[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Now you're just being silly. He hid the truth, lionized hiding the truth, refused to commit to whether he had even approached the truth, and the story ended. If you're saying "Well maybe he'll give direct answers in Rei, so you can't say he said he'd never reveal it," all you're doing is making excuses for a hack. You should know better, and you should demand better.

I'm not talking about you if you feel you're not insulted. There's no accounting for taste. But there's a lot of people who do feel insulted, and they are not just raging against the tempest here. There is a lot to be critical of, and for a conclusion it's left a lot of people wondering if there even was a "conclusion" thought out.

Originally Posted by musouka

You seem to be saying that because some things didn't have answers, nothing has an answer.

No, that's just some nonsense you made up to trivialize my opinion. The fact is that there are unnecessary amounts of ambiguity because he did not establish a proper tone of finality, and that's a direct consequence of his dodges leading up to that point. He systematically dismantles any hope of trusting him before finally putting the reader in the situation where now, finally, we need to trust this or that. Maybe you still trusted him by that point, but you shouldn't have.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Now you're just being silly. He hid the truth, lionized hiding the truth, refused to commit to whether he had even approached the truth, and the story ended. If you're saying "Well maybe he'll give direct answers in Rei, so you can't say he said he'd never reveal it," all you're doing is making excuses for a hack. You should know better, and you should demand better.

The truth logically follows from what you read. EP7 gave a perfectly fine explanation in its Tea Party as to what really happened, and I still think that's mostly the truth of the matter. Ange's reaction to reading Eva's diary just confirms what we saw. Battler's reaction to Beato at the end of EP8 clears up the extent of her involvement in what happened.

If you can't accept those answers, that's one thing. But pretending he didn't give them to us is quite another.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Here, look: Who says anyone named Ushiromiya Battler existed at all? Maybe Hachijou Tohya is just a nutcase. I guess we'll never know because Ryukishi won't commit to that sort of thing for fear people won't like it. I should not even be permitted to suggest something like this. It simply should not have left me with the feeling that such a thing could even be considered. That's proper closure. Not a lingering question as to whether I missed something to make everything make sense. Not "draw your own conclusions."

This reminds me back of the panic the Author Theory would instill in people, so much that they would deny it outright. "Doesn't this mean that everything is fictional and it's allllll useless?" The thing to remember is that back then we had that small sliver poking into the catbox that was Beatrice's stories. And then after we found out that 3-6 were Hachijou's stories and we doubted 'her.'

What EP8 essentially did was it verified that EP3-6 were Tooya's writing, possibly using Battler's memories. So we can hold on to something else now.

Anyways, I really don't see EP8 telling us to 'draw your own conclusions.' Because from the start, Rokkenjima Prime never really concerned us... only the things Beatrice wanted to tell us. Now we know, there are more things Battler, via Tooya, wanted to tell us too. Or tell Beatrice/Ange, and by extension us too.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

The truth logically follows from what you read. EP7 gave a perfectly fine explanation in its Tea Party as to what really happened, and I still think that's mostly the truth of the matter. Ange's reaction to reading Eva's diary just confirms what we saw. Battler's reaction to Beato at the end of EP8 clears up the extent of her involvement in what happened.

If you can't accept those answers, that's one thing. But pretending he didn't give them to us is quite another.

You're pretty much the only person that holds to that particular opinion (though there are those who agree with one part of it or another). So unless you're making the claim that you're just smarter than everyone else, the truth was obviously not so clear as to be properly comprehensible to any intelligent reader. That constitutes a failure in at least that respect.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Anyways, I really don't see EP8 telling us to 'draw your own conclusions.' Because from the start, Rokkenjima Prime never really concerned us... only the things Beatrice wanted to tell us. Now we know, there are more things Battler, via Tooya, wanted to tell us too. Or tell Beatrice/Ange, and by extension us too.

Then why does it even matter to have that subplot? Just drop the bomb on us: Battler is Tohya. Let us puzzle it out ourselves. We didn't need a lame explanation, if what you say is true.

And just to be clear, the difference here is that there are some things that need to be told and some things that might just be better without. "What was Battler doing all those years?" is not necessarily something we have to know, and in fact, anything that we think up in our heads is probably better than what we wound up actually being told. My problem is really that he told us things he should have shown us, made certain things too ambiguous that needed to be clear, and made things that could have been left ambiguous clear to no particular benefit for the story.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

You're pretty much the only person that holds to that particular opinion

Nope, not at all. Other people I talk to hold to it, and I've seen Japanese discussions along those lines as well.

Don't get me wrong. There were things I definitely disliked about EP8. It felt rushed and relied too much on Ange making some really moronic choices in the middle. Beato and Battler's ending was perfect, but felt out of place with the focus of the ep, ect, ect. But I'm not upset because Ryukishi decided to forgo the traditional "line up the suspects and exposition dump at them for fifteen pages."

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Now you're just being silly. He hid the truth, lionized hiding the truth, refused to commit to whether he had even approached the truth, and the story ended. If you're saying "Well maybe he'll give direct answers in Rei, so you can't say he said he'd never reveal it," all you're doing is making excuses for a hack. You should know better, and you should demand better.

I'm sorry, but the amount of vitriol here is palpable.

No, he never hid the truth, he never lionized hiding the truth. He told us from the beginning, that the truth lay not in the events of Rokkenjima Prime but in the mind of Beatrice. That was our primary concern. Where did the events of Rokkenjima Prime even come into play except for the end of EP7 and the middle of EP8?

"all you're doing is making excuses for a hack." <-- So, you resort to insults now, in order to support your argument? I mean, if you want to rage, go ahead, just troll. But, don't expect people to agree with you just because you are being vehement.

"You should know better, and you should demand better." <-- I'm sorry, but I'm quite satisfied at this point. If he refuses to give any more answers in the future, then I may have some gripes, but I don't see EP8 as the end yet. End of the character development, yes. And end of the story too. But not the end of the answers.

This is because my main interest in Umineko isn't Rokkenjima Prime. That's like asking how the Heisenberg Compensator work in Star Trek. It's silly.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

But I'm not upset because Ryukishi decided to forgo the traditional "line up the suspects and exposition dump at them for fifteen pages."

You're putting words in my mouth again. Or in someone's mouth, at any rate. There's ways to convey authenticity and reliability while presenting something and there's ways to convey unreliability and questionable narration. Sometimes you want one or the other, and it can be beneficial to the story either way. It's very, very difficult to do the former, however, when you've tipped your hand as not being particularly competent at distinguishing the two.

Basically, it could have been exactly the same rundown as <insert theory here>, but conveyed in a fashion which made clear that this memory, whatever it happened to be, was "it." If that was his intention, he shot himself in the foot for me with some of the shoddiness, melodrama, and excess leading up to it. "Amnesia!" is just the unpleasant icing on the squash-flavored cake. I mean hey, it's still cake, but there's going to be a lot of it left over once the folks in the office who really like squash get their pieces.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

"all you're doing is making excuses for a hack." <-- So, you resort to insults now, in order to support your argument? I mean, if you want to rage, go ahead, just troll. But, don't expect people to agree with you just because you are being vehement.

I expect people to agree with me because they agree that he has shown a lack of competency. "There might be an answer, but I'll get back to you later" is a hack's trick. It's "I better hurry up and think of something!" It's very suspect. He shouldn't allow people to have that suspicion at all, and there's a very easy way to do that.

"You should know better, and you should demand better." <-- I'm sorry, but I'm quite satisfied at this point. If he refuses to give any more answers in the future, then I may have some gripes, but I don't see EP8 as the end yet. End of the character development, yes. And end of the story too. But not the end of the answers.

And where exactly do you expect those to come from if not the ending? I guess that's the problem when things get episodic.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

No, he never hid the truth, he never lionized hiding the truth. He told us from the beginning, that the truth lay not in the events of Rokkenjima Prime but in the mind of Beatrice. That was our primary concern. Where did the events of Rokkenjima Prime even come into play except for the end of EP7 and the middle of EP8?

To be fair here, most people were trying to find out what the real events were back in the day of EP1-4. In fact, even after EP5, most people were still trying to find out possible common factors between the episodes to try to draw a possible scheme on how R-prime worked out. There were also those who thought kakeras were a possibility and that every game was a kakera.

So, finding Beatrice's motive wasn't really our clear objective from the beginning.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Basically, it could have been exactly the same rundown as <insert theory here>, but conveyed in a fashion which made clear that this memory, whatever it happened to be, was "it."

That's what he did. You just didn't like the answer.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Then why does it even matter to have that subplot? Just drop the bomb on us: Battler is Tohya. Let us puzzle it out ourselves. We didn't need a lame explanation, if what you say is true.

And just to be clear, the difference here is that there are some things that need to be told and some things that might just be better without. "What was Battler doing all those years?" is not necessarily something we have to know, and in fact, anything that we think up in our heads is probably better than what we wound up actually being told. My problem is really that he told us things he should have shown us, made certain things too ambiguous that needed to be clear, and made things that could have been left ambiguous clear to no particular benefit for the story.

I would say the fact that we didn't figure it out was our own doing. We kept suspecting Tooya of making things up and ending up discarding possibly the entire EP3-6... or at least EP5 and 6, and then we left EP3 and 4 in doubt because we couldn't identify a proper author. But I think, while we were uncertain, we did conclude that it must have been someone with intimate family knowledge that survived 'till at least 1998. Only, I remember we just left it at the question, "How did Hachijou (Ikuko) know about Natsuhi and the baby dropping?"

Our leaving it at the question was probably the mistake. (I notice that when we're uncertain, we leave it at a question and stop thinking... we don't follow things to their logical conclusion. (And when I say we, I don't mean us fine people on the board , I mean, us in general, as humans.))

Basically, it couldn't have been Eva nor Ange. Eva because she seemed to be the head of a company and not a writer, nor Ange because she was very young. Mystery Writer and Battler were the only two shown to have literary inclinations, specifically mystery inclinations.

Anyways, it very well could be there were some things that failed to satisfy you. I don't doubt that. But it really does seem that I read a different story (or picked up different lessons from the story) than you. I think you should understand that's why I can't agree with you.

Originally Posted by Renall

I expect people to agree with me because they agree that he has shown a lack of competency. "There might be an answer, but I'll get back to you later" is a hack's trick. It's "I better hurry up and think of something!" It's very suspect. He shouldn't allow people to have that suspicion at all, and there's a very easy way to do that.And where exactly do you expect those to come from if not the ending? I guess that's the problem when things get episodic.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing that because of the way he embedded answers into EP1-4 from EP5-8 (or really, from his notes and outline). Everything seems too well constructed for him to change plots midway through. And in fact, there were a few things that people figured out that he didn't change, it seems. Like Kinzo being dead (from the Japanese side, mostly) or the Taiwan theory.

But, that's what I mean, it's not the end for me. I remember Higurashi Rei still dealt very seriously with the conclusion of the story. That is the story was 'finished' and the puzzle was undone... (rather than a mystery)... but there was still a little left with Rika and Hanyuu's characterization.

Umineko has ended its character development and ended its story. I really don't see anywhere for him to put in more, except for.... no, it's like all the characters are totally accounted for. That's all I really see EP8 doing. I think even I was under the mistaken impression that he would provide all the answers here. But now that I recall, he kept saying that he would reveal little by little in his interviews, to allow people to figure out things. So, I'm thinking that EP8, or the whole 'Chiru' series is this little-by-little reveal. Because he's done this, I think he's thinking that if he reveals all the answers, it means the total end to the fun in Umineko. So, I still expect him to announce when he'll do that...

Honestly, I'm kinda glad we don't have everything yet; there's some things I'm still thinking about. See below.

Originally Posted by musouka

Don't get me wrong. There were things I definitely disliked about EP8. It felt rushed and relied too much on Ange making some really moronic choices in the middle. Beato and Battler's ending was perfect, but felt out of place with the focus of the ep, ect, ect. But I'm not upset because Ryukishi decided to forgo the traditional "line up the suspects and exposition dump at them for fifteen pages."

Yah, I thought Ange was a bit too convenient, trying to deny anything other than her Quest for the Truth! Also, I thought that Beatrice and Battler's romance was supposed to be resolved in EP6, so it was strange for the ending of EP8 to be about them, rather than Ange, entirely.


But, maybe it was necessary, unfortunately. My theory is this, that Battler Prime very well knew the things that were going on on the island, to nearly the same level as Yasu, enough to allow Tooya to be able to write even more in detail.

I've been thinking that Yasu must have been aware of that there was someone out to really murder. And that she was trapped, because of this. This is because her stories take this into account! If she writes about it, it means she must know it. And this is separate from Yasu's idea that the siblings were capable of spontaneous murder.

Ok, so Tooya is able to fish out Battler's memories and write EP3-6. This is why I said he's suspicious; not that he's a culprit but that he must have known something was wrong. This is because despite losing his memories of the incident, he is still able to write to enough detail after only two EP regarding the staging of the murders. The writing is the proof of knowledge.

And I think that he was taking action in going back, rather than just blithely going along with Rudolf. Meta and Piece Battler may have been portrayed as idiots, but they were sometimes portrayed as smart. I think Battler Prime knew more than Yasu gave him credit for.

So it must be something vitally important that the both of them knew and were taking action on... although maybe not co-ordinated action.


By the way, I've never understood why Yasu said she was trapped. And Meta-Battler in EP5, after he figured it out, said that he realized that she was the one who was long suffering; not him. It was said that she couldn't leave the island, right? I mean, it couldn't really be her disfigurement (if there was one), or her inheriting the head-ship. It sounds like she was the boss afterwards. What reasons are there for people to have to remain on an island? Or with the family who's not even there most of the year?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Used Can

To be fair here, most people were trying to find out what the real events were back in the day of EP1-4. In fact, even after EP5, most people were still trying to find out possible common factors between the episodes to try to draw a possible scheme on how R-prime worked out. There were also those who thought kakeras were a possibility and that every game was a kakera.

So, finding Beatrice's motive wasn't really our clear objective from the beginning.

Hmm.. maybe that's why I feel like I've been reading a totally different story.

I was working on piercing the Meta World since EP2, when I saw that it was 'Shannon' who was ordered to write Kinzo's will. It reminded me of how authors like to stick author characters in their novels; so I suspected that Shannon was a writer of some kind. (You see this in manga too; sometimes you see characters being mangaka.)

EP3 made me suspicious since George and Shannon's relationship basically progressed. So I kept telling my friends that there was something extremely wrong with that. Basically it didn't fit the kakera pattern from Higurashi.

This was all around EP4 time, since I marathoned EP1-4 in about a week. I couldn't sleep properly for a day or two. My mind kept going, sorting out all the information...

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

By the way, I've never understood why Yasu said she was trapped. And Meta-Battler in EP5, after he figured it out, said that he realized that she was the one who was long suffering; not him. It was said that she couldn't leave the island, right? I mean, it couldn't really be her disfigurement (if there was one), or her inheriting the head-ship. It sounds like she was the boss afterwards. What reasons are there for people to have to remain on an island? Or with the family who's not even there most of the year?

As far as I remember, she wasn't trapped in the island, and she could have left any time she wanted. If it matters, I remember when George asked Shannon about it, she said she hadn't because she was a coward. So, if that works as part of Yasu's characterisation, then I think we could say she never left simply due to her own complexes.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Hmm.. maybe that's why I feel like I've been reading a totally different story.

I was working on piercing the Meta World since EP2, when I saw that it was 'Shannon' who was ordered to write Kinzo's will. It reminded me of how authors like to stick author characters in their novels; so I suspected that Shannon was a writer of some kind. (You see this in manga too; sometimes you see characters being mangaka.)

It's funny because I started as seriously pro-fantasy. But well, as the story moved I realised that approach wasn't really taking me anywhere. So, I re-read the story on a middle ground, as in some things must be mystery and others may be fantasy like the Meta. Then I read EP4 and the bottles made me doubt the Meta, but for some reason something in EP5 made me want to rethink the ideas on kakeras, but I dumped the idea almost entirely when I played EP6 for the first time. Later, the more I thought, I just decided the whole thing was fiction and dropped the idea of fantasy almost entirely, and left it as a just in case. Fun enough, whilst for some people EP7 and EP8 reinforced the possibility of the Meta being real, it did the whole opposite for me.

It's really funny because I ended up taking side I used to really dislike at first, like the Mystery side and the Author Theory. Which, is really ironic considering I was seriously thinking about dropping Umineko by the time I re-read EP6.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I see no spittle in my face.

I wish I could be that forgiving.

I'm saying, why not an evil twin at this point? Ryukishi spat in our faces. I can't trust him to not be lying to me (although it's more I suspect he didn't actually have answers to give anyone, not that he just didn't feel like revealing any). He asked me to trust him, I did, he pulled third grade plot concepts on me. He put a unicycle juggler at the end of Citizen Kane. So why the heck not Eeeeeevil Battler!!!?

After Ep 8, I’m afraid anything goes indeed. And that’s because

/quote/ Most of the game's content is made up and irrelevant. The author's self-insert Mary Sue won the game. Who reads it as a mystery is trolled by it not being one, who reads it as fantasy is trolled by metaworld not existing, who tries to accept both is trolled twice. The whole thing is strange as hell. Plot holes everywhere, like he didn't finish in time or something.
For example, all the stuff with Yasu, Jessica, George, all of the potential for exploring Kyrie and Rudolf's motivation, stuff that Umineko needed to end well, was completely discarded.

I had taken into account the motivations of every character, and basically this episode said FUCK YOU THEY WERE RED HERRINGS.

The very nature of Yasu NECESSITATES explanations of Jessica, George, and the servants motives, and yet instead of taking advantage of the thousands of ways in which he could have done something cool with the varying issues of the family, he goes with the most mundane motive and the most clichéd plot device.

This is a clueless mystery. Which would be fine, if Ryu didn't spend 7 episodes acting like everything would come together in some way.

Bern was basically right all along, you can't even blame her for ridiculing the whole thing. /unquote/

So, basically, R07 left two choices for you: to play the “draw your own conclusions” game, which roughly translates to “eat up that shite, pigs/goats, and ask for seconds”, or to try salvaging whatever is salvageable from that ambiguous mess and come up with your own “best fit” solution. I prefer the latter. I’ll have my proper mystery ending irregardless of whether R07 would be so kind as to provide one (or, more realistically, if he bothered to prepare one in the first place). This is a matter of principle and taste, really, and I’ll uphold mine.

As things stand now, I prefer “Battler is the R-prime” culprit because it's the best I can come up with from what I’m given. But it may be space aliens or Bigfoot tomorrow, if new information comes up that somehow supports that better. I don’t even have to try that hard, as long as it gives Umineko proper closure, hell, any closure. The people who see the desire for closure as something unnatural baffle me, nor do I see any obligation to prove anything to people like that. This is not my problem. That was/is R07 problem all along.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

i think the adult always solve the epitapt in all the games except ep6 thats why they made it through the second day.
in all ep,the bomb is always set ON so if they didn't solve the epitapt boom the bomb explode,just like in ep6.
but still they all die the second day.so it means that the culprit is one of the adult who got greedy and want the gold by themselves.

the culprit is kyrie or rudolf or maybe both of them?.i come to the conclusion after i read ep1,i remember rudolf saying he might get killed tonight.isn't that a bit suspicios that he knows what gonna happened that night?

battler was never killed by the culprit because rudolf doesn't want battler to be killed.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Used Can

As far as I remember, she wasn't trapped in the island, and she could have left any time she wanted. If it matters, I remember when George asked Shannon about it, she said she hadn't because she was a coward. So, if that works as part of Yasu's characterisation, then I think we could say she never left simply due to her own complexes.

Oh, maybe I got that mixed up with Battler saying that she was being tortured (metaphorically) for 6 years.

Originally Posted by Used Can

It's funny because I started as seriously pro-fantasy. But well, as the story moved I realised that approach wasn't really taking me anywhere. So, I re-read the story on a middle ground, as in some things must be mystery and others may be fantasy like the Meta. Then I read EP4 and the bottles made me doubt the Meta, but for some reason something in EP5 made me want to rethink the ideas on kakeras, but I dumped the idea almost entirely when I played EP6 for the first time. Later, the more I thought, I just decided the whole thing was fiction and dropped the idea of fantasy almost entirely, and left it as a just in case. Fun enough, whilst for some people EP7 and EP8 reinforced the possibility of the Meta being real, it did the whole opposite for me.

It's really funny because I ended up taking side I used to really dislike at first, like the Mystery side and the Author Theory. Which, is really ironic considering I was seriously thinking about dropping Umineko by the time I re-read EP6.

This is where I see how he tricked us. Or rather, how we tricked ourselves. When we're hit with clues, we dismiss them not out of reasoning, but out of uncertainty. So for example, the areca nut clue for the Taiwan theory. I remember there were some arguments (not on here) about how it HAD to be Korea and that stuff about eating areca nuts (though it wasn't named at the time) was not pertinent. 8) Maybe we declared things to be red herrings and then discarded them.

So, the strategy is, tell someone you're going to give them a super hard puzzle. Then tell them the answer. Then, watch as they say, "Nahhhhh..." 8) I saw this happening in the last Van Dine novel I read a few weeks back too. He basically told us the answer. Then led us around, springing up possible 'suspects' that didn't fit the original clue.

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

After Ep 8, I’m afraid anything goes indeed. And that’s because

I wonder if it really is the shock of people not being prepared for the Author Theory to be validated in EP8? Because even up until just before EP8, I keep hearing people saying the Author Theory can't be true because that would mean everything is fictional and therefore useless. (And therefore, it must be <something else>)

I mean, that wasn't all there was to the Author Theory. No one could believe in the Author Theory, not even me, until I pointed out how historians show that people, cultures, civilizations, buildings or other things once existed even though they were wiped out. By how they were referred to by other people. If you were to think of this as science, you would only rely on the primary resources for proof.


The only way "anything goes" was if Yasu, and now Battler/Tooya were writing with no structure in mind. But this isn't true since we can see things in EP1 and 2 that validate future episodes, for example.

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

the culprit is kyrie or rudolf or maybe both of them?.i come to the conclusion after i read ep1,i remember rudolf saying he might get killed tonight.isn't that a bit suspicios that he knows what gonna happened that night?

You know, though I said EP7's Tea Party mischaracterizes the people in the story, there was one thing about Kyrie that bugged me. It was shown that she was capable of figuring out all the moves and taking immediate action, well before the others realize the consequences of their actions. In essence, like Chessboard thinking. I remember that in EP1, she introduced this to Battler but she made it a point that it doesn't work in all cases. Basically when you can't read your opponent properly or they're not making the best moves. Also, behaving this way makes you extremely vulnerable; your actions can become predictable...

I didn't think Kyrie was a psychopath as EP7's Tea Party portrayed her, but from this I was disturbed to think that should she 'imagine' that the only outcomes would lead to murder, she could free herself to act first. And of course people would think she's a psychopath for doing so. 8)

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

This is where I see how he tricked us. Or rather, how we tricked ourselves. When we're hit with clues, we dismiss them not out of reasoning, but out of uncertainty. So for example, the areca nut clue for the Taiwan theory. I remember there were some arguments (not on here) about how it HAD to be Korea and that stuff about eating areca nuts (though it wasn't named at the time) was not pertinent. 8) Maybe we declared things to be red herrings and then discarded them.

Who knows?
Personally, I always kept on changing my thoughts and attitudes depending on the information presented. If there was something I found weird but didn't have any proper explanation for it, I typed it in a note-pad file I had. I remember I also had other files (I say "had," because all my info got lost, since my PC broke) for theories I didn't like (narrative-wise), just in case.

I honestly don't have any problems with obvious answers and being lead into thinking otherwise. I've read some detective novels like that as well, and I personally liked them. Although, I wouldn't call Umineko's answer as obvious, since even if ShKanon was relatively easy to spot, the whole deal about personalities/alter-egos/imaginary friends/whatever being able to die and acknowledged in the Red as such was rather contrived, in my opinion. So, even if we could make a case about there being hints, the idea itself is not particularly logical, in my opinion, for most people to even come up with that idea - and I don't remember anyone suggesting it either. Moreover, I just couldn't like the answers presented by R07, nor did I like the story after EP5. The lack of certainty at the end didn't really make it any better.

But well, that's all there is to it. I guess my expectation were too high. Perhaps, that's my fault for my lack of enjoyment at the end. Who knows? As for why I still have the need to speak about it if I didn't like it at the end? I suppose doing it brings me some catharsis. That, and I do enjoy making crack theories, and do some actual theorising.

[AuraTwilight]

Really I just find all this absolutely hilarious since we were told since forever ago that we weren't going to be told the answers on everything.

"Shit, he really meant it when he said we had to find our own answers? Well fuck that, I thought he was going to change his mind."

Chill the hell out, guys. At this point the complaining is starting to go into very petty and whiny territory. At no point were we ever promised a "Solution" and there was a significant amount of foreshadowing for the catbox remaining closed forever; add on that the "mystery is solvable with EPS 1-4" and how Rokkenjima Prime is like non-existent at that point in the narrative and like, well...

I don't know, maybe my existence is skewed to hell because all my favorite stories are stuff that rely on the userbase filling the blanks themselves, so Umineko's just sort of par for the course.

Or maybe I just subconsciously decided that the ride was so fucking awesome that Ryu's allowed a bungled ending, since he made such an epic story I'm not confidant on how he could conclude it much better.

[luckyssol]

Many times he said that it was a game between him and his readers. I will always wonder what kind of ending we would have received if he felt that his readers understood his story. (The goats indicate otherwise)

Beatrice's cat box will forever rest at the bottom of the sea. I'm satisfied with it but what would that image look like if he were just a troll?

Spoiler for Secret Ryukishi Troll Ending:

I agree with AuraTwilight. Chill out guys.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

That's what he did. You just didn't like the answer.

Have you considered the possibility that you're giving a pass on otherwise indefensible literary techniques because you did like it?

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I wonder if it really is the shock of people not being prepared for the Author Theory to be validated in EP8?

You do realize some of the most disappointed people are the core of the Author Theory camp, and a huge portion of the group that called this in the first place?

Ironic that you then launched into a discussion of rewriting history.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Chill the hell out, guys. At this point the complaining is starting to go into very petty and whiny territory. At no point were we ever promised a "Solution" and there was a significant amount of foreshadowing for the catbox remaining closed forever; add on that the "mystery is solvable with EPS 1-4" and how Rokkenjima Prime is like non-existent at that point in the narrative and like, well...

It existed by then. And I'm seeing significant cognitive dissonance if you can accept "there won't be answers" and "you can solve it with 1-4." If there's not an answer, how can anyone solve it? Disregarding that he lies in interviews for sales...

I don't know, maybe my existence is skewed to hell because all my favorite stories are stuff that rely on the userbase filling the blanks themselves, so Umineko's just sort of par for the course.

He mocked us for trying to do this, after telling us to do it. He's acting like a child.

Or maybe I just subconsciously decided that the ride was so fucking awesome that Ryu's allowed a bungled ending, since he made such an epic story I'm not confidant on how he could conclude it much better.

He's good at some things. He was completely unable to close the deal. I'm not letting him off the hook for that. I know you and I disagree on a single fundamental sticking point though, so in terms of appreciation for the narrative we're always going to be shaky there.

Still, I'm not actually mad. Mad is when I PM you something that makes you stop speaking to me. I'm just passionate, like a swarthy matador.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Have you considered the possibility that you're giving a pass on otherwise indefensible literary techniques because you did like it?

No literary technique is indefensible as long as its done well. And, yes, before you answer, not every technique used in Umineko is done well. But a lot of the ones you're decrying read emotionally true and are handled nicely, which is all I demand from my pulp entertainment when the day is done.