[Manga] Chapter 251 Discussion

[Zu Ra]

I would love to see Ichi combat in this mode

Originally Posted by Dark`

That's irrelevant then, since he has undergone the training. Furthermore, go back and take a look at chapter 232. When his mask shattered, Ichigo had an "Oh s***!" look on his face. You could argue that his reaction could have been towards "11 seconds are up already so I have to break my mask?!" instead of to "Oh crap, this is my limit to how long I could keep my mask!"... but reference what his thinks to himself on page 20 of said chapter.

"!
My mask!!!"

If he wanted it to disappear/shatter before "V-Ichigo" took over, why would he say that? He seemed surprised that his mask shattered, that leads me to believe that it didn't go away because he wanted it to.

True now That I recall he has a rather puzzled or shocked expression on his face wanting it to stay on more . But does that not say Ichi after his mask shatters is rendered useless in combat and better off without the Bankai in Vizzard mode .

He doesn't have to bring out his mask when he goes bankai. Look up chapter 231. Ichigo went bankai, and then he pulled out his mask. Bankai =/= Mask form.

When is Ichi most vulnerable to his mask appearing (hollow side) when he goes Bankai . The mask has only appeared once in combat in non bankai mode vs Hiyori . But during Hiyori Vs Ichi squirmish . At that time frame though Clone hollow was in more control of Ichi i.e. Clone Hollow King and Ichi the stead/horse

Ichigo's mask appears when he is at the brink of death. Ichigo can call on his hollow but the Hollow can also choose to come at its own convenience when Ichi is at the brink of death or near death . And my point was in Bankai mode he is most vulnerable.

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

True now That I recall he has a rather puzzled or shocked expression on his face wanting it to stay on more . But does that not say Ichi after his mask shatters is rendered useless in combat and better off without the Bankai in Vizzard mode .

Agreed with better off without Bankai in Vizard/Hollow mode. But again, Bankai =/= Vizard/Hollow mode.

When is Ichi most vulnerable to his mask appearing (hollow side) when he goes Bankai . The mask has only appeared once in combat in non bankai mode vs Hiyori . But during Hiyori Vs Ichi squirmish . At that time frame though Clone hollow was in more control of Ichi i.e. Clone Hollow King and Ichi the stead/horse

Ichigo's mask appears when he is at the brink of death. Ichigo can call on his hollow but the Hollow can also choose to come at its own convenience when Ichi is at the brink of death or near death . And my point was in Bankai mode he is most vulnerable.

I believe you're referring to when Ichigo first approached the Vizards and demanded them to teach him how to control his Hollow, yes? If so...

Incorrect. After Ichigo defeated "V-Ichigo" and was training to extend the duration of his Vizard/Hollow mode, he trained against Hiyori in non-bankai Vizard/Hollow mode. Check chapter 225, you'll see what I'm talking about.

He may be more vulnerable in bankai mode, but that might be due to circumstance as well. Most of the time when he's fought the really tough battles, he's been in bankai. Since bankai is, for all intents and purposes, a shinigami's "Ace in the hole", if (Ichigo's) bankai starts to fail, then he is closest to the brink of death then of course. If he's getting his arse kicked with his shikai, he isn't really as close to the brink of death since he can still call on bankai. But when he's in bankai, he's got nothing left to call on, so of course "V-Ichigo" comes out, if just for self-preservation. I'm not disputing your argument, just thinking of the "why" behind it.

[Zu Ra]

Their is no dispute here just reasoning

The mask has only appeared once in combat in non bankai mode vs Hiyori .

Appeared as in came on its own . In chptr 225 Ichigo called upon his mask or used his hollow side . As he was now the King in Zangetsu World . In Combat when the clone hollow has forced its way to taking over . Never I have seen it in Non Bankai mode . The Hiyori incident ( before 225 ) yes but at that point Clone Hollow was controlling Ichi ( ie King and Horse )

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

I would love to see Ichi combat in this mode

Yes! I've been wanting to see berserker full-hollow Ichigo for a long time too. We didn't even see what he was capable of before Ichigo shed his skin and emerged in Vizard form. I'd really like to see how this form measures up to bankai vizard mode strength wise. I don't know if he'd be able to wield a zanpaktou effectively, but he can perform cero and can probably take a whole mess of damage. And since this form is closer that of a pure hollow he will probably get a huge power up from being in Hueco Mondo. I'd go so far to say that he might have the power of a vastrolorde in this form.

[Zu Ra]

I forgot all about this if you see Chad and Ishida in room filled with pillars . Do I see an Arrancar/Hollow like thing on the top of a pillar . Say arrancar , another Privalon Espada ? , hahaha more combat

[kagato3]

the Mask has appeered twice in non banki mode with out Ichgo calling it the first durring the second renji fight and durring the ken-chan fight both times it protected him from what would be killing blows and interestingly it stayed aroud for a long time afterward. The training with Hiyori implyed that the mask does not have to be worn as a mask to still have effect so he may have been able to call and hold his mask on an instincual level for much longer then his current 11 second limt and was fighting as a vizored durring both of thoses fights. It was only later that his fear of the hollow led to an imbalance in his powers.

Ishida was the only on in the room with the pillers, chad looked to be on a bridge with what looked to be the leg of an Arrancar in the foreground. this area is said to be the home of the ex Espada so it looks like all the oponets are going to be fairly powerfull

[SilverChakra]

I bet Nell's going to save Ichigo with some secret power of hers/his (still not sure if Nell is a boy or a girl, hehe..)

[majin_vegeta]

Is Chad finally going to die? I mean he is one of my favorite characters, but he hasn't shown any indications of power that will allow him to survive HM. This enemy may be beyond anything that he can withstand.

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Appeared as in came on its own . In chptr 225 Ichigo called upon his mask or used his hollow side . As he was now the King in Zangetsu World . In Combat when the clone hollow has forced its way to taking over . Never I have seen it in Non Bankai mode . The Hiyori incident ( before 225 ) yes but at that point Clone Hollow was controlling Ichi ( ie King and Horse )

Well, at the same time, how many times has the mask appeared when Ichigo was in bankai mode? Once, during his fight with Byakuya. Since then the mask has never again fully appeared on its own until his fight with Hiyori, in which he was not in bankai mode. True, "V-Ichigo" did seem like he was creeping up on Ichigo during the scuffle with Yammy, but the mask never fully materialised.

You can't say you've never seen "V-Ichigo" force its way to the top in non-bankai mode after that incident with Hiyori. Basically, so far it's come down to once in bankai mode and once non-bankai mode while in combat.

Originally Posted by majin_vegeta

Is Chad finally going to die? I mean he is one of my favorite characters, but he hasn't shown any indications of power that will allow him to survive HM. This enemy may be beyond anything that he can withstand.

Well... the same can be said for everyone there actually. Ichigo has basically lost to Grimmjaw twice, and he's not even the #1 Espada. Renji... even he was unsure if he could've beaten that non-Espada Arrancar if he had been fighting at full strength from the start. Rukia, from what we've been shown, lacks a bankai, and we know that her shikai does pretty much nothing against the #6 Espada. Furthermore, even Hitsugaya, the one who owns the strongest ice zanpakutou, could do nothing against the #10 Espada with his shikai. Ishida's the one kind of dark horse in the group, but I'm still not too sure of his chances against an Espada... so Sado's really not the only one we should be worrying about.