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[UKE]Auel · 2004-12-14, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madell

i'll bet there are over 50000+ people on orb

Maybe all together, but not on the particular island the EA was focusing their attack on.

Madell · 2004-12-14, 14:11

l0l on that island there is a huge city....

ForceFreedom · 2004-12-14, 15:07

Ok, so let's say you're a leader of a small country that's been given an ultimadum by a far stronger force. You're in the final hours and you don't plan on giving in.
Do you say "OMFGWTFGTFO!!!" now, and hopefully have your people evacuate before weapons are free, or after the first fight, when transport ships can be blown out of the water and cities have been levelled (probably killing a good number of people you were trying to evacuate)?

jpwong · 2004-12-14, 16:28

If you watch Episode 38 of Seed and Episode 1 of Destiny, you can actually time where this "event" happenned with the scene markers.

01:29 of Destiny corresponds to approximatly 19:00 in Seed when Calamity gets dropped onto the ground. That's where there's all sorts of divergences. It shows Calamity's first 2 shots firing at Freedom, whereas in Seed he fired into the ground. The only thing I can really say though is that at the "time" Shinn's family gets obliterated, Freedom is fighting the other two and only Orb MS and Strike are shooting towards Calamity. Not to say they can't just arbitrarily rewrite that scene as they please for Destiny's plot :P

Raxtenko · 2004-12-14, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpwong

If you watch Episode 38 of Seed and Episode 1 of Destiny, you can actually time where this "event" happenned with the scene markers.

01:29 of Destiny corresponds to approximatly 19:00 in Seed when Calamity gets dropped onto the ground. That's where there's all sorts of divergences. It shows Calamity's first 2 shots firing at Freedom, whereas in Seed he fired into the ground. The only thing I can really say though is that at the "time" Shinn's family gets obliterated, Freedom is fighting the other two and only Orb MS and Strike are shooting towards Calamity. Not to say they can't just arbitrarily rewrite that scene as they please for Destiny's plot :P

Like I said before, in another thread, it's called retcon. It happens all the time.

ZeusIrae · 2004-12-14, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madell

l0l on that island there is a huge city....

wrong.most of fight is in Onogoro island and its miltary facility.

jhcl · 2004-12-14, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madell

i'll bet there are over 50000+ people on orb

Maybe on that island there was 50000 considerign it was mainly a military facility but it would be totally unreasonable to say there was 50000 in the whole or orb. The rest of the world must be real pussies if 50000 pop country is considered a major threat.

Im sure considering orb are the only 'good guys' in the show then it obviously must be modelled on japan

so the total pop would be around 100+ mil.
I dont think any country with less than 50 mil would have the resources to have their own space colony either.

pyu · 2004-12-14, 19:01

Take a look at the maps on the Gundam Official site - there's even a scale that indicates the main island of Orb is roughly around 100 kilometers across.

I don't know about you, but that's pretty large. I live in Singapore and we manage to squeeze around 5 million inhabitants on an island smaller than Orb's main island.

So I would say the Orb Union has a decent population, probably much more than 5 million if they have a high population density. Although I have no idea what was their primary industry - I mean, smack dab in the middle of the Pacific with no discernable natural resources, maybe Orb depends much on its people to drive its economy...

ZeusIrae, it's not really indicated where the fighting was focused on when the EA came and invaded. Only in Episode 40 was it explicitly stated that the Archangel was retreating to Onogoro island, and heading out to use the Kugaya mass driver. The fighting could have been happening east of Onogoro and near that city indicated by the map. Thus, Shinn and his family might be evacuating from that city or it might have been a nation-wide evacuation.

Here's more food for thought -> being so small, Orb is definitely not self-sufficient. The EA could bring it to its knees by placing economic sanctions on it this time round. Not that they need one since Prime Minister Unata Seiran is so pro-Atlantic Federation...

Sephir0th666777 · 2004-12-14, 19:13

To tell the truth, it could be anyone

lets start ruling out people

The Beam that killed them was yellow, so that Rules out Fragga (Strike's beam rifle shoots green)

The only two it really could have been if we are going to get this picky is Calamaty or Raider

jpwong · 2004-12-14, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephir0th666777

To tell the truth, it could be anyone

lets start ruling out people

The Beam that killed them was yellow, so that Rules out Fragga (Strike's beam rifle shoots green)

The only two it really could have been if we are going to get this picky is Calamaty or Raider

I don't think they actually show any beams hitting the ground, just the explosion after a clip of Freedom and Calamity fireing (and you can't even tell which way they're shooting).

srb · 2004-12-14, 20:08

Well, both of them shoot downwards but Freedom must be ruled out since if the scene is retconned he must have fired at Calamity, and Calamity was not close enough to the family for the explosion to be so severe so close to where Shinn and his family is.

We just don't know.

mikeon · 2004-12-14, 20:28

here's an idea, maybe the shooting that was shown in destiny, was not shown in seed. You can't really assume that every time you saw kira shot on screen, is the only time he has shot.

[DOT].L · 2004-12-14, 20:59

all this is probably done purposely by the producers to confuse ppl.. this is my take on the whole thing: "intro shows freedom + calamity firing -> ground explode -> shin's family die -> shin crys." this lead most ppl to believe it was probably kira's fault that shin's family died, therefore in the series shin will find out and hate kira and bla bla bla they fight. In the end shin will find out it was not kira's shots taht killed his family (by then there would probably be a flashback showing the "truth") but it was calamity's beams that killd his family.. obvious the show cannot start by showing clearly it was calamity since it is already destroyed and its stoner pilot dead.. this will mean shin has no clear reason to fight and in turn there is no point in showing all that prologue.. this method is used quite often in anime so its really no surprise they used it here..

Or i can be dead wrong and it turns out kira did kill shin's family because of his noobish aim = Shin VS Kira TO THE END!! OWNAGE!!

sparkswy · 2004-12-14, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForceFreedom

Ok I rewatched a bit of Gundam Seed today just for shits and giggles, and I decided to pay attention to the first fight between EA and Orb, when the time that Azreal gives Orb to side with the EA expires.
I assume that this is when the events in the first scene of GSD transpire, since the civilians wouldn't be evacuating during the other battles to follow, and also Athrun hasn't joined the fight yet.
So there's a familiar scene where we see Calamity in the forest, while Freedom dukes it out with Raider and Forbidden in the sky.

GSD sets up the scene to look like Kira killed the Asuka's with a missed HI-Mat while trying to shoot Calamity. Well...the only time he uses a HI-Mat in the battle is at the start, to pwn a bunch of Strike Daggers on some rocky terrain where the Astray girls are (the whole scene where the girls are like "OMFG Kira=teh awesome"). For the rest of the fight, Kira is engaged with Forbidden and Raider high above the ocean.

Now the intresting part. Fraga decides to engage Calamity with Strike. They both fly around at ground level blasting everything except eachother. I know its kinda out there, but I think we can safely rule out Calamity killing Shinns family (because that would be boring), but what about Fraga? He even said himself: "I'm just a n00b". Is it possible that Fraga might have blown the Asuka's to bits?

The 5-beam shot Kira fired on the beginning of DESTINY might have been one he did 'off-screen' during the battle at Orb,so we can't discover it by watching SEED.however,whether this shot took Shinn's family,we still can't figure it out.I think the true accidental killer will still remains unknown even DESTINY meets its end.Anyway,Shinn considers Freedom one of the murders,at this point we could expect a WONDERFUL fight between him and Kira.

Madell · 2004-12-15, 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

wrong.most of fight is in Onogoro island and its miltary facility.

hmmmm why are civilians on a military facility ??????

ZeusIrae · 2004-12-15, 05:46

The point is:Most of the fight wasn't in the city.And most of the civilians were already
evacuated(I am sure about that,they say it before the battle).When you watch the ep.You seed that the tanks are on the coast in an industrial area or in the forest,not
in a city.ANd the EA is only intrested by the mass-driver(perhaps morgenroete but it is on the same island).Why would orb waste its time protecting other areas?

And what was doing shinn and is family there?in a forest.near a battle.It's weird
Why are they so late?even if the evacuation take time they should be at least in the harbour.But no,they are running in a forest.

edit:madell:that's not fun if the enmy surrender.

Madell · 2004-12-15, 06:06

ive editted this whole thing..u win

2004-12-15, 05:46	Link #36
ZeusIrae Loyal Haruhist. Join Date: Nov 2004 Age: 37	The point is:Most of the fight wasn't in the city.And most of the civilians were already evacuated(I am sure about that,they say it before the battle).When you watch the ep.You seed that the tanks are on the coast in an industrial area or in the forest,not in a city.ANd the EA is only intrested by the mass-driver(perhaps morgenroete but it is on the same island).Why would orb waste its time protecting other areas? And what was doing shinn and is family there?in a forest.near a battle.It's weird Why are they so late?even if the evacuation take time they should be at least in the harbour.But no,they are running in a forest. edit:madell:that's not fun if the enmy surrender. __________________ "Politics always takes vengeance on those who belittle it." Julian Minci, Legend of the galactic heroes . Last edited by ZeusIrae; 2004-12-15 at 09:49.

2004-12-15, 06:06	Link #37
Madell Member Join Date: Dec 2004	ive editted this whole thing..u win Last edited by Madell; 2004-12-15 at 08:06.

2004-12-14, 14:11	Link #22
Madell Member Join Date: Dec 2004	l0l on that island there is a huge city....

2004-12-14, 15:07	Link #23
ForceFreedom Member Join Date: Oct 2004	Ok, so let's say you're a leader of a small country that's been given an ultimadum by a far stronger force. You're in the final hours and you don't plan on giving in. Do you say "OMFGWTFGTFO!!!" now, and hopefully have your people evacuate before weapons are free, or after the first fight, when transport ships can be blown out of the water and cities have been levelled (probably killing a good number of people you were trying to evacuate)?

2004-12-14, 16:28	Link #24
jpwong Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	If you watch Episode 38 of Seed and Episode 1 of Destiny, you can actually time where this "event" happenned with the scene markers. 01:29 of Destiny corresponds to approximatly 19:00 in Seed when Calamity gets dropped onto the ground. That's where there's all sorts of divergences. It shows Calamity's first 2 shots firing at Freedom, whereas in Seed he fired into the ground. The only thing I can really say though is that at the "time" Shinn's family gets obliterated, Freedom is fighting the other two and only Orb MS and Strike are shooting towards Calamity. Not to say they can't just arbitrarily rewrite that scene as they please for Destiny's plot :P

2004-12-14, 19:01	Link #28
pyu Crouchety Old Man Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Singapore	Take a look at the maps on the Gundam Official site - there's even a scale that indicates the main island of Orb is roughly around 100 kilometers across. I don't know about you, but that's pretty large. I live in Singapore and we manage to squeeze around 5 million inhabitants on an island smaller than Orb's main island. So I would say the Orb Union has a decent population, probably much more than 5 million if they have a high population density. Although I have no idea what was their primary industry - I mean, smack dab in the middle of the Pacific with no discernable natural resources, maybe Orb depends much on its people to drive its economy... ZeusIrae, it's not really indicated where the fighting was focused on when the EA came and invaded. Only in Episode 40 was it explicitly stated that the Archangel was retreating to Onogoro island, and heading out to use the Kugaya mass driver. The fighting could have been happening east of Onogoro and near that city indicated by the map. Thus, Shinn and his family might be evacuating from that city or it might have been a nation-wide evacuation. Here's more food for thought -> being so small, Orb is definitely not self-sufficient. The EA could bring it to its knees by placing economic sanctions on it this time round. Not that they need one since Prime Minister Unata Seiran is so pro-Atlantic Federation...

2004-12-14, 19:13	Link #29
Sephir0th666777 Proffesional Fist-shaker Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: That place with the trees Age: 35	To tell the truth, it could be anyone lets start ruling out people The Beam that killed them was yellow, so that Rules out Fragga (Strike's beam rifle shoots green) The only two it really could have been if we are going to get this picky is Calamaty or Raider

2004-12-14, 20:08	Link #31
srb I can see time itself! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kingdom of Sweden Age: 37	Well, both of them shoot downwards but Freedom must be ruled out since if the scene is retconned he must have fired at Calamity, and Calamity was not close enough to the family for the explosion to be so severe so close to where Shinn and his family is. We just don't know.

2004-12-14, 20:28	Link #32
mikeon Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: san francisco Age: 38	here's an idea, maybe the shooting that was shown in destiny, was not shown in seed. You can't really assume that every time you saw kira shot on screen, is the only time he has shot.

2004-12-14, 20:59	Link #33
[DOT].L Delightfully lost... Artist Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: All over the place...	all this is probably done purposely by the producers to confuse ppl.. this is my take on the whole thing: "intro shows freedom + calamity firing -> ground explode -> shin's family die -> shin crys." this lead most ppl to believe it was probably kira's fault that shin's family died, therefore in the series shin will find out and hate kira and bla bla bla they fight. In the end shin will find out it was not kira's shots taht killed his family (by then there would probably be a flashback showing the "truth") but it was calamity's beams that killd his family.. obvious the show cannot start by showing clearly it was calamity since it is already destroyed and its stoner pilot dead.. this will mean shin has no clear reason to fight and in turn there is no point in showing all that prologue.. this method is used quite often in anime so its really no surprise they used it here.. Or i can be dead wrong and it turns out kira did kill shin's family because of his noobish aim = Shin VS Kira TO THE END!! OWNAGE!!