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Old 2012-10-13, 08:41   Link #30841
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".

Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.
Our confession said Kumasawa was a bribed accomplice but she didn't think people were murdered for real but they were merely faking it and were covered in make up to make the illusion look more real.
Likely the same was for Gohda. He was offered money to take part to a murder game. He found out too late the murder game wasn't a game in which people weren't pretending to be dead but were killed for real.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:31   Link #30842
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.
Did you read Our Confessions?

From there we can kind of conclude that, for each game, we have all the servants+Nanjo+One of the Siblings+Wife/Husband, involved.
In this case, it's just Rosa.

It wouldn't be surprising if the farce was all planned from the start.


And the Master Keys from the servants had not been confiscated yet by that point. (The door could have been locked by Shannon, Genji, Gohda, no problem, from outside)
This event caused Rosa to receive the Master Keys from the servants.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:05   Link #30843
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Though it doesn't explain the locked room. I believe before this happened Rosa took all of the master keys and then sent the servants off together, they went to the kitchen, phantom Kanon shows up, Kuwasama and Nanjo "die", and the servants take the bodies to the servant room after the murders supposedly took place. Even if the murders didn't happen there was still a letter on the table in the servant's room when Rosa and the rest investigate. The keys to the servant room were locked in the servant room, and Rosa had the master keys.
...Yeah, you're misremembering this, sorry. The master keys were confiscated after this happened.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:26   Link #30844
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
First Twilight: Door wasn't locked, Rosa lied about it. Technically the red truth only said it couldn't be unlocked without the chapel key so theoretically Rosa isn't needed here but meh.
Interestingly, the anime version of this statement actually includes both "locking and unlocking".

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Btw the author fucked up here . Since there is a turn lock on the back it is possible to unlock the door without the Chapel key.
I'm not sure if it was the author's intention with the chapel, but some doors are built with locks that have no way to unlock from the inside (the garden shed is such an example).

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
To Be honest George is the only one who could have done this considering everyone else was proven dead by either Red or Detective's Authority.
Battler may have been "the detective", but he did not have "Detective's Authority". There is a meta-discussion in EP6 that confirms that Battler didn't have those super powers during EPs 1-4.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Episode 4
You're forgetting something important: Kyrie's phone call was back-to-back with Jessica's.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:28   Link #30845
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The chapel door IS unlocked from the inside during the EP2 fantasy scene with George/Shannon/Gohda, but...well, it is a fantasy scene. I'd take the word of the red over that. Not that it really matters whether you can unlock it from the inside anyway.
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Old 2012-10-13, 15:11   Link #30846
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Well about Knox's Rules, wasn't it stated in the 5th games ?????? that Beatrice's mystery doesn't necessarily follow Knox's rules and they are more of just general guidelines of how to think? So I don't see why this is an issue.
No, that's not what's stated. Battler accuses the Knox rules of being arrogant, and Dlanor and company say they exist to create a fair game, and Beatrice wanted this game to be solvable, so they're valuable tools. Use them.
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Old 2012-10-13, 16:42   Link #30847
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".
I don't think using the fantasy narrative as clues is a violation of Knox ... in fact, Knox's 2nd is only even used once because it doesn't have much place in the story. However, I think Godha's general demeanor during the scene where they tried to explain things to Rosa was a very obvious hint. Of course, it'd also be suspicious if all three of them were so stoic, but his blubbering kinda highlighted him as the odd man out in SOME way.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.
I don't see why, if it's hinted properly. There have certainly been mysteries that involved an insane amount of accomplices.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.
She HAS to be, at least a little. She claimed to have spoken to Kinzo, and to have confirmed "Shannon and Genji were indeed with Father. That is their alibi, they were totally talking to Father, just like I'd told them to."

Also, the First Twilight in EP2 probably isn't faked ... we even have a red confirming that.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
I have a few questions about Shkanon,

Why is Kanon in Kyrie's group and why is he the first to die and labeled as the 9th victim?
Well, in the narrative as presented, Kyries group was PRESENTED as Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon, and Kanon. These people didn't die in the First Twilight, and are not part of the group in the Guesthouse (which is the kids, plus Ghoda and Kumasawa)

If I had to explain his seemingly specific death, I'd say it's both a trick that uses Kanon's distinct personhood to play a word game, and represents the point Shannon essentially decided "Well, someone has to be 4th Twilight, guess it'll be Kanon."
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Old 2012-10-14, 00:38   Link #30848
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You're right, but if we're going to violate a Knox Rule, we better have an iron-clad case for doing so.
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Old 2012-10-14, 03:44   Link #30849
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
She HAS to be, at least a little. She claimed to have spoken to Kinzo, and to have confirmed "Shannon and Genji were indeed with Father. That is their alibi, they were totally talking to Father, just like I'd told them to."
And also, the closed room for the chapel couldn't easily work out without Rosa's cooperation.

My guess is she solved the riddle and Yasu becomes her furniture or something.
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:44   Link #30850
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
And also, the closed room for the chapel couldn't easily work out without Rosa's cooperation.

My guess is she solved the riddle and Yasu becomes her furniture or something.
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:58   Link #30851
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I don't think Rosa solved the epitaph in EP2...Much more likely that she was just working as Beatrice's accomplice because she needed the gold.
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Old 2012-10-14, 10:03   Link #30852
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
That exactly why she says that stuff to Maria. Probably they're out of time because Rosa wanted to return for the golden ingot. And she intended to risk her life staying there to look for it after she fell down, that's why she's urging Maria to leave her behind.

This was also sorta implied in her quiz in EP8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.
Hideyoshi and Eva are pretty obvious accomplices in EP1, or at least they are going along with Yasu's story. After all, they don't have an alibi for midnight, except the one they confirm for each other, plus they're totally trying to frame Natsuhi.

Only thing I'm not sure about is why she decides to get rid of them.

(Then again, fake deaths......)

Quote:
3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.
Erika, no, Bern has no intention to solve Battler's game, she wants to destroy it with a humiliating logic Error, that's why she's looking the other way from Shkanon purposefully.

And suddenly I'm starting to get fonder of Genius Battler Theory.

Quote:
That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight.
EP3 was the 'easy' mode chapter because of all the people who gave up in EP2, according to Ryukishi. Yeah, regardless of all the red lies, it was pretty blatant at some points.

Plus it simply paints you a picture about Battler's promise.
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Old 2012-10-14, 10:35   Link #30853
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The more I read into Shkanon, the more it makes sense. A few things still don't make that much sense like:

1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.
It's a tricky case. I think that might have been intended as one of the last things you unravel, after you've discovered the existence of Beatrice's infinite accomplice machine in EP4 and you already suspect Shannon of the murders.

On the other hand, Hideyoshi is really excessively theatrical in that scene. I also always thought it was weird how he never ever drops his fake Kansai accent, even when he's supposedly under stress, but that could be chalked up to Yasu not knowing it was fake when she wrote the games.
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Old 2012-10-14, 11:13   Link #30854
Drifloon
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I always felt like the scene with Eva and Hideyoshi in their room in EP1 was pretty indicative of them being accomplices. Just the way they're acting dooesn't really fit for people who genuinely thought six people had just been brutally murdered...Not to mention Eva's giggly unconcerned attitude when discussing the case with Battler.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:36   Link #30855
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
The fighting game pushes the idea that Rosa was an accomplice, possibly under duress, that didn't really know that Beatrice was actually Shkanon. It made it look like she thought the actual Beatrice that she killed was still alive and threatening to kill her and Maria if she didn't do exactly what she said.

I dont know, you could possibly fit EP2 with something like this. Some of the things Rosa says to herself are pretty big tells that she's thinking of that Beatrice. It would fit with her seeing Shannon dead and still continue to play the part even though "Beatrice" was already dead.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:47   Link #30856
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
I also think she was just an accomplice. For Rosa in particular, it's probably not even necessary to mention the bomb to earn her cooperation. To answer your question though, I think that scene
1. Was a hint towards the existence of the bomb (I remember, at the time, I was convinced that the faulty boiler must coincidentally explode around midnight, or something)
2. A cool dramatic scene. It really shouldnt be forgotten that the forgeries are also intended to be entertaining and engaging, and that over the top fight scene with the troubled mother and daughter working together and reconciling was really good, in that regard. It's probably why we get time-magic-Kyrie and boudakai-tenkaichi-Krauss, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
2. EP4 the red about Kanon. Kealym sorta explained this though.

3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.

That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight. EP5 the viewpoints were subjective so that doesn't really matter.
The red truth about Kanon in EP4, that's my own interpretation. I couldn't tell you whether many others agree with that...

About EP6, though, it's very wasy for Erika to not notice Kanon. Hideyoshi is the one who seperated the people into the rooms, and Erika herself did not physically check the room with the male servants in it, she only did a Meta check via Battler's red truth, where he said "everybody else". Erika also admits that it's possible Kanon was hiding in the same room she was in, under the bed or something.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Hideyoshi and Eva are pretty obvious accomplices in EP1, or at least they are going along with Yasu's story. After all, they don't have an alibi for midnight, except the one they confirm for each other, plus they're totally trying to frame Natsuhi.

Only thing I'm not sure about is why she decides to get rid of them.
Well, she needs a Second Twilight. What would be really interesting is if George hadn't resisted, and gone to the guest room with them. It makes me think that in EP2, George was also supposed to survive until the end, but she wasn't expecting him to leave with the servants ... that is, maybe she planned for Genji to be dead in Natsuhi's room as well, and Nanjo/Kumasawa's location would've been disclosed to the survivor group with another cryptic letter. Maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Erika, no, Bern has no intention to solve Battler's game, she wants to destroy it with a humiliating logic Error, that's why she's looking the other way from Shkanon purposefully.

And suddenly I'm starting to get fonder of Genius Battler Theory.
Well, that's your assumption, and I won't argue against it really, but ... I always figured that Bern ALSO hates losing ... and if she knew about Shkanon, she would've used it to win the logic Error. Erika certainly doesn't seem to know about Shkanon, or she would've won easily. And while Bern DOES want a loss that's utterly humiliating ... I dunno, I think shoving Beato's big bad storming of the chapel right back down her throat with a "Ha, your so-called solution is as valuable as wet tissue paper, it's so obvious!" would've been satisfying for her ... and she has no trouble mocking it in the very next EP, after all...
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Old 2012-10-14, 22:30   Link #30857
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The more I read into Shkanon, the more it makes sense. A few things still don't make that much sense like:

1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.

2. EP4 the red about Kanon. Kealym sorta explained this though.

3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.

That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight. EP5 the viewpoints were subjective so that doesn't really matter.
I think the trick is that the whole game is mostly a roleplay game so piece Erika isn't 'real' and can't really see things on her own but solely when the player instructed her to do so.

However Erika is shown to depend more on teh gamemaster's declarations than on her own piece's observation maybe because for her they're one and the same (Battler tells her what her piece sees). So she doesn't need to have her piece check who enters in the room because Battler will provide her with the names of who's in the room. It's a mistake because if she had asked who her piece saw entering in the room demanding for her piece to check the people entering she would have noticed Kanon had 'disappeared'.

I think pieces are like 'black Battler'... who is going to kill everyone because... witch hunters wants so and not because he really has a free will and decided so.
In the same way piece Erika has no free will and can't investigate if her player doesn't allow her.
Dlanor after all insisted Erika (Meta) is also a piece who can't do what her master doesn't allow her to do.
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Old 2012-10-15, 06:11   Link #30858
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Well, she needs a Second Twilight. What would be really interesting is if George hadn't resisted, and gone to the guest room with them.
Hmmm... It's pretty interesting to think about that (I always thought there was some meaning to Eva suggesting that George come with them ever since I read that!)

After awfully like Yasu to change her plans depending on some small thing like that.

Quote:
It makes me think that in EP2, George was also supposed to survive until the end, but she wasn't expecting him to leave with the servants ... that is, maybe she planned for Genji to be dead in Natsuhi's room as well, and Nanjo/Kumasawa's location would've been disclosed to the survivor group with another cryptic letter. Maybe.
Maybe. After all, it ties in pretty well with the fatalistic attitude Yasu has.

Quote:
Well, that's your assumption, and I won't argue against it really, but ... I always figured that Bern ALSO hates losing ... and if she knew about Shkanon, she would've used it to win the logic Error. Erika certainly doesn't seem to know about Shkanon, or she would've won easily. And while Bern DOES want a loss that's utterly humiliating ... I dunno, I think shoving Beato's big bad storming of the chapel right back down her throat with a "Ha, your so-called solution is as valuable as wet tissue paper, it's so obvious!" would've been satisfying for her ... and she has no trouble mocking it in the very next EP, after all...
It's not really an assumption, Erika does openly declare that she is going for a Logic Error, not a victory. My guess is Bern didn't suspect they'd (ass)pull that trick on her of all things, it's doubtful if she could suspect it even works that way, even if she knew about Shkanon.

I'm also not sure as to what she really knew, but I think it's more possible she knew about Shkanon since it is always avoided strategically. It's unlikely that Erika, who was so diligent about everything and would even go outside in the middle of a typhoon to put tape on the windows just to frame Natsuhi would skip counting the names one by one and resort to something as vague as 'everyone else'. And that on the room the person in question was, of all rooms. Maybe that's why it bothers Battler so much. If the big trick was exposed by a word-play like that game's over for the witch side, but it's still a proper defeat. A Logic Error should seem way more enticing to Bernkastel.
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Old 2012-10-15, 08:49   Link #30859
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.
Well... I mean, there are lots of ways around that...
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Old 2012-10-15, 09:13   Link #30860
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Ok, here's the bit of the bomb explanation from Our Confessions I had but didn't translate earlier. It's not very long, but I decided to release it now since there's not really a reason not to as it's unrelated to the epilogue.

The epilogue will be done soon. Maybe a day, maybe a week.

Just a reminder: This is when Beatrice had taken Krauss and Natsuhi down to the VIP room at gunpoint to show them the gold and had just claimed that she had control of the bomb device.
Spoiler for Bomb talk:


I find the whole thing where Genji just kind of magically appears there because it's convenient for the author pretty amusing.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-10-15 at 17:56. Reason: Added "long ago" into Krauss's first line.
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