US Elections 2008

[Ledgem]

A historian could prove me wrong (and please do), but I don't think the US has its influence purely due to economics. Up until World War II (or maybe it was the first one - I think the second) the US was mostly an agricultural nation, if you look at income and general activity. World War II jump-started a shift over to industry.

But WW2 did more than just that. While America was certainly not "the savior of the world" it shredded many of the more developed nations and certainly put America into the spotlight. While democracy isn't loved by everyone everywhere, many people in western societies value freedom (although you wouldn't believe it, given how the governments are seemingly trying to make Orwell's vision a reality). America was founded on the ideals of freedom, and people find this appealing; at least partly as a result, cultural export has occurred to the extent that it has.

Will America ever fade? If the freedoms that defined it disappear, maybe. Otherwise, I doubt it. I don't think America itself is the "beacon of light on a hill" that some ultra-patriots make it out to be, but the idea behind America certainly fits that description. America may be the closest implementation to that ideal that exists in the world at this point in time, and as a result there will always be that allure and influence.

[Luminisk]

The US losing its superpower status is a bit overblown.
I believe what some were saying was that the US will not be the tip of the spearhead any longer, which, I must add was in the process already. It is becoming a global economy to think that one nation can prop up the entire world in this day and age is foolhardy.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

A historian could prove me wrong (and please do), but I don't think the US has its influence purely due to economics. Up until World War II (or maybe it was the first one - I think the second) the US was mostly an agricultural nation, if you look at income and general activity. World War II jump-started a shift over to industry.

I think the US road to industralisation began around the 1850s. (I'm supposed to know this stuff; doing 2 modules on the US with the same prof ) The Civil War has been seen by some to be a war on policy: plantation agriculture or industry? With the Union victory, it was clear that Union policy (industry and no more slavery) became the rule of the day.

By 1900, the US was THE industrial power of the world. And little wonder: Most of the 50 states were in the US, either as full states or territories. The combination of land mass, resources and population was almost "magical" for the States. Many Americans tend to forget that the States started as a "puny" 13 state nation. About 100 years later, the lower 48 states have come into being (again as states or territories).

But Ledgem was right on one account: WWII was the watershed event. In '45, the US accounted for half the world's economy, due to the destruction of the other warring countries.

[Solace]

The United States will remain as a global superpower even in the light of recent decades. The reasons are abundantly clear - the system and society are incredibly adaptable and the nation has abundant resources. It's easy to say that our status is decreasing but the true light is not that our status is decreasing, but that others are rising. Decades of American ideals, combined with our mistakes and triumphs, have built a model for other nations to use. Our ideals of freedom and equality have left a mark on the world, even if some are uncomfortable with the idea that they won't be "better", just "different".

It's the fear that the US won't be "number one" that is really at the heart of the matter. The fear that we won't be good at anything, that we'll have nothing to be proud of as a nation. I think the fear is healthy, but can be misused. In this election you can see the war of ideals - one candidate speaks of the growing power and influence of other nations with a tone of caution, the other speaks of it as an opportunity. One speaks of how we must "nip it in the bud" and the other speaks of rising to the challenge.

Despite the problems the nation faces the country as a whole is not unhealthy. The erosion of the system is not irreparable, and it's almost comforting to see that its people do raise concern even when so many describe the populace as apathetic to the nations problems. In the end, the country is one built for the people and by the people, and in the end they'll shape it into whatever form it becomes in the future.

One can't help but look at the world and see that there will be problems abroad, just as there are problems at home. One of the biggest fears is that violence will play a part of global politics. Politicians play on those fears with claims that foreign countries are national threats, and we must deal with them in harsh terms. I fear many have lost sight of the true reason the United States was successful - compromise. The ability to adjust and adapt to ideals that are not your own, to defend to the death the right to think and believe, even if others don't agree with you. The belief that equality isn't about classes, races, genders, beliefs, etc., but about opportunities.

In many respects the nation has fought itself over the ideals it was built upon, but over time, those problems are sorted out and addressed. New problems arise and are worked on, and the cycle continues to this day. Each moment the United States exists is a new challenge, a test of the principles set forth by those who died creating them and those who died defending them.

I think, in the end, that the future is bright. Fears give way, no bad thing lasts forever. Humans have shown, time and time again, that the cycle of evils waxes and wanes with the cycle of good. Each period is a moment of cleansing, and while no one enjoys the evils, they are necessary to remind people of why the good is worth fighting so hard for.

Some speak of this as the end. I see it as a beginning. I don't think this is the end of the United States, but a moment of introspection, learning from those lessons, and becoming a better nation as a result.

It's the end of Imperial America. But it's the beginning of a better America.

[Shadow Kira01]

Those are quite interesting and creative predictions you got.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

1. US's downfall.
US falls from its world power status and lives in isolation from the rest of the world. The rest of the world, without US idealistic pragmatism (oxymoron intended) struggles to get back on its feet.

It won't happen and it never will. To surpass the US's economy and military power is going to be tough and it will not be possible for any one country alone, unless the idea of merging, if not the only possible option would be to obtain alien support. Thus, the idea of the US falling from its world power status may be possible, yet the country will not become isolated from other nations, because there isn't another reliable economy power to rely on at this era.

2. Rise Of The East
North Korea becomes a superpower after annexing the South, buys technodollars from Chinese black markets. It becomes the new US, albeit with less morality and technological advancement, but controls through fear using its Special Forces around the world, in which US, UK and Russia are the only ones able to counter. Wars become en-masse espionage wars, with hundreds of secret agents conducting assassinations on a daily basis on each others' agents and VIPs.

North Korea? Is this a joke? Even if North Korea and South Korea are to officially merge, their economy power is still too weak and their military power is a total joke. Putting the North Korean nuclear warheads aside, what military power do they even possess? Instead, I think it will be the Rise of the European Union as a single entity rather than separate nations. With Germany, France, and Britain as the main leaders, the European Nation can possibly surpass the US without too much effort. After all, the current nations that are saving the global financial crisis is Europe, not the American bailout plan.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

North Korea? Is this a joke? Even if North Korea and South Korea are to officially merge, their economy power is still too weak and their military power is a total joke. Putting the North Korean nuclear warheads aside, what military power do they even possess? Instead, I think it will be the Rise of the European Union as a single entity rather than separate nations. With Germany, France, and Britain as the main leaders, the European Nation can possibly surpass the US without too much effort. After all, the current nations that are saving the global financial crisis is Europe, not the American bailout plan.

More like Rise of Asia, since most of the world's population does live there. US won't be able to force its way around the world anymore ^^. At least, I hope so *is sick of America waging war everywhere for their own benefit*.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

A historian could prove me wrong (and please do), but I don't think the US has its influence purely due to economics. Up until World War II (or maybe it was the first one - I think the second) the US was mostly an agricultural nation, if you look at income and general activity. World War II jump-started a shift over to industry.

But WW2 did more than just that. While America was certainly not "the savior of the world" it shredded many of the more developed nations and certainly put America into the spotlight. While democracy isn't loved by everyone everywhere, many people in western societies value freedom (although you wouldn't believe it, given how the governments are seemingly trying to make Orwell's vision a reality). America was founded on the ideals of freedom, and people find this appealing; at least partly as a result, cultural export has occurred to the extent that it has.

Will America ever fade? If the freedoms that defined it disappear, maybe. Otherwise, I doubt it. I don't think America itself is the "beacon of light on a hill" that some ultra-patriots make it out to be, but the idea behind America certainly fits that description. America may be the closest implementation to that ideal that exists in the world at this point in time, and as a result there will always be that allure and influence.

I don't know I think US was a superpower because of its wealth. No other country could compete its production capability. I think it was said in my AP US text book that essentially the US won WWII because it just out produced other nations(Of course I am just generalizing this). And also I do have to respect the Americans as they do try to uphold their ideas of freedom and equality.

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

North Korea? Is this a joke? Even if North Korea and South Korea are to officially merge, their economy power is still too weak and their military power is a total joke. Putting the North Korean nuclear warheads aside, what military power do they even possess? Instead, I think it will be the Rise of the European Union as a single entity rather than separate nations. With Germany, France, and Britain as the main leaders, the European Nation can possibly surpass the US without too much effort. After all, the current nations that are saving the global financial crisis is Europe, not the American bailout plan.

Korea's military weak? You got be freaking kidding me both South Korea and North Korea while might not be able to compare to China or US its military power is still pretty damn strong.

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

More like Rise of Asia, since most of the world's population does live there. US won't be able to force its way around the world anymore ^^. At least, I hope so *is sick of America waging war everywhere for their own benefit*.

I still say it will take a while for countries in Asia to rise. The US's economy still influences many of the nations there. And lets be honest it will be the rise of China not Asia. Also I think that US wages war for the benefit for the upper classes instead of the middle and lower classes. Looking at their foreign policy in Guatemala, Iran, and Iraq I have to say it only benefited the rich. So if Americans government reform themselves I think America will change for better.
In the end I really don't see America losing its status as superpower, sure it might weaken but to say it will fall is just absurd.

[bayoab]

It is actually quite easy for a country like China to take the US down economically. All they have to do is call in all the securities we have floated to them and the US is suddenly in real trouble. The only catch is, they would be in equally much trouble as a result. It's in these other countries' interests for the US to have a healthy economy and be economically strong.

[yezhanquan]

America will remain a superpower. But, its relative power will drop, simply because the pie is getting bigger, and other nations are "catching up". Also, other nations are less interested in foreign "adventures", except to safeguard sources of raw materials.

The next president has to decide the best way to look "inward" and repair the foundations of the country, which have been damaged.

[Shadow Kira01]

For the US to remain its current position, they will have to repair the financial crisis first. With the global recession appearing as a widespread fear, nothing else is more important. Military strength does not mean much in this era, because the world should be working together in ensuring each other's citizens will live lives without global financial turmoil or endless wars. In other words, the only way for the world to embrace pacifism, people should abandon hatred, rivalry, and also nukes.

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Korea's military weak? You got be freaking kidding me both South Korea and North Korea while might not be able to compare to China or US its military power is still pretty damn strong.

Strong? The nukes are unfair. If you put the nukes aside, then they appear weak. With the nukes, they are definitely strong, mainly because they will have all of the innocent civilians as hostages, no nation will be able to fight and will be forced into a compromising position. However, that doesn't make Korea strong at all. China isn't strong either. I believe its more like the European Union's competition with the US. Since when was the term "superpower" defined as a single nation. It can be a group of nations working together, just like the former Soviet Union. The current Russia is weak, because it is no longer in a merged state. But even so, Russia can still be on par with China meaning that Korea's military power is still behind many nations. I am not looking down on the Korean military power, don't get me wrong. Just stating a fact from speculation.

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

More like Rise of Asia, since most of the world's population does live there. US won't be able to force its way around the world anymore ^^. At least, I hope so *is sick of America waging war everywhere for their own benefit*.

Rise of Asia is not possible. Asia is not united at all and will never be, mainly due to a major differences in language and currency. Unlike the European Union which can use English as the main language and also the Euros as the main currency, Asia doesn't have such a currency and neither can they share a language which every nation agrees upon.

[yezhanquan]

Asia is too big to be one union. I can forsee several regional unions, but that will take a lot of work and time. Don't forget that Europe paid its share of dues to reach its current situation.

As for the first point, alas, there is some truth in how the Metal Gear Solid series portrays our world. The military-industrial complex is all too real.

[mg1942]

(back to the candidates...)

Lets assume for a moment Obama gets elected. All current indicators say he will by no small margin.

How many from the (far) right are willing to give him a fair chance? Any current anti Obama people willing to give him a fair shot and base future opinions based on his performance?

Or are the (far) right going to play the same game the (far) left did with Bush 2.0?
That is... no matter what he does its going to be wrong.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

Rise of Asia is not possible. Asia is not united at all and will never be, mainly due to a major differences in language and currency. Unlike the European Union which can use English as the main language and also the Euros as the main currency, Asia doesn't have such a currency and neither can they share a language which every nation agrees upon.

Rise as in economic strength, not militaristic strength.

[SaintessHeart]

I am quite a supporter of Obama though. I don't like McCain and his dirty political tactics.

There might be a possibility that Obama may become like Lincoln or Roosevelt, assassinated for his ideals during his term of office. Being the first black US president puts him on the target list for racists, many of which who own high caliber weapons at home.

He has a whole lot of problems in his hands if he takes office, mostly relationship building (including taking off the 500+ LRBMs aiming at South Korea and Japan as well as making peace in the Middle East) and economic management. I am sure he will come off fine, provided the Americans are willing to put their skin-colour (yes British spelling) issues aside and take an integrated pro-active part in saving their country from economic collapse.

P.S North Korea's military is not that weak, but rather, vice-versa. If a direct invasion could result in a pyrrhic victory, it can be considered dangerous since statistics rank it as having the 2nd largest spec ops force in the world. I wouldn't say that their form of leadership had any morals, which makes them quite dangerous indeed. If it wasn't for the DMZ at the 38th Parallel held by the significantly technologically superior US troops, or had the South Koreans had equipment and training from the US troops, South Korea would be annexed by force even before the start of the 21st century, just like how Iraq took over Kuwait in a matter of DAYS. This is debatable though and is spoken from my point of view, and I do not mean any intended offence.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

There might be a possibility that Obama may become like Lincoln or Roosevelt, assassinated for his ideals during his term of office. Being the first black US president puts him on the target list for racists, many of which who own high caliber weapons at home.

Neither Roosevelts were assassinated. Franklin died of natural causes in office though.

Of other assassinated Presidents, McKinley was killed by a mentally disturbed individual, and Kennedy's assassination is a favorite subject of conspiracy theories. Moreover, for assassinated Presidential Candidates, the assassination of Robert F. "Bobby" Kennedy is also a favorite subject of conspiracy theories.

But, well, considering how Obama is such an obvious target for loonies, the Secret Service, responsible for Presidential Candidates' safety since Bobby's death raised such an uproar (we all love 1968), is probably devoting a lot of resources to make sure that this kind of thing isn't going to happen. I'd assume that they were probably quite disgruntled at the McCain camp for running such a negative campaign flaming up an already higher than normal risk further.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

P.S North Korea's military is not that weak, but rather, vice-versa. If a direct invasion could result in a pyrrhic victory, it can be considered dangerous since statistics rank it as having the 2nd largest spec ops force in the world. I wouldn't say that their form of leadership had any morals, which makes them quite dangerous indeed. If it wasn't for the DMZ at the 38th Parallel held by the significantly technologically superior US troops, or had the South Koreans had equipment and training from the US troops, South Korea would be annexed by force even before the start of the 21st century, just like how Iraq took over Kuwait in a matter of DAYS. This is debatable though and is spoken from my point of view, and I do not mean any intended offence.

North Korea can barely feed it's troops, let alone supply them in the field. They might be a formidable force in a defensive operation, but offensively, I doubt they could get 20 miles before they started exhausting their logistics even if South Korea didn't fight back. Just compare South Korea's GDP to North Korea's. Let's not forget about population and industry. In a war South Korea would win without US assistance. North Korea just doens't have the population or industry to support a war against the south.

South Korea does not rely solely on US weapon imports either, they manufacture their own tanks, and a good portion of their aircraft. Their F-16s are locally manufactured under license, and they have a local derrivative the T-50, which is used as a trainer and strike aircraft. The have some old f-4s and the brand new F-15Ks which were built in the US, but they clearly have the industy to replace their losses without relying on imports. North Korea on the other hand uses soley imported aircraft, with the bulk being mig-19s and mig-21s, or Chinese copies of them. The North has 40 mig-29s including trainers, compaired to South Korea's 180 f-16s and 39 f-15ks with more on the way. They would have air superiority over the entire peninsula by day 2. The north could do a lot of damage, with or without nukes Seoul would probably be reduced almost completely to rubble for example, but in the end they'd still lose to the more populous and industralized South.

Of course this is completely off topic.

[Autumn Demon]

Trying to compile the best gaffes of the campaign so far. Did i miss any good ones?

John Murtha on Western Pennsylvania
McCain on Western Pennsylvania
Palin on America
McCain in debate #3
McCain on Zapatero
Biden on Obama
Introduction
Introduction
Introduction
Obama at rally
Obama on hicks
Clinton in Bosnia

[Kaioshin Sama]

John McCain's speech in Pennsylvania was the stuff of legends.

[Demongod86]

LOL @ Senator Government.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

There might be a possibility that Obama may become like Lincoln or Roosevelt, assassinated for his ideals during his term of office. Being the first black US president puts him on the target list for racists, many of which who own high caliber weapons at home.

No wonder Obama wants to ban the use of guns...