[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Oliver]

Forgot one option.

Erika may wish to avoid exposing Shkanon if she is part of Shkanon herself.

[Jan-Poo]

I thought about that option.

The problem is that while it solves many problems, it brings other problems.

I used "problem" trice in the same sentence...

[winter 923]

I think in every Episode there are only 16 People. You only have 16 Pieces in Chess. thats why Erika pushes it to 17 when she enters.

As i said somewhere else, i do think Erika goes after common theories and this time it was shkannon. Why did she not just say that Shannon and Kanon are 1 Human? It is not her goal, it is the way to get to the goal. To beat the Game. In EP5 she tries to make Natsushi the murderer, this is possible if she gets blackmailed by the 2nd Battler or by the Kinzo's Mistress theory. In EP6 she tries to win the Game by simply leading Battler in a logical Error, she knows he will not kill off his Family and fake it that is why she has to "re-kill" them. She knows he can use Shkannon that is why she put them both in different rooms observed by others and seal them.

If you think about it the game would be to easy if Battler just had asked Beatrice every 5 min "Is Body A still in Place X" that is not how you play this Game.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

So the term has come up, 'Rokkenjima Prime.' This world is like our world; it doesn't conform to Knox rules unless by accident. So I'm not saying the Episodes can't be real (as they exist as fiction) but that the Episode Rokkenjimas are not Rokkenjima Prime. Rokkenjima Prime is the one in the Author's world.

By "accident", yeah. Of course, if it follow Knox it is still design by Ryuukishi, but, nevermind.

Well, all things cleared up I can't say I like your theory. Too much complicated to my tastes. I don't disagree anymore, tough, as, for what I can understand, it don't contradict my own theories.

But, sorry for the words, what is the point of that theory? For what I can understand it is more like a 'guess of how it will end' then a tool to understand what happened in Rokkenjima, right?

Please, don't misunderstand me. Although I said I don't like it, I think it is a very interesting well thought theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it is what Ryuukishi is going for in the end. I just don't quite get how exactly this can used to discover the mystery. Or if it was your intention when creating the theory.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

We're not 100% sure that the message bottles contain the full text of the Episodes that we've been reading. Maybe for EP6, the scenes of Hachijou and Ange in her study are not...

That would be Hachijo's forgery right? The message bottle are just for the 2 first Episodes right? Anyway, what would be that scene then? Due the narration and Hachijo speech in the end, it can't be Reality.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

As for the ending roll; I'm not sure they are supposed to represent anything other than the way the game was played each episode. I mean the ending roll where they list who died; because it's inaccurate to what we already know. Kinzo doesn't die on any of the twilights and Battler was still running around after the first twilight in EP6.

By Ending Roll I mean the very first one. Latter they act more like a sumary of what happened in the Game Board. However, the first, in addition to that sumary, it also tell us how the first message bottle was discovered and how the children corpses were not found , except for Maria's jaw. Rereading, I also noticed that it never mention no one survived (although it mention the police thought, at first, that the chances of anyone survive was slim. But if Eva was in Kuwadoria at time, this would match) the accident and that it was just after the discovery of the message bottle that people started to believe it was a mass murder.

Going by your theory, this can be one of the only actual description of the Reality we got so far.

Originally Posted by Verg Avesta

Oh wow. I just realized Ryuukishi must have planned Erika a long time ago. When I happened to look that poem "Bern" had written as a extra TIPs, this rang a bell quite clearly in my mind. Emphasis mine.

Or then this was used as the inspiration for the backstory of Erika.

Gah! I knew I have read it somewhere before. That have been bugging me for quite some time, thank-you.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, I feel a bit stupid now. It was my own theory, and I didn't really understand how it worked, so I was forced to go with "Erika might not have figured out Shkanon if X" and so on. It's true that we don't know how Erika's perspective really works, but it would be nice if Ryuukishi had included some hints.

And...he actually did. I noticed this when I was translating, but then I must have forgotten about it.

Look at the scene when Erika is inspecting the guest room in EP6. There's something particularly odd about it. Even though it's Erika looking at everything, she asks Dlanor each time to tell her what she discovered, and it's Dlanor who explains the situation. If you then look back on the Episode, it's always Dlanor, Gertrude, or Cornelia who confirms the status of the seals for Erika.

I think this finally explains one of the biggest problems with Erika: namely, that she can see scenes that aren't shown by the Game Master. If the Game Master is allowed to include falsehoods in the story, then it isn't really fair for the players to see entire scenes without the Game Master's approval. Furthermore, since there are multiple possible stories at any given point during the game, there needs to be some way of knowing the Game Master's intent when checking things without their knowledge. In other words, you need someone who knows at least as much as the Game Master...

Dlanor is the only character on Bern's side who seems to know everything about Beato's game. It also appears that she's kept some things hidden from Erika, since it seems clear that she sealed off the blue in EP6 so that Beato would have to make the grand entrance she did. If Shkanon is true, then I'd be willing to bet that Dlanor knows about it.

So, in order to get information available to the detective that hasn't been shown in the narrative, the player must rely on a meta-character who knows more about the story than they do. This happened in the question arcs too, when Battler asked Virgilia to describe the crime scenes in EP3. In these cases, the detective must ask to obtain specific bits of information, so unless they ask "were Shannon and Kanon both in this room", they won't get that information. So, it's possible for things that don't directly relate to the crime to get ignored.

That kinda make sense. It would explain a lot. But how can her move freely outside the narration then? Did she just ordered her piece "go and kill everybody" but never actually saw that happening?

Also, by that theory, we have to assume there is a rule forbidding the meta characters to say too much to the detective right? How much can they reveal, then? Just what Piece!Detective could know?

By 'Detective' I mean both Battler and Erika, in the respective Episodes.

(I am having some problems with the forum connexion. Hope I don't end up posting it multiple times by accident)

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Heatth

That kinda make sense. It would explain a lot. But how can her move freely outside the narration then? Did she just ordered her piece "go and kill everybody" but never actually saw that happening?

Possibly. I imagine that Dlanor would tell her the results of her actions, much like Virgilia explained the parts between "official" scenes for Battler. In fact, it might have been necessary for Dlanor to tell Erika that they were alive before Erika killed them, since, though Erika suspected it, she probably couldn't have proven it at that point in time.

In other words, the Game Master is the only one capable of showing "the tale" in all its fullness, but Dlanor and Virgilia can describe what's going on on the game board if asked.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Also, by that theory, we have to assume there is a rule forbidding the meta characters to say too much to the detective right? How much can they reveal, then? Just what Piece!Detective could know?

I imagine that it follows what the piece-detective is capable of witnessing, if the meta-detective asks the right questions. It's a bit hard to know this though, since we can't be sure what everyone's motives are (or even who's actually controlling Dlanor).

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, don't forget the critical layer of Actual Reality - Our World - Ryukishi07 on top of everything.
That is, if you believe this layer is on the top...

I refuse to believe Ryukishi07 exists!

Originally Posted by winter 923

I think in every Episode there are only 16 People. You only have 16 Pieces in Chess. thats why Erika pushes it to 17 when she enters.

Hmm.. this is what I think as well. But technically speaking chess is played with 32 pieces, right? If Rokkenjima has only 16, the first thought would be that there are 16 human pieces and 16 magic pieces, like including the stakes, gaap, virgilia, ronove, beatrice, right?

But.. what if it's 8 vs. 8 with no pawns? This is because we've compared Maria before to the Black King in EP1-4, since she wears a black crown and seems to be the magic observer for Beatrice.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Heatth

As said, it is not like they always do the most intelligent thing all times. Also, I actually believe defending 2 rooms is more easy then the main hall. Each room has only 2 entrance, each one easy to be defended. It is also on the second floor, so it is not that easy invade through the window. The main hall, by the other side, has he main entrance, the corridor and a huge glass window in the first floor. Not the most ideal stronghold.

But, yeah, separating in two rooms is not particularly smart. In the end, rolling up in the Parlor proved to be the best idea (or hiding in Kinzo's study).

Except that everyone other than Erika knew that there was no danger and the whole thing was a hoax.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, I feel a bit stupid now. It was my own theory, and I didn't really understand how it worked, so I was forced to go with "Erika might not have figured out Shkanon if X" and so on. It's true that we don't know how Erika's perspective really works, but it would be nice if Ryuukishi had included some hints.

I think that piece-Erika was in on "Operation Frame Natsuhi", but meta-Erika was completely unaware of it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I think that piece-Erika was in on "Operation Frame Natsuhi", but meta-Erika was completely unaware of it.

Hmm, are you saying that the entire setup existed to frame Natsuhi in EP5, or that there were two separate plots? Personally, I think that Hideyoshi's murder in the guest room was real and the work of someone entirely different from the ones behind the first twilight. I don't think everyone would just watch Eva beat up Natsuhi unless they really suspected the latter of killing Hideyoshi. Especially Battler.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I refuse to believe Ryukishi07 exists!

Don't worry, he doesn't.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

But.. what if it's 8 vs. 8 with no pawns? This is because we've compared Maria before to the Black King in EP1-4, since she wears a black crown and seems to be the magic observer for Beatrice.

While chess metaphors serve to reinforce the idea of "intellectual game", I very much doubt they are applicable to the number-of-people puzzle, for the simple reason that chess is a full information game. That is, unless it's crazyhouse, but even then the sides are radically different, and in Ep6, concepts are increasingly referred to as pieces and apparently can be created in place -- which starts all the way back in Ep3.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Possibly. I imagine that Dlanor would tell her the results of her actions, much like Virgilia explained the parts between "official" scenes for Battler. In fact, it might have been necessary for Dlanor to tell Erika that they were alive before Erika killed them, since, though Erika suspected it, she probably couldn't have proven it at that point in time.

Nah, Erika would have 'killed' then even if they were already 'dead'. That was the whole point, since she can't be sure they were not faking (even if she found then 'dead', there would be no red text) she killed then. That remembered me a portuguese joke.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I imagine that it follows what the piece-detective is capable of witnessing, if the meta-detective asks the right questions. It's a bit hard to know this though, since we can't be sure what everyone's motives are (or even who's actually controlling Dlanor).

I suppose. Well, Virgilia was clearly in the side of both Battler and Beatrice. Specially now we know Beatrice wanted Battler to win the whole time.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I refuse to believe Ryukishi07 exists!

Wel, I believe he is actually a woman now. Any public appearance 'he' have made was obviously a fake. Naturally, his actual name is somewhat related to 18^8

Originally Posted by Kylon99

But.. what if it's 8 vs. 8 with no pawns? This is because we've compared Maria before to the Black King in EP1-4, since she wears a black crown and seems to be the magic observer for Beatrice.

I don't think anymore it work that way. Ep6 have some new metaphor, and it said Beatrice Piece is the Queen, the King and the Knigh (talk about an overpowered piece). I doubt there is a clear relationship between the characters and the chess pieces.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Except that everyone other than Erika knew that there was no danger and the whole thing was a hoax.

Eh, how you are sure? This is a possibility, sure. It would explain some things. But, as it was mentioned, it is hard to think Krauss, Hideyoshi and Rudolf would low thenselves so much to the point of fake cry in front a child. It is also hard believe they could fake so well.

There was a discussion about it in the Ep6 thread.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I think that piece-Erika was in on "Operation Frame Natsuhi", but meta-Erika was completely unaware of it.

Personally, I don't think Piece!Erika was inside it. I believe Eva manipulated her to corner Natsuhi. Of course, I have no proof for that. Still have to re read Ep5.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, are you saying that the entire setup existed to frame Natsuhi in EP5, or that there were two separate plots? Personally, I think that Hideyoshi's murder in the guest room was real and the work of someone entirely different from the ones behind the first twilight. I don't think everyone would just watch Eva beat up Natsuhi unless they really suspected the latter of killing Hideyoshi. Especially Battler.

But then we have another problem. At last some of then must know the first murders were staged right? Wouldn't they panic now knowing that there was actually a real murder? Or they panic and I haven't noticed? It have been quite a some time since I read Ep5, after all. Either way, why not revel the farce now?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Please, don't misunderstand me. Although I said I don't like it, I think it is a very interesting well thought theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it is what Ryuukishi is going for in the end. I just don't quite get how exactly this can used to discover the mystery. Or if it was your intention when creating the theory.

Well the Author Theory requires an author. And so far we've been led to believe that Hachijou is the author of EP3-6. (I'm thinking she *found* EP3-4 though and wrote EP5-6.) But there must be another Author for EP1-2 whom we call Beatrice because of the match in handwriting.

Because the Author knows so much about what's going on on Rokkenjima, she must know something of the truth which she leaves behind in the stories.

You can still use what is going on in the episodes to try and discover the truth. But you can also try to track down who the author is based on the person most likely to have done this and by the truths she must know in order to have written this. Because this author cannot have just popped out of nowhere and written about the Rokkenjima Explosion Incident.

Originally Posted by Heatth

That would be Hachijo's forgery right? The message bottle are just for the 2 first Episodes right? Anyway, what would be that scene then? Due the narration and Hachijo speech in the end, it can't be Reality.

Right. It's possible that the message bottles describe only EP1-2. It's never really said how many. Theoretically there could be many more stories though but in the end it's really about who the authors are. And as for Hachijou, I'm thinking that she's trying to include real elements in order to promote her story a bit more, so putting a scene of herself and Ange would do that.

Originally Posted by Heatth

By Ending Roll I mean the very first one. Latter they act more like a sumary of what happened in the Game Board. However, the first, in addition to that sumary, it also tell us how the first message bottle was discovered and how the children corpses were not found , except for Maria's jaw. Rereading, I also noticed that it never mention no one survived (although it mention the police thought, at first, that the chances of anyone survive was slim. But if Eva was in Kuwadoria at time, this would match) the accident and that it was just after the discovery of the message bottle that people started to believe it was a mass murder.

Going by your theory, this can be one of the only actual description of the Reality we got so far.

Well, there are actually more. Ultimately we don't have, and probably will never get a view of Rokkenjima Prime. But we do have scenes from the Epsiodes which are a reflection of reality.

Like for example if you have a story about some characters on the Titanic. They may be fictional, but the Titanic and the story about how it sunk (the iceberg, the splitting of the hull, the temperature of the water, etc) must reflect reality. Titanic the movie however is fictional, but the director used the fictional characters to guide us through the events. Like for example the Captain was not fictional but maybe some of his crew was.

So for example in Umineko, the idea that Kinzo is dead starting of all games (episodes) must be a reflection of Rokkenjima Prime. The author(s) must know this before being able to write. There are many other things which form the 'setting' and particulars of Rokkenjima that the Author must know before she can write. Another example is the 10th Twilight Bomb leading to the Geological Event. We call this 'Core Truth' and it's similar to Red Text. If an author writes with this wrong, then people can realize that the author doesn't know the truth very easily. Like if Cameron changed the story of the Titanic so that they repaired the hull and sailed on and everyone had a happy ending. 8)

Similarly, there are things which are just unknown at the time, or can't be known which allow for the Author to speculate. Who got their hands on the guns; if they did at all? Where did they run to? Did they even know a murderer was loose? Did they know about the bomb? This is similar to Blue Text.

I figure there should be an analog to the Gold Text at the author level. It may have something to do with how the author can choose to make things true for their particular story but not for all stories.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Nah, Erika would have 'killed' then even if they were already 'dead'. That was the whole point, since she can't be sure they were not faking (even if she found then 'dead', there would be no red text) she killed then. That remembered me a portuguese joke.

Yes, but Erika was also able to state in red "they were alive until I killed them". She had to have some way of knowing that.

Originally Posted by Heatth

But then we have another problem. At last some of then must know the first murders were staged right? Wouldn't they panic now knowing that there was actually a real murder? Or they panic and I haven't noticed? It have been quite a some time since I read Ep5, after all. Either way, why not revel the farce now?

At least Eva seemed to freak out completely. We aren't given a good look at the reactions of most of the characters for that one, and it's possible that some of them thought it was another fake at first.

I do think that Battler was about to reveal the farce at the very end (it's all useless). Still, if I had to guess, I'd think that he suspected Erika. Remember, Erika wasn't with the group at the time Hideyoshi's body was found. If it weren't for the detective's proclamation, she's the most suspicious person by far (except for Natsuhi). It could be that Battler wanted to keep her in the dark as long as possible. Or, it could be that he and the others really did suspect Natsuhi, as the description of the scene suggests they did.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yes, but Erika was also able to state in red "they were alive until I killed them". She had to have some way of knowing that.

I assume that if you try stab someone that is playing dead then the least you can expect is a scream or some form of resistance. It's not like it's difficult to understand that they were alive at that point.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Well the Author Theory requires an author. And so far we've been led to believe that Hachijou is the author of EP3-6. (I'm thinking she *found* EP3-4 though and wrote EP5-6.) But there must be another Author for EP1-2 whom we call Beatrice because of the match in handwriting.

Because the Author knows so much about what's going on on Rokkenjima, she must know something of the truth which she leaves behind in the stories.

That line of reasoning is still possible without your theory. That is what I meant. Even assuming Ange scenes were real deal (not being yet another fiction, as you propose), there is still the mystery about the one who wrote the first message bottle.

...However, haven't all clues in Ep6 pointed to Shannon now? If we accept she is Beatrice, the she is probably the Beatrice who have been playing with Maria the whole time. If so, she is also the one who wrote the message bottle.

Heh, look how interesting now. In Ep2, the only flashbacks are about either Shannon or Kanon. Things that just then, Jessica or George should know.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

You can still use what is going on in the episodes to try and discover the truth. But you can also try to track down who the author is based on the person most likely to have done this and by the truths she must know in order to have written this. Because this author cannot have just popped out of nowhere and written about the Rokkenjima Explosion Incident.

Sorry, now you are talking about which author? The one from the message bottle (who I believe it is Shannon) or the one from the forgeries ("Hachijo")? IF the second, at last Ep6 implies she just guessed about the 'True' and started to invent. I agree there are a few things she shouldn't know, tough. Particularly about the 'Man of 19 years ago' and 'Rosa's Beatrice'.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Well, there are actually more. Ultimately we don't have, and probably will never get a view of Rokkenjima Prime. But we do have scenes from the Epsiodes which are a reflection of reality.

I meant that End Roll might be the only direct description of the Reality. Not 'something similar as it happened', but 'what actually happened'. The content of the End Roll match with what is said in Ep4 about the message bottle, so it can't be inside the message bottle itself.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yes, but Erika was also able to state in red "they were alive until I killed them". She had to have some way of knowing that.

Ah, sorry, it was just a small nitpick about how Erika didn't need to confirm if they were alive or not before killing then. She could have asked Dlanor only latter if there were alive. Anyway, it don't matter, sorry.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

At least Eva seemed to freak out completely. We aren't given a good look at the reactions of most of the characters for that one, and it's possible that some of them thought it was another fake at first.

I do think that Battler was about to reveal the farce at the very end (it's all useless). Still, if I had to guess, I'd think that he suspected Erika. Remember, Erika wasn't with the group at the time Hideyoshi's body was found. If it weren't for the detective's proclamation, she's the most suspicious person by far (except for Natsuhi). It could be that Battler wanted to keep her in the dark as long as possible. Or, it could be that he and the others really did suspect Natsuhi, as the description of the scene suggests they did.

I see. Hmm, I seem I really have to reread Ep5. To say the truth I was a bit annoyed when reading it the first time. Missed too much stuff.

Anyway, Battler being about to reveal about the farce at the end make sense. Too bad we never get to see Erika reaction to that.

[Renall]

Come to think of it, how does Erika know someone is alive before killing them?

Think about it. Isn't it equally impossible to prove someone is alive with 100% certainty without the detective's privilege?

...unless they woke up and started moving around first.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Sniesk

I assume that if you try stab someone that is playing dead then the least you can expect is a scream or some form of resistance. It's not like it's difficult to understand that they were alive at that point.

Yes, but remember that Umineko is like a cat box. Unless the Game Master says something in red, it's possible for them to go back and change the story to something else.

So, Erika and Dlanor could only "know" that those people were alive for one of two possible reasons. Either the type of story Battler chose could only have resulted in those people being alive...or the Game Master's current plan in his head is always "active" on the game board.

By the second one, I mean that the Game Master can go back and change things at will as long as they don't conflict with what the detective has seen or any of the red text, but if the detective discovers a fact on the game board that the Game Master didn't want them to know, then the Game Master's temporary theory becomes a red truth, at least where that detective's observation is concerned. In other words, by making the detective piece see things, the meta-detective can peek into the Game Master's current plan.

Either way, to actually say in red that they were alive would probably take someone who knows more about how the game works than Erika or even Bern.

[winter 923]

Ya this is where it gets strange. Are the Demons the other 16 Pieces? is it 8vs8? The Pieces also change from Episode to Episode so i heard. Were there ever 2 Kings or Queens shown?

Spoiler for About the Author thing:

"No one knows who created Chess." Means no one knows who started this Game. lets say EP4 is the best next thing that can be the real world (-the Magic) I am going with GM=Author
EP 1-2 was written by Maria a synonym ofc. He realizes that his story has flows thus releasing his works with the endline "Please find the truth -Maria" i read that as please show me what i am missing for the truth.
EP 3 is written by Maria, he is eighter statified with it or sick with it.
EP 4 Author Y finds EP3 useful and eighter uses Maria's works to create his own story or the both do a colabo.
EP 5 the same Author Y tries to go around looking at different theories from other users but because he has no love for the story he can not really complete it.
EP 6 here it gets strange. actually. we have so many worlds in it that i can not gap it.

Spoiler for more ranting:

ofc the Author would be Hachijou Tooya BUT what is up with the Trolling? We have 2 Gameboards! All the love pairs are standing before a second Gameboard. Many Rokkenjima 1986 events do not have a Date, this means it happens not on the intended Gameboard. Particularly after the Dinner with Erika it is completely ABSURD. Erika talking with Piece!Battler about red truth? This may be a user meddling with Tooya

Some Chapters are long and have Rokkenjima 1986 events in it but then change the place but the beginning of a Chapter always has a Date if it is "on" Oct 4-5 1986 Rokkenjima but not EP6. Why? because so many things are off the board.
Why do i think that EP 4 is the most real world? Every EP has at least some Dates, EP4 does not. Not a single chapters has a Date. I will not accept "because there was no room for it" EP6 got 18 chapters. EP4 got 19 chapters, naturaly i only mean the outcome and not the Magic.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Heatth

...However, haven't all clues in Ep6 pointed to Shannon now? If we accept she is Beatrice, the she is probably the Beatrice who have been playing with Maria the whole time. If so, she is also the one who wrote the message bottle.

Sorry, now you are talking about which author? The one from the message bottle (who I believe it is Shannon) or the one from the forgeries ("Hachijo")?

By 'author' I mean we should be looking for the author of EP1-2. Not Hachijou or the later episodes. And yes, I think we all believe it to be Shannon now. You gotta remember this theory was posted in January. 8)

Shannon is the one person whom I believe to be in the unique position to be involved or at least seen most if not all of the conspiracies on the island. Krauss, Kinzo, the servants, Eva's conspiracy against Krauss (from George) and whatever George and/or Hideyoshi has planned. And some of her own conspiracies as well. So she seems likely to be the one who could anticipate how these conspiracies could crash together.

Originally Posted by Heatth

That line of reasoning is still possible without your theory. That is what I meant.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. That line of reasoning IS my theory.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

By 'author' I mean we should be looking for the author of EP1-2. Not Hachijou or the later episodes. And yes, I think we all believe it to be Shannon now. You gotta remember this theory was posted in January. 8)

Sorry, I didn't looked at the date.

But, hey, that mean you wrote it before reading Ep6? That is pretty impressive.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. That line of reasoning IS my theory.

I mean, since Ep4 we know that discovering who wrote the message bottle is something important. Now, if we assume Hachijo wrote about everything in the Ep3-6, it may be interesting to guess how she would know about the backstory (assuming she didn't just invented that). This without even thinking the 1998 bits were also fiction.

Anyway, I suppose everyone has it own line of thinking.

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yes, but remember that Umineko is like a cat box. Unless the Game Master says something in red, it's possible for them to go back and change the story to something else.

So, Erika and Dlanor could only "know" that those people were alive for one of two possible reasons. Either the type of story Battler chose could only have resulted in those people being alive...or the Game Master's current plan in his head is always "active" on the game board.

By the second one, I mean that the Game Master can go back and change things at will as long as they don't conflict with what the detective has seen or any of the red text, but if the detective discovers a fact on the game board that the Game Master didn't want them to know, then the Game Master's temporary theory becomes a red truth, at least where that detective's observation is concerned. In other words, by making the detective piece see things, the meta-detective can peek into the Game Master's current plan.

Either way, to actually say in red that they were alive would probably take someone who knows more about how the game works than Erika or even Bern.

The problem is that ep6 is the only one where we have no Meta-Character with Detective Autority on the gameboard (Battler still had it in ep1-4 even if he didn't know) so it's hard to speculate about this mechanic. You are right about that the GM being able to change the story that has already happen but would Battler really do it against Erika? I think he doesn't want to abuse the fact that she is not the detective. Even Beatrice at the end admit that she would not use a trick in witch her board perspective is faked, like make her being the rescuer.
Also even if " It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard" why should the human side piece "lie" to herself? Also i don't think the GM can change something the player (Meta-Erika) did. So if Meta Erika commanded her piece to "certainly" kill them, it would be strange for the gm to be able to "cancel" this command. So she is then able to claim their death in red, as it was an action she performed. The fact about them being alive is a direct consequence of this. Battler could probably change the story to make them dead shortly before she killed them but he didn't even know she was doing that (and it is actually strange why he didn't notice Erika actions)