but still had all 5 of them die. By the way, EP4 is really, really hard to explain without using a culprit from the people in "Kyrie's group". It's not a good episode for Rosatrice theory. Quote:
George guessed there was a 6th corpse lying at Hideyoshi's feet entirely by Hideyoshi's posture. It's reasonable to imagine Battler did the same, especially since he didn't know who the corpse was either. Quote:
Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!! Although I find it kind of iffy myself. Feels like that part should be blue. |
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2012-10-11, 09:35
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Link #30813 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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You guys waste an awful lot of time when we could all just point out that Shkanon is clearly, by text and interviews, Ryukishi's intended solution, so it doesn't actually matter how stupid it is, or how specifically it works (as I've pointed out repeatedly, Ryukishi doesn't really consider in any detail how it actually works, but he clearly intends that it does work).
I don't like it either, but other than that one ep5 scene you're not going to find something in there that contradicts the notion. Admittedly, one counter-proof ought to disprove the whole thing, but there are enough problems surrounding that story which are never explained (such as "how does it even work in the first place?") that it isn't clear that it is a counter-proof. And even if it's just a mistake, you can't change the author's interpretation based on a mistake. You can argue the author's mistake hurts the work, but honestly at this point I think he's staked his claim on what he actually intends and there's not much point saying otherwise. There are other things he left pretty vague, but this is one he basically hammered home about as hard as he possibly could after Dawn.
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2012-10-11, 10:09
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Link #30814 | |
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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There's no real way around Shkanon and Shkanontrice without making a mockery of the entire series, true, but some people evidently dislike the solution enough that they're willing to ignore that and say that Shkanontrice makes more of a mockery of the series. (...I'm not so sure how they get to thinking that, but okay.) And so, it's fun to argue the situation, if people bring interesting theories. I don't think that, say, Pikablu's theory above could be correct because of its conflicts with the series, but I would enjoy seeing if they can come up with a creative/interesting/plausible solution to the problems a non-Shkanontrice solution would pose regardless. |
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2012-10-11, 10:16
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Well, maybe Battler fulfils those requirements, so maybe if he'd stepped into the shed to look for Shannon's corpse he'd ruin everything, but I really think he's just duped before investigating. So, he's.... a lazy/dumbass detective? Quote:
My guess is people are totally hitting that uncertainty because they are dissatisfied with the actual answer. Quote:
I've come across countles insane, fun and even genious theories in this forum which totally kicked my mental ass, but none based on the premise of some ridiculous conspiracy theory about a fake mystery novel set in a mystery novel which has yet another mystery novel hidden in its inner layer. Trying to get round the offical explanation for fun, just because there are other possibilities isn't making a mockery of the series, it's actually what was intended in the first place. Going all KnownNoMore about it is.
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2012-10-11, 11:19
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Link #30816 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
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I don't like the solution and am dissatisfied with it on multiple levels... but it's the one he clearly meant to be true. Testing it for flaws is one thing, and speculating on silly things understanding they're intentionally silly is another. Hell, even making fan fiction that explicitly alters certain premises with the understanding that such a thing is non-canon but intended to be interesting is perfectly fine.
If, however, you're going to say "Ryukishi didn't actually mean it when he said all these things in favor of Shkanon, here's what he actually meant," you need to be willing to present a pretty airtight theory that accounts for everything in some fashion. It need not be right necessarily, as most of the solutions won't be unless they're Shkanon variants since Ryukishi has basically stated outright that Shkanon is true (at least in the board stories), but it needs to address flaws and say "this is generally interpreted like this, but it's wrong because of this." Yes, that leads to insane nine hour Youtube videos, but at least he's pretending to support it with something. However, we've gone over just about every angle possible and at this point I don't see how the intended solution can be any clearer short of Ryukishi coming on here and posting "Yes, this is exactly what I meant." Of course none of this is to say Rosa couldn't have been the Prime culprit. I suppose she's just as (un)likely as anybody else.
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2012-10-11, 19:25
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People don't use her position to prove ShKannon. It's after ShKannon was proved and confirmed by Ryukishi they deducted something should have stopped Erika from observing them both at the same time. Quote:
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And no rule say Yasu can't own 2 keys, one for Shannon and one for Kanon. Actually the red seems to imply exactly this. Quote:
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And again Ryukishi confirmed this. Quote:
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And there's all Ep 6 that imply that Shannon adn Kanon are the same person pursuing different dreams of having a love story with 2 different people of different sex. Quote:
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I recommend though to read Our Confession whom Wanderer kindly translated as well as Ryukishi's interview and to wait for the translation of Ep 8 manga version. They can answer to many of the things you pointed out in a better way than me. Quote:
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Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-11 at 19:36. |
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2012-10-11, 20:38
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Link #30818 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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@Drifloon
Yes I realise that I have posted something similar to this before but I didn’t explain myself as clearly as I would have wanted to. EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out: See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point. And I think it’s pretty well established that Kinzo is dead (no need to be patronizing man). EP6 – People Count, Erika’s Finale That’s not my point at all. And your argument is completely wrong anyway. She says ‘I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima’ – the way she says it does not restrict the number of people who are counted as humans (including the dead). She’s not saying ‘There are no more than 18 people like is usually said’. My point is that Erika dies in the meta world because it is being acknowledged that she is actually a dead person. The 17 people count does NOT include dead people, Erika’s not the 17th person. Shannon and Kanon are the 16th and 17th people. EP3 – 1st Twilight, yes fine I agree there is a loop hole now for Shannon to jump down to chapel (or vice versa, judging by the fact that it is on the 1st floor) BUT… Body Count = People Count, from that thread you’ve shown me it’s very hard to work out what everyone means…(that could just be my own problem tbh)…I don’t understand it, if the red in EP6 is used then it means people = bodies which means Shannon and Kanon have different bodies which means that surely Shannon is not Kanon then? I’m having real trouble understanding what people are saying about this. EP1 – 1st Twilight, you are right in the anime and manga he does not see it, but I forget what is said in EP1 VN…can someone remind me what actually Battler said (I lost my data) but he did acknowledge Shannon’s body somehow… And about the personality deaths – we cannot say that personality DEFINITELY = people as EVA Beatrice exists (and Ronove, Virgilia and Beatrice sort of) and if we count personalities = people then we have to include these people too in the people count. It’s actually slightly confusing if personalities are counted because there are so many flying about the place. @GoldenLand My use for Knox’s 8th is not to disprove Shannon = Kanon but to eradicate any sort of confusion about EP5. There is a contradiction about the solution in EP5 and nothing about Erika’s position or ShKanon’s positions were discussed relative to each other to allow Erika to see one but not the other. From the way it was put it actually seemed like she was looking at everyone, so looking at Kanon and Shannon at the same time. Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing. The bit about EP8 – this is such a red herring, this red only applies to Bern’s game and not the core question arcs. If this did apply so literally then one could raise an eyebrow at Battler being the culprit. The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context. My Own Theory (The Pikablu Theory hehe): 1) Ok if Kanon and Shannon are fully separate people, why can’t Beatrice participate? It’s to do with love then anyone who loves anyone has a right to enter, Beatrice can enter as a separate entrant. 2) Couldn’t it be that each couple LACKS SOMETHING and thus only one can fulfil their love? Rather than being about if 1 wins then the other 2 lose? There is no mention in an actual contradiction of love between their respective matches. There is definitely evidence of a lack of confidence in both Kanon and Shannon. 3) Maybe they lack not being actual humans, but the FEELING of being human, there are loads of hints that they FEEL not human as in Kanon calling himself furniture, Beato being a witch transcending humans, Shannon not having enough confidence. And by winning the duel against the other, one can gain enough confidence and get to be with their loved one. So e.g. if Shannon won against Kanon, by defeating her brother (her closest companion), she’s effectively fighting the world to be with George, it’s about confidence. 4) My evidence for Kanon and Shannon taking up each other’s dreams? Well the fact that they are extremely close and know what the other’s dreams are. The EP6 duel illustrates this too that Kanon disappears because he dies (yes it could be a personality death but equally as possible is that it is metaphorically transferring ideas between 2 different people)…please tell me if I haven’t explained that well because it’s important for my argument. 5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be. @Captain Bluebeard Yeah there was a red on the Battler detective thing which Wanderer thankfully provided. And shouldn’t it generally be accepted Battler is the detective? Why else would Beatrice repeatedly confirm that ‘obviously Battler is not the culprit’. We don’t such flashy confirmations about being the detective from other detectives in other fiction stories (albeit yes detectives in other stories are never dealing with magic in such a way). But isn’t Battler generally acknowledged to be the detective, just like Poirot is at the beginning of an AC story? We don’t need an Erika level of flashiness to prove it, it’s just accepted that it is that way. And didn’t Will say that if he stepped in he would ruin everything, also the fact that HE NEVERS SEES ILLUSIONS BEFORE MIDNIGHT (when bomb goes off). Everything points to him being the detective. We see the factual story through his eyes and this is accepted. About the EP6 bit, you’re not getting what I’m saying. ERIKA IS NOT THE 17TH PERSON, you do not include dead people in this total otherwise Kinzo would be counted for (and so would a lot of other people). The whole result of that scene/duel is that ERIKA DIES. It has been acknowledged that in reality she is dead, she calls herself the 18th human anyway IN RED. 18th Human does not mean 17th person. Beatrice can certainly ‘cheat’ with the red, but again red is the undeniable truth ONLY in its time and place, she plays around with words and timings/places to ‘cheat’, the red itself is unbreakable in its context. Furniture – could this not simply be a reference to social standing rather than jumping the gun to humans/half-humans. That servant house where Kanon and Shannon were sent to, could have taught them such etiquette for when they around family members that they were serving. It would be wrong to offer opinions, think you’re on the same level as everyone else…there are societies which exist to dehumanise you (this is not so far-fetched an idea)… And there have been plenty of indications to say that ShKanon is purely metaphorical, the very basis of it extends to Shannon = Kanon at SOME POINT…this doesn’t have to mean that Yasu was there and gave birth to 2 separate personalities. And no need to be rude…yeah I remember Knox’s existence all the time because isn’t that the basic tool of a detective novel, to go around the rules to make something interesting for the reader? In that case, why can’t I use it to deduce what I need to? Didn’t R make it a necessity for the story to follow Knox’s Decalogue (I’m not just quoting it for the heck of it)…I also am sort of asking you guys questions too (the more knowledgeable uminekos!) to help me with my understanding of what’s going on. ---- Also I now have another problem guys (yes there is more…sorry), if you need to buy off people, and we know money is a powerful incentive. But, surely we know about Genji and in certain other cases like Natsuhi and Jessica…we know money is NOT a motivator for helping out. Genji is no known financial difficulties and has spent his ENTIRE life with Kinzo, one can therefore conclude that he is very loyal to Kinzo whether this extends to the rest of the Ushiromiya family is questionable but we therefore know that certain people cannot simply be ‘bought off’ as accomplices. So my question is this, if Nanjo was helping Shannon, what was in it for him. Money is a powerful motivator but what is it ever revealed whether Nanjo would be willing to take a bribe; in fact, the opposite was shown. It was shown that he was VERY dedicated just like Genji to Kinzo, so money again I don’t think is an important factor with him…if R says that that is how Nanjo helped Shannon/Kanon I do not want to accept it…
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:11. |
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2012-10-11, 21:22
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One page shows: Rosa screaming, Shannon and Kanon looking shocked, Rosa collapsing, and some people leaving. The next page shows Battler, George, and Jessica arriving, and the corpses. The page after that shows Genji, Kanon, and the cousins. Advancing, I don't see Shannon until after Kanon leaves. VN: Rosa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda are in the chapel. Rosa sends Genji and Shannon to ask Kinzo for instructions. She then sends Gohda and Kanon to summon Nanjo. ... The cousins wake up and go to the mansion. They see Gohda enter the servants' room and Kanon talk to Nanjo. Quote:
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Gohda leaves Kanon with Jessica. Quote:
--- Shannon and Genji meet with Kinzo. Battler doesn't see Shannon on the 5th until they meet in the dining room. ----------------- And the anime also clearly has Shannon leave the chapel before the cousins arrive. In other words, Battler does not see Shannon and Kanon at the same time in Episode 2 at the chapel.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:07. |
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2012-10-11, 21:53
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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19 - Kinzo equals 17. Battler and Beatrice say in Red that Everyone Else + Erika = 17. Therefore, Everyone else - Erika = 16. If there are only 16 people, then one of the 17 members of the cast must be a false identity. Work it out, homeslice. Quote:
Evatrice and the others do not count as personalities because they are magical beings that do not actually exist. Eva never 'becomes' Evatrice and pretends to be her. Shannon and Kanon are unique in this regard. Quote:
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At no point, in any episode, does the Detective ever see Shannon's AND Kanon's dead bodies. When one is confirmed to be dead, the other just vanishes into thin air. And Kanon himself has never left a corpse, ever. Not even in Episode 1, since Battler never observes him die. His body is unseen in EP1, EP2, EP3, EP4, EP6... [QUOTE]The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.[QUOTE] Why would Shannon and Kanon be the same person in the kakera meant to show us the Truth of everything, the "inner guts" of Beatrice....but not apply to every other episode? Bernkastel has no interest in any further deceptions, pretty metaphors, secrets, allegories, or mysteries, so why would she pull the wool over Will's eyes just because? And what would be the point of Lion's existence? Your statement makes the entirety of EP7 an absolute and complete waste of time that tells us absolutely nothing. Quote:
2) Why can't both of them gain confidence? Why does Kanon need to make Shannon and Beatrice both lose so he can win? Why is he described as only having PART of a soul? 3) ...But Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice HAVE confidence! Kanon had a lot of development in EP6. As Jessica herself observes, nothing is really getting in the way here. Nothing like confidence, or parents, or social stigma. Your confidence theory is shot down by the actual text. 4) So...in EP7 when Shannon makes Kanon up before he shows up at the mansion? That meant...? 5) Zepar and Furfur claim that Shannon, Beatrice, and Kanon do not have the RIGHT to love. Their soul is a single soul divided between three loves, and one soul should only love one person. If Kanon is not Shannon and Beatrice, why does he have to share a soul with them? Quote:
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Erika was already dying. They could've just waited to die. But they decided to give her an honorable death that answered her final questions in life. By giving her that Red, Erika learned the beauty of Beatrice's gameboard and passed on peacefully, understanding how Beatrice was able to solve the Logic Error. Admit it, Pikablu. You're not resisting Shkanon because it doesn't make sense. You're rejecting it because you personally dislike it, and don't want it to be true. Quote:
Every other character who calls themselves Furniture is a supernatural, imaginary being that does not truly exist. Beatrice herself calls herself Furniture. Ergo, Shannon and Kanon = Furniture = Imaginary Beings. Quote:
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:06. |
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