Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The problem is your very opinion is a contradiction. You are assessing this show differently than you have assessed others ones.

We all tend to be more forgiving of shows we happen to like over ones we happen to not like. Kaijo is no better or worse than you, or most people, here.

You say your enjoyment of the show is because of these so called plot-holes

There currently is a plot inconsistency between Episode 1 and Episode 8.

Episode 8 shows that Homura is quite capable of instant-killing "a" Kyubey. So there should be no try for her. Kyubey should never be simply injured by Homura (as he was in Episode 1). He should be either dead from her attack, or left entirely unscathed (unless Homura is intentionally trying to maim but not kill him, but then such an idea raises other issues).

Now, there may be a good in-canon reason for this inconsistency that will later be revealed. For now, though, it's no different than a poorly written Flash or Superman fight where the hero conveniently forgets he has extreme super-speed powers, and hence the villain has a chance when he really shouldn't.

or what have you, but I think it goes much deeper than that. You're trying to rationalize your dislike or displeasure with Madoka thus far in a manner that can somehow convince us of the same reasoning, or least understand. But it just doesn't hold up convincingly. Why?

I think Kaijo has made his case reasonably well. I think his case is "holding up" Ok.

And as for rationalizing dislike or displeasure, let's look at your critique of Nanoha...

Well lets take a look at Nanoha, the first season (If I include A's and StrikerS this becomes way too easy), and I'll show you how nitpicking can make a show seem extremely bad.
[LIST][*]Nanoha is a third grader. Sure she may have been able to sneak out once or twice, but that is it. Her family would keep watch over her, and she shouldn't of been able to keep her work up as a mahou shoujo.

Kaijo could equally argue "Where is Sayaka's parents during all of this? Why do they let her just sneak out late at night, without any explanation? How can they be oblivious to how depressed their daughter is getting?"

Kaijo, and myself, are letting this slide, just as we let similar issues slide with Nanoha. It's one of those frequent issues that tend to inevitably arise in child superhero stories (be they magical girl or otherwise).

This is even more evident as the series progresses where she disappears not just for nights or a day or two, but even whole months really with real weak excuses.

Wait... when does Nanoha disappear for whole months?

Also, at least in Nanoha's case, Lindy met with Nanoha's parents to discuss the matter. I don't recall Kyubey having a chat with Sayaka's parents.

Irregardless of her family make up (Outside material which shouldn't even factor into it), this doesn't make logical sense.

Nor does Sayaka's parents literally being nowhere to be seen while their daughter sneaks off to all sorts of locales around the city to do things that are a complete mystery to them.

[*]The monster chasing Yuuno at the beginning suddenly stopped for whatever reason. The monster could've kept chasing him and finish the job, but only preceded to do so after Nanoha made contact with her. Pretty convenient huh?

Maybe the monster simply tired out temporarily, and had to catch his breath. I don't see any big deal here at all.

[*]Precia was powerful enough to outright destroy her foes, but never used it before her demise really.

Precia wasn't interested in destroying her foes. All she was interested in was getting to Alhazred (Sp?). Precia had no desire to exert her magical power more than what was absolutely necessary (why do you think she had Fate do all the dirty work for her?). I see nothing strange, or critique worthy, about any of this.

[*]Nanoha learned abilities without proper training. You can be talented yes, but her powers didn't make much sense when they just randomly appeared at convenient times.

What "proper training" did we see Sayaka get?

And besides, what training do you really need to simply think of a magical event, and thus have it happen?

This is honestly a very silly critique that you're making here.

[*]Magic isn't lethal. Nanoha can shoot beams bigger than gundams, but people like Fate are relatively unharmed throughout.

If a large wave of water was to crash down upon you, you'd feel it, but it wouldn't kill you. My sense is that magical blasts in Nanoha are simply like that, only stronger.

Yet at the same time, we hear people like Fate tell Nanoha that she'll have to kill her if she gets in her way. Can't take this seriously enough.

Who says that Fate has to stick strictly to magic? Nothing stopping her from KOing Nanoha (as she successfully did once or twice) and then burying her in Tokyo Bay through Yakuza-type methods, is there?

[*]Fate only realized something wrong with her memories conveniently before the finale even though in her memory she could remember Precia calling her Alicia. What? Too convenient.

Well, we're seeing similar things with Madoka's memories, possibly. In both cases, I don't see anything worth complaining over here.

[*]At the end Nanoha and Fate are shown to be practically best friends, even though they talked very little. Fate can be thankful, sure, but the meeting was too emotional for one between two people who at that point really knew very little about each other.

I strongly disagree. Near the end of the original Nanoha anime, Nanoha made a lot of compelling emotional pleas to Fate that clearly resonated with her. Nanoha also went to great lengths to defend Fate, particularly when it came to Precia badmouthing her and TSAB making legal charges against her. It's not "too emotional" at all for Fate to respond very strongly and emotionally to that. Most people would be extremely grateful, and likely be moved by such actions, if in Fate's shoes.

[*]Nanoha acts much too mature for her age. She doesn't have fear, and is always so kind to anyone without question.

It's actually not that uncommon for young kids to be very brave. Ignorance can create courage. And Nanoha isn't "too mature for her age" at all when you consider her family and personal background.

Sure people can be heroic, but it's a little extreme to show a 3rd grader be like superman (Who is rightly criticized himself as a superhero).

"Rightly criticized", eh? That's just your opinion, Reckoner. Loads of people love Superman just the way he is, including myself. You're the one who's now confusing issues of personal subjective tastes with more objective critiques.

Some of us like heroes like Superman, and they're no less realistic than our super special sweet Madoka is.

[*]Every time a jewel seed appears in the series, Nanoha and Fate are always conveniently arriving at the exact same time.

That's not accurate. There were jewel seeds that Nanoha captured before she even met Fate. Likewise, there were jewels seeds that Fate captured before she even met Nanoha.

This is an entirely invalid criticism that you're making here.

Many of my complaints are actually somewhat similar in nature, and even in so called "gravity" to yours about Madoka, but you called Nanoha a series that is pretty strong on the front of plot holes and such.

Truth be told, I don't think that your complaints against Nanoha are all on the same level as the most serious complaints against Madoka.

None of what you raised sticks out as badly to me as Homura merely injuring Kyubey in Episode 1 when she instant-kills him in Episode 8. Now, this anime can still close that plot hole, but it might not. Kaijo has every right to raise it.

What can I surmise from this apparent contradiction? You just don't like the story of Madoka, and I would like you to stop kidding yourself here.

I think that Kaijo has legitimate plot critiques here. I don't think it's purely a matter of disliking the broader story of Madoka.

I'd rather just have you say that you don't like the kind of mahou shoujo show this is, because that's basically all I can see in your posts.

Why should Kaijo take that approach to Madoka, when you never took that approach to Nanoha yourself? Why do you expect Kaijo to be easier on this anime than you yourself have been on Nanoha?

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah, yes. Pretty much every work of fiction would have some solution that would end the whole thing in 5 minutes. Especially stuff like "why don't ya just shoot him?". It's just something one has to accept as part as the premise.

I do think "because this story would be over in 5 minutes" is a valid enough reason.

So for stuff like wishes, we can pretty much exclude stuff like wanting multiple wishes, etc. Or wishing the whole system would self destruct. In any case, whatever wish system it is cannot be considered omnipotent unless it's outright stated it is. Besides, if you think about it, if you can actually enter such a wish in, it would be ridiculously exploitable.

For example, if Spiderman's plot was like:

Guy gets bitten by radioactive spider
He craps himself and dies

That would just not be interesting at all. And trying to come up with a explanation can make it even sillier at times-- sometimes it's better not to delve too much into the details lest it turn into Fridge Logic

I think the problem comes back to the uses of "words". Just like QB own interpretation of "magical girls". What he called "wishes" are not actual wishes, but rather just some favours that girl can ask him to do it for them, in exchange for their souls...

Image how many girls will join the contract voluntarily if he put it like this:
" I gonna do you some favour, but in exchange, i will take up your soul sooner or later, no exception"
That's exactly what meant to happen!!

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I think the problem comes back to the uses of "words". Just like QB own interpretation of "magical girls". What he called "wishes" are not actual wishes, but rather just some favours that girl can ask him to do it for him, in exchange for their souls...

Image how many girls will join the contract voluntarily if he put it like this:
" I gonna do you some favour, but in exchange, i will take up your soul sooner or later, no exception"

LOL, yea, that wouldn't be very successful at all. And yea, we can no longer take what QB says at face value.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And as for rationalizing dislike or displeasure, let's look at your critique of Nanoha...



Kaijo could equally argue "Where is Sayaka's parents during all of this? Why do they let her just sneak out late at night, without any explanation? How can they be oblivious to how depressed their daughter is getting?"

Kaijo, and myself, are letting this slide, just as we let similar issues slide with Nanoha. It's one of those frequent issues that tend to inevitably arise in child superhero stories (be they magical girl or otherwise).





Wait... when does Nanoha disappear for whole months?

Also, at least in Nanoha's case, Lindy met with Nanoha's parents to discuss the matter. I don't recall Kyubey having a chat with Sayaka's parents.

Btw, it's sorta advisable to use spoiler tags for these things

Spoiler for Nanoha:

The problem was that Lindy pretty much came and asked Nanoha's parents, and they're just like "k" and think that there's nothing odd that their child will be gone for quite a while and skipping school and such. Remember, Lindy's just a random stranger to them!

OTOH, Sayaka becoming a MG has no need for her to be absent, as this kind of thing is largely invisible to normals. She's still going home and going to school. It makes sense she could hide this stuff from her parents.

What "proper training" did we see Sayaka get?

And besides, what training do you really need to simply think of a magical event, and thus have it happen?

She didn't, and it shows. She is relatively very weak and unskilled compared to the other MGs due to her lack of experience and potential

If a large wave of water was to crash down upon you, you'd feel it, but it wouldn't kill you. My sense is that magical blasts in Nanoha are simply like that, only stronger.

Umm, actually a big enough wave would crush and drown you. The thing is that there's no way you can be tougher than a building. If it breaks a building into pieces; you are going too.

Personally I've just always saw it as defense being overpowered in Nanoha. It seems to take far more force to take something down then to defend against it. It's possible the characters are strong enough to absorb much more magical damage than it seems... just because they are defeated may mean they are not out of hit points.

There's always a reasoning that it's a "stun" setting, though I'd rather just not get into it.

I strongly disagree. Near the end of the original Nanoha anime, Nanoha made a lot of compelling emotional pleas to Fate that clearly resonated with her. Nanoha also went to great lengths to defend Fate, particularly when it came to Precia badmouthing her and TSAB making legal charges against her. It's not "too emotional" at all for Fate to respond very strongly and emotionally to that. Most people would be extremely grateful, and likely be moved by such actions, if in Fate's shoes.

Spoiler:

I disagree too, since Fate's just not been around many people and Nanoha put in a lot of effort

It's actually not that uncommon for young kids to be very brave. Ignorance can create courage. And Nanoha isn't "too mature for her age" at all when you consider her family and personal background.

Yea, I guess. But the thing was that the [anime] never really went into her background too much

None of what you raised sticks out as badly to me as Homura merely injuring Kyubey in Episode 1 when she instant-kills him in Episode 8. Now, this anime can still close that plot hole, but it might not. Kaijo has every right to raise it.

Ambush attacks are ridiculously effective in this series. Mami was destroying that witch that killed her, but the moment she was caught off guard... Also, look at how easily Homura was disabled by Mami.

Also, there's kind of a similar case in Nanoha:

Spoiler for StrikerS:

Nanoha almost died when she was attacked by surprise by that piercing bot thing. True, she had exhausted herself previously, but it's fairly obvious she would have no issue dealing with it if she was ready to activate the standard barriers.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The problem is your very opinion is a contradiction. You are assessing this show differently than you have assessed others ones.

I can't help but note that this show is different from others ones. It is only natural to judge different shows by different standards. For example, in the detective genre we paying attention to the details and in the romance to feelings.

If this show is close to a detective, than to not pay attention to details mean to seriously undermine it's value. But if it is about feelings/awesome actions/horrors than you'd better not to look too close at the plot. You see? It is a bet.

My bet was on detective, and for now I am trying to cut my losses in order to enjoy superb execution of story without thinking too much about minor discrepancies.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Btw, it's sorta advisable to use spoiler tags for these things

Spoiler for Nanoha:

The problem was that Lindy pretty much came and asked Nanoha's parents, and they're just like "k" and think that there's nothing odd that their child will be gone for quite a while and skipping school and such. Remember, Lindy's just a random stranger to them!

OTOH, Sayaka becoming a MG has no need for her to be absent, as this kind of thing is largely invisible to normals. She's still going home and going to school. It makes sense she could hide this stuff from her parents.

Spoiler for Nanoha and Madoka:

I forget exactly what Lindy said to Nanoha's mom, but I remember her being very persuasive and professional about it. Not saying it's not a bit of a stretch, but I think people might be making too big a deal out of it.

As for Sayaka, you forget that she did miss a day or two of school, and as a direct result of issues arising from her becoming a magical girl.

I don't think it makes any more sense for Sayaka to be able to hide this from her parents than it does for Nanoha to be able to get away with sneaking out late at night.

Umm, actually a big enough wave would crush and drown you.

You know what I meant.

I like your "strong defense" theory though.

Ambush attacks are ridiculously effective in this series.

You don't think that Kyubey was ambushed in Episode 1?

I'm certainly not saying it ruins the anime, or anything even remotely that severe.

But let's be fair here. It does seem kind of fishy. You can instant-kill this guy via time-stop in one episode, but he has enough time to get off a cry of help in another episode when you're supposedly trying to kill him?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Also, there's kind of a similar case in Nanoha:

Spoiler for StrikerS:

Nanoha almost died when she was attacked by surprise by that piercing bot thing. True, she had exhausted herself previously, but it's fairly obvious she would have no issue dealing with it if she was ready to activate the standard barriers.

Off topic:

The problem of this incident is that it have been shoved in a flashback. As a result, it felt like it have been tackled in at the last second in the script as a sidenote to excuse the Limiters and as for why the rookies and the aces are not as beamspammy as before.


The delivery came off as shoddy and it is, in my opinion, one instance of poor storytelling. Also, in my opinion again, one of the biggest problems of the Nanoha franchise is its over-reliance on cross-media to pick up the finest details of the past, side characters. I.E, you would NOT have any idea of who those side characters (like Griffith) are unless you have read one of those manga. It IS bad, it is like Jackson decided to make the movies of LoTR shorter and expecting viewers to have read the goddamn books to pick up the whereabouts of Pippin and his buddy during The Two Towers, or Frodo, Sam and Gollum.

Nanoha definitely needed over 50 episodes to give the finest details and tell about those characters, over 50 episodes to match up the ambition of the writers. Reliance on sound stages and side stories manga is not going to do any good for a casual westerner who have no way to pick them up!

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't think that Kyubey was ambushed in Episode 1?

I'm certainly not saying it ruins the anime, or anything even remotely that severe.

But let's be fair here. It does seem kind of fishy. You can instant-kill this guy via time-stop in one episode, but he has enough time to get off a cry of help in another episode when you're supposedly trying to kill him?

Eh, there are lots of ways you can play a scene that we didn't see in whole. I mean here, I could interpret the chase in episode 1 like this:

It's shown that Homura can't pause time for more than a few seconds at a time, nor does she want to overuse her power; Kyuubey could have had a head start, plus he was already on his guard and they were in an area with a lot more corners and hiding places. We're not even sure how the little bugger gets around; he's shown disappearing into the shadows in this episode, so he could be a lot harder to track than you're giving Homura credit for. Not to mention they were very close to a large amount of civilians. Perhaps she wagered she could catch up before he encountered Madoka, while still minimizing her use of magical energy. On the other hand in this episode he was in the middle of eagerly soliciting a contract, out in the open, and completely off his guard.

Point is, the exact details of the chase are never explained so you can't really definitely conclude that she should have been able to finish him off there with no problem.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Spoiler for Nanoha and Madoka:

I forget exactly what Lindy said to Nanoha's mom, but I remember her being very persuasive and professional about it. Not saying it's not a bit of a stretch, but I think people might be making too big a deal out of it.

As for Sayaka, you forget that she did miss a day or two of school, and as a direct result of issues arising from her becoming a magical girl.

I don't think it makes any more sense for Sayaka to be able to hide this from her parents than it does for Nanoha to be able to get away with sneaking out late at night.

Spoiler:

It's just easier to cover one up than the other. Going to a timeship for extended periods of time is harder to cover up than still being able to come back to dinner. A few days; you can pass off as being sick. More than that, uh oh...

Actually where the hell are Sayaka's parents? Damn missing parents syndrome in animu

You know what I meant.

I like your "strong defense" theory though.

When it comes into the realm of magical or future tech special attacks, it's best to accept them at face value. It's because we need bright lights. Like I said a bit earlier, such elements are just best left as is without too much explanation. Otherwise, we end up with technobabble and nobody wants that.

Imagine Clannad's ending being explained as

Spoiler for Clannad AS, technobabble version:

The timeline was altered due to a localized anomaly located within the town's center. By having Fuko modulate her anamoulous frequency with the other dimension, it created a feedback loop which caused the alternate universe to degrade and caused a temporal distortion that conveniently swalloed up Tomoya and Ushio, causing them to be temporarily displaced and causing the surplus biolectric energy to fill into the actual world, which allowed Nagisa to survive due to multiple quantum realities.

They were obviously saved by the Voyager crew. Or Yuki Nagato. Or Mai. Honestly, that still makes more sense than what was shown in the anime.

And yes, I know it was light orbs. It doesn't help. We were all saved by the build up of happiness and miracles which somehow became magical; let's just leave it at that

You don't think that Kyubey was ambushed in Episode 1?

I'm certainly not saying it ruins the anime, or anything even remotely that severe.

But let's be fair here. It does seem kind of fishy. You can instant-kill this guy via time-stop in one episode, but he has enough time to get off a cry of help in another episode when you're supposedly trying to kill him?

He was still suffering pretty badly, and was actively trying to escape/dodge. The gun was just completely unexpected.

On the other hand, he's not dead anyways, so I guess it's all a troll by him.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We all tend to be more forgiving of shows we happen to like over ones we happen to not like. Kaijo is no better or worse than you, or most people, here.

Which doesn't go against my post.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There currently is a plot inconsistency between Episode 1 and Episode 8.

Episode 8 shows that Homura is quite capable of instant-killing "a" Kyubey. So there should be no try for her. Kyubey should never be simply injured by Homura (as he was in Episode 1). He should be either dead from her attack, or left entirely unscathed (unless Homura is intentionally trying to maim but not kill him, but then such an idea raises other issues).

Now, there may be a good in-canon reason for this inconsistency that will later be revealed. For now, though, it's no different than a poorly written Flash or Superman fight where the hero conveniently forgets he has extreme super-speed powers, and hence the villain has a chance when he really shouldn't.

Blown out of proportion. I made a comparison to Yuuno is episode 1 almost getting killed by a monster to show Kaijo contradicting himself. I suggest you take a look at Archon_Wing's post regarding fridge logic.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kaijo could equally argue "Where is Sayaka's parents during all of this? Why do they let her just sneak out late at night, without any explanation? How can they be oblivious to how depressed their daughter is getting?"

Kaijo, and myself, are letting this slide, just as we let similar issues slide with Nanoha. It's one of those frequent issues that tend to inevitably arise in child superhero stories (be they magical girl or otherwise).

First of all, Sayaka is no 3rd grader. We are never shown her family either, so presumably she lives alone (can't confirm this). It's much easier for a middle school girl to be sneaking outside than it is for a third grade girl. Suspension of belief isn't as high.

This is especially the case when her brother and sister caught her once during the series, but left her alone afterwards without much suspicions.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Wait... when does Nanoha disappear for whole months?

Also, at least in Nanoha's case, Lindy met with Nanoha's parents to discuss the matter. I don't recall Kyubey having a chat with Sayaka's parents.

Again, don't know if sayaka lives with her parents as their existence isn't acknowledged in the series. Much easier for a middle school girl to be sneaking around as well and she continues life as normal (school among other things).

Lindy talking with her parents was especially a big wtf. They don't know her, but put their trust in her for some reason. This is where Nanoha basically disappeared for a month from her household.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe the monster simply tired out temporarily, and had to catch his breath. I don't see any big deal here at all.

Maybe Homura tired out temporarily and had to catch her breath.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Precia wasn't interested in destroying her foes. All she was interested in was getting to Alhazred (Sp?). Precia had no desire to exert her magical power more than what was absolutely necessary (why do you think she had Fate do all the dirty work for her?). I see nothing strange, or critique worthy, about any of this.

She owned Fate and her familiar. She was very powerful from an outward appearance. Why was she defeated towards the end (albeit dying slowly) if she could have just defeated them all herself and take the jewel seeds?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What "proper training" did we see Sayaka get?

And besides, what training do you really need to simply think of a magical event, and thus have it happen?

This is honestly a very silly critique that you're making here.

We could see this inexperience harm Sayaka. She got owned by Kyoko, and sucked at killing the witches.

Sayaka also isn't gaining random abilities in battles.

But just as you view my critique here as silly, I could say I view Kaijo's critique as silly.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If a large wave of water was to crash down upon you, you'd feel it, but it wouldn't kill you. My sense is that magical blasts in Nanoha are simply like that, only stronger.

Water pressure can kill. That's why fire hoses that firemen use are really dangerous.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Who says that Fate has to stick strictly to magic? Nothing stopping her from KOing Nanoha (as she successfully did once or twice) and then burying her in Tokyo Bay through Yakuza-type methods, is there?

The whole point is the contrivance of the battles to be serious, or potentially life threatening, when they're anything but that throughout most of the series.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, we're seeing similar things with Madoka's memories, possibly. In both cases, I don't see anything worth complaining over here.

Madoka's memories seem to be tampered with and this plot point has yet to be explained anyways so this point is moot. Fate's memory was given to her, but it wasn't like she was unable to remember it for some reason, she had those memories all along!

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree. Near the end of the original Nanoha anime, Nanoha made a lot of compelling emotional pleas to Fate that clearly resonated with her. Nanoha also went to great lengths to defend Fate, particularly when it came to Precia badmouthing her and TSAB making legal charges against her. It's not "too emotional" at all for Fate to respond very strongly and emotionally to that. Most people would be extremely grateful, and likely be moved by such actions, if in Fate's shoes.

The one who was moved more seemed to be Nanoha rather than Fate in this scene.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Rightly criticized", eh? That's just your opinion, Reckoner. Loads of people love Superman just the way he is, including myself. You're the one who's now confusing issues of personal subjective tastes with more objective critiques.

Some of us like heroes like Superman, and they're no less realistic than our super special sweet Madoka is.

I feel that way personally, but I apologize for making it seem like the majority opinion or anything like that .

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's not accurate. There were jewel seeds that Nanoha captured before she even met Fate. Likewise, there were jewels seeds that Fate captured before she even met Nanoha.

This is an entirely invalid criticism that you're making here.

Once Fate appeared, this is pretty much accurate. It happened many times as well. Too many coincidences.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Truth be told, I don't think that your complaints against Nanoha are all on the same level as the most serious complaints against Madoka.

None of what you raised sticks out as badly to me as Homura merely injuring Kyubey in Episode 1 when she instant-kills him in Episode 8. Now, this anime can still close that plot hole, but it might not. Kaijo has every right to raise it.

The monster could have killed Yuuno, the end, but didn't. Same level. And this isn't even that grave of an issue. It's a nitpick. Fridge logic.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that Kaijo has legitimate plot critiques here. I don't think it's purely a matter of disliking the broader story of Madoka.

I don't think his assertions were not enough in of them by themselves for me, or for him to even consider saying the show was not pleasurable outright. He's trying to convince me that this deters one form enjoyment of it while similar problems didn't for another series he declared was strong on this front. This is what has led me to believe he just dislikes the kind of mahou shoujo Madoka is.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why should Kaijo take that approach to Madoka, when you never took that approach to Nanoha yourself? Why do you expect Kaijo to be easier on this anime than you yourself have been on Nanoha?

I actually like Nanoha? Not nearly as much as the fans of the franchise though (I consider it highly overated and shows a ton of wasted potential IMO), but I was relatively entertained by it.

Also I never asked Kaijo to be easier on this anime. I just wanted him to admit that he isn't fond of these types of mahou shoujos, which I'm extrapolating based on how he has posted.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Eh, there are lots of ways you can play a scene that we didn't see in whole. I mean here, I could interpret the chase in episode 1 like this:

It's shown that Homura can't pause time for more than a few seconds at a time, nor does she want to overuse her power; Kyuubey could have had a head start, plus he was already on his guard and they were in an area with a lot more corners and hiding places. We're not even sure how the little bugger gets around; he's shown disappearing into the shadows in this episode, so he could be a lot harder to track than you're giving Homura credit for. Not to mention they were very close to a large amount of civilians. Perhaps she wagered she could catch up before he encountered Madoka, while still minimizing her use of magical energy. On the other hand in this episode he was in the middle of eagerly soliciting a contract, out in the open, and completely off his guard.

Point is, the exact details of the chase are never explained so you can't really definitely conclude that she should have been able to finish him off there with no problem.

The problem isn't that she failed to kill him.

The problem is that she injured him and failed to kill him.

That suggests that she at least managed to get a clear shot off on him.

Now, if you have time freeze, you can freeze your target at any time. So once you spot your target, you can temporarily freeze him in place.

And Episode 8 shows that Homura has impressive aim, so...


I guess if you were to be really generous, you could conceive of a way for this to all fit, but it does seem odd to me...

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Off topic:

The problem of this incident is that it have been shoved in a flashback. As a result, it felt like it have been tackled in at the last second in the script as a sidenote to excuse the Limiters and as for why the rookies and the aces are not as beamspammy as before.


The delivery came off as shoddy and it is, in my opinion, one instance of poor storytelling. Also, in my opinion again, one of the biggest problems of the Nanoha franchise is its over-reliance on cross-media to pick up the finest details of the past, side characters. I.E, you would NOT have any idea of who those side characters (like Griffith) are unless you have read one of those manga. It IS bad, it is like Jackson decided to make the movies of LoTR shorter and expecting viewers to have read the goddamn books to pick up the whereabouts of Pippin and his buddy during The Two Towers, or Frodo, Sam and Gollum.

Nanoha definitely needed over 50 episodes to give the finest details and tell about those characters, over 50 episodes to match up the ambition of the writers. Reliance on sound stages and side stories manga is not going to do any good for a casual westerner who have no way to pick them up!

Also Off Topic :
Nanoha is worthy of being a book series , or a series of light novels . In fact , if Nanoha was initially presented in a Light Novel style series , the finer world building details would have almost certainly come out , unless the author completely botches the jobs. In other words , I personally think that the Light Novel medium might have been the best way to show a Universe of Nanoha verse complexity.

Back on Topic :
Nanoha's relative lack of training led her to over extend herself , and almost ended up killing her when she was 12 or so , as a result .

In Madoka Verse , such over extension , I suspect wouldn't land you in intensive rehab . You'd either be dead , or fully succumb into being a witch. Besides , the notion of training is a little absurd . Puella Magis learn on the job. Those who fail to learn either die , or turn into witches early - like Sayaka.

Those who do learn would likely be like Kyoko . And Homura's very much implied to be an extremely experienced Mahou Shojou.

Speaking of which , doesn't the place where Homura meets Kyoko give off a Witch Barrier Esque vibe? Could Homura very well be a fully mature Mahou Shojou : Aka Witch who somehow succeeded in curbing her instincts , and regain her sentience? Or perhaps highly experienced Magical Girls who haven't become full blown witches are able to reproduce a variant of a Witch Barrier consciously? Come to think of it , didn't Kyoko did something similar in Episode 5?

One final point: Kyubey was running when Homura was shooting at him in Episode 1 . If any of those shots connected , we might have seen swiss cheese Kyubey early on.

[zato_1one]

Kyuube said that this is the second time Humura kill him. I think that the first time was in episode 1. He has multiple body and that's why he could escape her. IMO

In this episode, Kyuube said that it's beyond his power to turn Sayaka back. But Madoka can do it. Well, he actually said that Madoka can do anything even becoming a god. I think that this implies that soul gem is actually the source power of the wish. Kyuube doesn't have power to grant any wish. The power is from the contractor herself. Madoka has enormous power for some reasons and that's why she can wish for anything. This actually answers the question about reviving. Not every people can wish to revive dead people. But Madoka (and may be only her) can if she want because she has the power to create miracle.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Blown out of proportion.

No, I don't think that it is honestly. Time-Freeze, even for a few seconds, is a major advantage for a would-be assassin to have. I don't think that can be stressed enough.

I made a comparison to Yuuno is episode 1 almost getting killed by a monster to show Kaijo contradicting himself.

Did this monster have time-freeze? If not, I see no contradiction here.

First of all, Sayaka is no 3rd grader.

Somewhat moot point. Parents tend to be careful even with 14 year old children.

We are never shown her family either, so presumably she lives alone (can't confirm this).

Wrong. Madoka uses an intercom system of sorts in this very episode when she goes to Sayaka's house. Madoka is then informed by somebody (presumably a legal guardian of Sayaka's, if not a parent) that Sayaka did not come home last night, and is not home right now.

Sayaka clearly does not live alone.

It's much easier for a middle school girl to be sneaking outside than it is for a third grade girl. Suspension of belief isn't as high.

I disagree. I don't see a significant difference here. It all depends on the strictness of the parent, in both cases. Growing up, I knew young kids with very lenient parents where there was no curfew at all, and I knew young teens with very strict curfew.

This is especially the case when her brother and sister caught her once during the series, but left her alone afterwards without much suspicions.

Because they trust Nanoha.

Again, don't know if sayaka lives with her parents as their existence isn't acknowledged in the series.

At the very least, Sayaka has some sort of legal guardian. That being whoever Madoka spoke too when she arrived at Sayaka's house this episode.

Much easier for a middle school girl to be sneaking around as well and she continues life as normal (school among other things).

No, she doesn't. I pointed this out to Archon_Wing. Sayaka has missed days of school (and even failed to come home at night, apparently). One wonders why the legal guardian that Madoka spoke to hasn't called the cops, or started a search party for Sayaka.

Maybe Homura tired out temporarily and had to catch her breath.

Homura seems to have great stamina. Have we even seen her break a sweat or breath heavily in this anime?

She owned Fate and her familiar. She was very powerful from an outward appearance. Why was she defeated towards the end (albeit dying slowly) if she could have just defeated them all herself and take the jewel seeds?

Precia wasn't defeated. Not from her own perspective. As far as Precia is concerned, she successfully opened a gateway to Alhazred. That's all she cares about.

We could see this inexperience harm Sayaka. She got owned by Kyoko, and sucked at killing the witches.

Well, Nanoha did horribly bad in combat with Fate early on. It took awhile for Nanoha to learn how to defeat Fate.

Sayaka also isn't gaining random abilities in battles.

But Homura's weaponry appears pretty random.

The whole point is the contrivance of the battles to be serious, or potentially life threatening, when they're anything but that throughout most of the series.

Your point here is simply not valid. You can KO a person with magic from Nanoha's universe, and then kill through more conventional means.

Madoka's memories seem to be tampered with and this plot point has yet to be explained anyways so this point is moot. Fate's memory was given to her, but it wasn't like she was unable to remember it for some reason, she had those memories all along!

Who's to say that Fate's memory wasn't similarly tampered with by Precia? Just not entirely effectively?

The one who was moved more seemed to be Nanoha rather than Fate in this scene.

That has nothing to do with my counter-point, which even Archon agrees with.

I feel that way personally, but I apologize for making it seem like the majority opinion or anything like that .

Apology accepted.

Once Fate appeared, this is pretty much accurate.

So? This just means that some times they met at jewel seed locations, and some times they didn't.

No big deal at all. No "too many coincidences" at all.

The monster could have killed Yuuno, the end, but didn't. Same level.

No, it's not. Did the monster have time-freeze?

I don't think his assertions were not enough in of them by themselves for me, or for him to even consider saying the show was not pleasurable outright. He's trying to convince me that this deters one form enjoyment of it while similar problems didn't for another series he declared was strong on this front. This is what has led me to believe he just dislikes the kind of mahou shoujo Madoka is.

Part of the reason why I'm defending Kaijo here is because plot holes are something that can really hurt the enjoyability of an anime for me as well, so I do relate to him here.

Now, Madoka Magica thankfully hasn't done that for me, but I can see how it might do that for somebody else.

And what might be a plot hole to you isn't necessarily one to Kaijo, or vice versa.

I actually like Nanoha?

Reckoner, you called it garbage.

Do you really want me to link to your Nanoha review over on the Nanoha board?

[Reckoner]

I called it garbage compared to the hype. No need to link it. That post was more me having fun with it anyhow than a completely serious critque. Admittedly I was trying to stir up debate.

Anyhow I don't want to keep debating about Nanoha in this thread as it is off topic. Feel free to bring it to PM.

My basic point was that many of the criticisms he made about Madoka are very similar to the ones I made about Nanoha either in similarity or gravity. In my personal opinion you are not refuting my points any better than people have attempted to refute Kaijo's points.

Most importantly, I was trying to show how he either has a double standard, or is contradicting his stance a little bit. I believe his displeasure goes beyond simply plot holes that really bear little consequence on the plot (Fridge logic again). OK Homura kills Kyube. Another Kyube body finds Madoka eventually. Great, can we get on with the plot now?

I am asking him to just admit that his dislike of it is more broad because that's what I have interpeted from him. If I'm wrong, he'll reply, and give me some of his own reasoning.

The problem is, if you can't accept that the points I made about Nanoha are similar in nature/gravity/etc., then all discussion is moot from then on.

[zato_1one]

Well, come to think about it. I'd say that it's actually more appropriate to just injure Kyuube and makes him unable to move. Because if he dies then he can immediately come back with full health. So, injuring him should slow him more than killing him. IMO But either ways, it's only inevitable for him to meet Madoka. What Homura did is just slowing the process a bit.

[venk]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Kyuube said that this is the second time Humura kill him. I think that the first time was in episode 1. He has multiple body and that's why he could escape her. IMO

In this episode, Kyuube said that it's beyond his power to turn Sayaka back. But Madoka can do it. Well, he actually said that Madoka can do anything even becoming a god. I think that this implies that soul gem is actually the source power of the wish. Kyuube doesn't have power to grant any wish. The power is from the contractor herself. Madoka has enormous power for some reasons and that's why she can wish for anything. This actually answers the question about reviving. Not every people can wish to revive dead people. But Madoka (and may be only her) can if she want because she has the power to create miracle.

Or actually homura-chan successfully kill kyubey for the 1st time, and another kyubey's doppelganger appeared,

then he lead homura to keep attacking him to create some tricky scenery to get madoka's sympathy ?

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by venk

Or actually homura-chan successfully kill kyubey for the 1st time, and another kyubey's doppelganger appeared,

then he lead homura to keep attacking him to create some tricky scenery to get madoka's sympathy ?

seems likely..

[Mentar]

I've received an infraction for "inconsiderate behavior" and have been asked to back off. It annoys me in a way, but I'll honor the request, readjust my ignore list and carry on. So instead of quoting, I'll give some summarizing answers.

1) There are people who very readily assign the attributes "plot hole" and "bad writing" to any open question they don't understand or development they dislike in a show. I would strongly advise against using the term as long as the show is still ongoing and there are lots of possible explanations left. All it takes is some new piece of information to change things.

For example, I remember people calling it a plot hole that (young) Homura claimed to have seen countless MGs die. Since we learned later that she has some abilities to jump through time, we now have a reasonable explanation for it. And the whole "why doesn't Homura spill the beans already" issue is clearly a major mystery which I'm perfectly sure will be addressed in the future. Calling it a "plot hole" now is way premature.

2) Careful with the echo chamber. I see discussions going on calling it a plot hole that Homura didn't "stop the time" when she was chasing QB in ep1. To my amazement, there seems to be a common consensus that Homura can "stop the time" (self-reaffirming echo chamber), but I am not sure at all at the moment that this is correct. I have seen her "blink" (short-range teleport) multiple times (Charlotte fight, chase for the Sayaka SG), but if she's really able to manipulate time this way remains to be seen. We should keep "what the show explained" and "what the majority believes" apart.

3) I don't really get all those Nanoha comparisons. The worlds are so totally different in mood and nature that I consider it fallacious to apply concepts from one show to the other.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The problem isn't that she failed to kill him.

The problem is that she injured him and failed to kill him.

That suggests that she at least managed to get a clear shot off on him.

Now, if you have time freeze, you can freeze your target at any time. So once you spot your target, you can temporarily freeze him in place.

And Episode 8 shows that Homura has impressive aim, so...


I guess if you were to be really generous, you could conceive of a way for this to all fit, but it does seem odd to me...

How do you know Homura didn't kill Kyuubee like 200 times before we saw her chasing him, and Kyuubee was just lucky enough to survive for a few seconds. It doesn't really seem odd to me at all.

[Mentar]

In episode 8, QB said that Homura has killed (not injured - killed!) _twice_ so far. Not once, twice. What was the second time? It wasn't shown so far.

Therefore, I'm really hesitant to believe that all too many iterations have happened so far, based on that. Of course, there may have been lots of different timelines where Homura had sieved QB without him knowing, and one can argue that QB's memory only spans THIS timeline, but... if you subscribe to this theory, then it's strange that _Madoka_ remembers. Unless it means that Homura and Madoka have met in _this_ timeline.

I feel we don't have all the puzzle pieces yet. Gotta search some more before trying to put everything together.