Cool Why is called 42? Was it a book? I guess my definition of universe is as a micro-universe? I'm a bump in this micro-system; and I interact with it accordingly; having fun with other bumps like u said, and trying not to make a mess for bumps to come. Tho this micro-universe would be infinitesimally minute in relation to the real universe (physical and time-wise); it is infinitesimally huge to me. Ahwell, better get back to topic.
On your thoughts, C.A., here are mine: I think its really pointless to ask this questions. Whether our race will go extinct or not; no matter how it will; the point is that we exist now and thats that. Don't you think it is better to exist, and be at least remotely able to do something about those extinction-issues; rather than not exist in the first place? Who's to say we were not created or chanced on for the better of good? And that question "Why not just kill ourselves now" really pisses me off. If you are questioning that much, be my guest. Just don't speak for the rest of humanity. For me, I'd subscribe to what Vexx said. We may not be important to the universe; but you are important as an indivdual, to yourself and the people who love you, as am I. (shameless attempt to make this on topic): Haruhi may not be important to the rest of the world (i.e. the universe), but she certainly is important to Kyon. And thats a good enough reason to exist, imo.
But please don't take this personally. Nice views. I wanted to post something about religion and such, but I'd better not.
Well:
Spoiler:
These are the views of someone who used to suffer from depression lol
This episode brought those thoughts back to me, not that I've always been lamenting on the pointlessness of existance.
I wanted to say something that's more on topic just now, but I forgot after typing so much lol
Haruhi is valuable to the Data entities because of her abilities, but I think she's as valuable for humans as well. If she knew what she can do, she could be the saviour for humanity, that's if she favours humans lol
She can make life much more fun and interesting even without the SOS dan.
Well, a good episode, but not as good as the others. I kinda wanted to slap Kyon, does he not see that Haruhi is having feelings for him. Can he not find any words or actions to comfort her?
It seems this episodes philisophic nature envoked quite a bit of theorizing amongst the fans. A lot of speculations on why we exist it seems. Kinda funny....
It's not very easy for the somewhat pragmatic Kyon to risk it given it's Suzumiya Haruhi now is it... he's already thinking of saying some philosophical anecdote but many times his reference falls to deaf ears to her. He has a load of unanswered questions to deal with himself and Haruhi's revelation is a part of the puzzle. He's more than capable verbally to express himself but he is lost with the revelations pounds him endlessly.
__________________
It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori
What Lost and C.A said brings up another issue that is at the center of Suzumiya Haruhi... whether or not if being content with the world and maintaining status quo is the best.
Data Entity wants the key to autoevolution, Time travellers want to preserve their heritage and ability to go back in time, The organization want to survive... which comes to my point. Is being content the key to survival or be on the move and change by any mean the best solution? Kyon finds the world as it is to be interesting so there's no need to artifically press for even more dramatic changes that Haruhi's "new order" might bring but Asakura demonstrates the innate frustration with the status quo (one that Haruhi experiences in vol1 but less afterwards). Survival in being content vs. survival in constant shifts would sum this up...
I agree with Kyon's conclusion but that's just me
__________________
It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori
Cool Why is called 42? Was it a book? I guess my definition of universe is as a micro-universe? I'm a bump in this micro-system; and I interact with it accordingly; having fun with other bumps like u said, and trying not to make a mess for bumps to come. Tho this micro-universe would be infinitesimally minute in relation to the real universe (physical and time-wise); it is infinitesimally huge to me. Ahwell, better get back to topic.
Vexx was referencing Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy" and the answer the super computer Deep Thought spent 7 1/2 million years calcuating from the ultimate question of "Life, The Universe, and Everything."
And I think that William Shakespere was right on the money with Hamlet's soliloquy that starts with "To Be, or not to be..." (Hamlet, Act III, scene 1)
TThis episode brought those thoughts back to me, not that I've always been lamenting on the pointlessness of existance.
Spoiler for off topic:
So what if existance is inherently meaningless? I don't believe there's any grand purpose, meaning, or reason for existance. To me it's a culmination of random chance over billions of years that brought about this outcome. However, we as humans have to ability to create our own purpose. If there is no inherent meaning to existance, that is what we must then do. The meaning we create ourselves is just as true as it would have been if it had been inherent to existance.
Yes, its very sad that we humans have so much chance, but we are short lived. We could develop all sorts of technology if we are given the time, we would probably be able to escape the Big Crunch/Freeze by sliding through dimensions in the future. We could escape all sorts of cosmic destruction if we had the technology.
But will people continue living happily, 20 billion years in the future? What reason do humans have to continue living? Do humans keep on living just so that the race will carry on? Is there a point to that? Well one thing I can think of is that we can probably spread life all over the universe, but in the end there's still no point in doing that. There's no ultimate point in life.
Random thoughts from panzerfan's:
I love this part of the lyrics from 'Bouken Desho Desho?':This song has beautiful lyrics, very meaningful as well.
Also not sure why but I feel like talking about time travelling, into the future. Time travelling into the future is much easier than going into the past. All we have to do is move, when we move we are already going into the future, how far we are going into the future can be calculated. Following Einstein's theory of relativity, the closer we get to the speed of light, the slower time is relative to us.
e.g.: So if we travel for 6 months in a space ship at 99% the speed of light and return to Earth, 50 years or so would have been passed. There, we travelled into the future.
Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol
Not really sure why people are spoiler-tagging these as they're not directly related to the episode . Anyway, I like some of the points you brought out, albeit too ideal for my taste. I don't believe humans will live that long; we evolve, and eventually may encounter superior life forms elsewhere, and with our cockish southern attitude we'll get wiped out (/endsarcasm btw). The Big Crunch is a very unlikely feature for the universe. So far the Big Freeze is more probable since the universe is expanding and not slowing down (although it depends on the geometry of the universe, which we obviously don't know right now). And with dark matter possibly existing, it will only assist in further increasing the rate of expansion. But eh, we'll either die off or be integrated into Yuki's Data Entity before we get to that point .
I also agree with C.A. that the OP/ED songs have very good lyrics and meaningful even though they're both slightly too genki for me.
As to others who try to justify or defend the "importance" of existence, I say, "whatever." To me, you don't have to be important to exist. The more I try to justify the importance and think about this issue, the more depressed I get. It's better to defenestrate the issue at hand because I don't think it's relevant. "Importance" is a relative term like "hot" or "cold." I think the show is more about cogito, ergo sum AKA I am thinking, therefore I exist. Her thinking made existence of her wishes, which defines reality for her; but common sense grounded her to "reality" (our reality). It is weird how an anime can make me think so much about philsophy and physics. I think I veered off whatever I originally wanted to talk about, but I think I touched on those points regardless. Someone feel me to return me to whichever hot topic is at hand in this thread .
Oh yeah, this is what I get for being a TA for a quantum physics professor! It was also pretty sad that I actually recognized most of the formulas on the OP credits as soon as I saw the equations.
I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:
Spoiler:
Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?
If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:
Spoiler for events:
In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.
Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.
Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.
And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.
This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.
I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.
This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?
@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did
I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?
Spoiler:
Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)
Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, all i have to say is relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in the right order this time, yes no maybe so?)
P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season
I liked this chapter because of personal reasons and it set me thinking. PM me if you want personal reasons, here are some of the thoughts I had when I read the chapter:
Spoiler:
Why do humans exist? Why do we have/want to live our lives and die? Does the Anthropic Principle make any sense?
If we humans exist because the Universe allows us to exist, then why are these events going to happen?:
Spoiler for events:
In 5 billion years: Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the entire inner solar system. If we humans still live around the solar system, we would be fried.
Even if we manage to colonise the outer solar system, the supernova coming afterwards would destroy the entire solar system.
Approximately 10 - 15 billion years from now, our nearest neighbouring galaxy, Andromeda will collide into our Milky Way. The central super blackholes will merge, who knows what would happen when the 2 galaxies merge into one. If humans can survive for so long, we probably have to prepare to leave the Milky Way when we can see the Andromeda galaxy without telescopes.
Within 25 billion years, our local galaxy super cluster will be totally destroyed by a single super blackhole that has grown so large over the years, it pulls entire galaxies on contact with its event horizon. When finally every single galaxy in the galaxy cluster and everything within range has been absorbed by the blackhole, something unimaginable will happen: Scientists predict that this black hole unable to feed and sustain itself with further collapse on its own. All the matter in the blackhole will compress into the centre, heat and energy builds up as the blackhole becomes increasingly denser. Until when it finally is unable to hold the immense pressure, it will explode like a small version of the Big Bang, probably destroying a part of the universe, reforming it.
And who knows whether there would be a Big Crunch or Big Freeze at the end.
This is what I learnt from Discovery Channel.
I mention these on several forums I visited before and the response I always get is that humans probably won't see these events or we don't have to worry because humans would destroy each other in the near future.
This begs the question even more, why do we exist at all? Since we are so short lived and our existance doesn't matter to the universe. Do we exist so that we can learn that our race will eventually die one day? If thats the case why do we make our lives even more pointless by spending our everyday lives doing the same thing everyday: wake up, brush, eat, school/work, eat, brush, sleep, repeat. Even if we get to live very special lives, we would still die one day and leave everything behind. Why not just kill ourselves now?
@Kamui4356: lol I'm glad to know that someone visualised the closed space similar to how I did
I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?
Spoiler:
Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)
Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in 'chronological' order this time, yes no maybe so?)
P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season
@Vexx and panzerfan: After reading both posts, I had some random thoughts lol
Spoiler for , no idea why we are using spoiler tags lol:
Random thoughts from Vexx's post:
Yes, its very sad that we humans have so much chance, but we are short lived. We could develop all sorts of technology if we are given the time, we would probably be able to escape the Big Crunch/Freeze by sliding through dimensions in the future. We could escape all sorts of cosmic destruction if we had the technology.
But will people continue living happily, 20 billion years in the future? What reason do humans have to continue living? Do humans keep on living just so that the race will carry on? Is there a point to that? Well one thing I can think of is that we can probably spread life all over the universe, but in the end there's still no point in doing that. There's no ultimate point in life.
Random thoughts from panzerfan's:
I love this part of the lyrics from 'Bouken Desho Desho?':This song has beautiful lyrics, very meaningful as well.
Also not sure why but I feel like talking about time travelling, into the future. Time travelling into the future is much easier than going into the past. All we have to do is move, when we move we are already going into the future, how far we are going into the future can be calculated. Following Einstein's theory of relativity, the closer we get to the speed of light, the slower time is relative to us.
e.g.: So if we travel for 6 months in a space ship at 99% the speed of light and return to Earth, 50 years or so would have been passed. There, we travelled into the future.
Also from Discovery Channel, the human who's been furthest into the future is a russian cosmonaut who spent 748 days on the space station. Spending so much time at the orbiting speed of mach 24, he is on average 1/50th of a second more into the future compared everyone else on Earth lol
That's like every anime song on the planet. Basically me and my friend agree that every anime song has a requirement to fit in a combination the words "Dreams, Follow, Your, Tomorrow, Happiness, Reason, Realize, Love, Sky, Stars and/or Beautiful, Blue, Earth". For Shounen just use antononyms to most of the above mentioned words, Congratulations you've just made a hit anime song and can sit back and collect the royalties.
Honestly to me the tune is what counts as more often than not the lyrics make me want to cry myself to sleep.
I'm not sure those theories like the big bang, big crunch or the big freeze qualify as a spoiler, like you said we could've found out via discovery, wiki or etc...but whatever. Any string theorists out there?
Spoiler:
Anyways to the point, anthropic principle seems to me to reflect the old addage of a tree falling in the woods and no one's aroung does it make a sound? Itsuki puts it the best "The existence of humans permits the existence of the universe." Would the universe be here without a human or life in general there to observe it; to go and say kokoni iruyo "here i am."
It's more philosophy than theory, but then we can't be sure.
I don't believe in the theory that Haruhi=God, but a believer of string theory(the theory of everything) which goes past quantum mechanincs past the planc scale to the smallest denominator i'm talking 10 to the negative 32 power of a centimeter; this is the realm of strings, being energy bands that vibrate like the strings of a guitar or piano and thus throught these vibrations create all the subatomic particles known to man. Being able to play the guitar and piano (in the credits anyway) Haruhi may be an excellent candidate as the force that plucks those strings creating the beautiful symphony that is our universe. (but she's still no god)
Haruhi's speech in this episode resonates of existentialism, nothing matters, we're all just a drop in a bucket, a very bleak interpretation of life, some of the posts seem very bleak too, relax, enjoy life, and go watch more Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (maybe in 'chronological' order this time, yes no maybe so?)
P.S. GOD PLS PLS PLS let there be a second season, pls pls pls, this is a fantastic show, with more that enough substance for another season
It was an amazing episode but not a crowd-pleaser so I doubt this'll get high opinion. That'll be reserved for viewing of the final episode (assuming AX events allow us to do so legitimately...fortunately, I know people in Japan). But this touches at the heart of Melancholy in the human condition. Haruhi fights against it and does all those crazy things thus far to get around her heart of Melancholy. To me, this episode is perfect. Even the long-winded dialog got my mind turning. What can I believe about what Itsuki says? It even makes me wonder about the absolute nature of what he's said previously. It's a delicious puzzle box with its soft and rougher moments. One piece is left to this puzzle...And this one gets a ten from me, amazing translation effort too. Absolutely amazing.
I think this is a great episode and brought up a bunch of good questions. Haruhi explained to us reason why has she always sought after paranormal things. I think itsuki's dialogue in the car is rather interesting.
The closed space part is well done, it's pretty much how I imagined. Like someone already said, the destruction of closed space is maybe abit rushed (we talking about KyoAni quality here), but overall it's a well done episode, and a very fitting episode to setup for a finale.
(the old notes in ontology section suddenly bears to mind right about now. Suzumiya Haruhi fascinated me because of that in the first place, not purely for its premise...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Kerina
What can I believe about what Itsuki says? It even makes me wonder about the absolute nature of what he's said previously.
As such, take Kyon with a grain of salt as well... he makes it clear that he is biased against Koizumi Itsuki.
What Killer Loli mentions and Kaioshin_Sama corrects with Nihilism actually would augment Kaioshin's arguments by saying that Haruhi is trapped in a Nihilist dilemma. "Truth does not exist" being the perfect example to use. Her thought manifests in reality as the enclosed space is rooted to the liar paradox. One must apply a degree of relativist view to remedy this clash of 2 absolutes regarding the dull reality within Haruhi's head.
(O yea, I believe in M-theory to an extent. Call me a string believer too but... I am open to more interpretations)
__________________
It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori
Why is called 42? Was it a book? I guess my definition of universe is as a micro-universe? I'm a bump in this micro-system; and I interact with it accordingly; having fun with other bumps like u said, and trying not to make a mess for bumps to come. Tho this micro-universe would be infinitesimally minute in relation to the real universe (physical and time-wise); it is infinitesimally huge to me. Ahwell, better get back to topic.
Artist
Administrator
. Anyway, I like some of the points you brought out, albeit too ideal for my taste. I don't believe humans will live that long; we evolve, and eventually may encounter superior life forms elsewhere, and with our cockish southern attitude we'll get wiped out (/endsarcasm btw). The Big Crunch is a very unlikely feature for the universe. So far the Big Freeze is more probable since the universe is expanding and not slowing down (although it depends on the geometry of the universe, which we obviously don't know right now). And with dark matter possibly existing, it will only assist in further increasing the rate of expansion. But eh, we'll either die off or be integrated into Yuki's Data Entity before we get to that point 
