Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Archon_Wing]

While it is narrow minded to refuse to look at something from another perspective and to not acknowledge that certain things have purpose, it would also help to understand nothing is universally appreciated. Not even boobs!

For example, when i think of very thought provoking and deep anime, I grab something like Serial Experiments Lain. It was thoughtful and didn't waste a single second of its time, flooding every scene with subtlety and thought about the world it created and its characters. Now, plenty of people dismiss it as boring and unengaged, and I could scream at them for not getting it. But honestly, just saying to people "You don't understand the genius of this" doesn't help. If it didn't reach them, then the message didn't work. It's not necessarily the fault of the creator, but it's not always the fault of the viewer. The first goal of watching anime tends to be entertaining. It's hard to come up with something that is widely considered engaging and thought provoking. I don't lecture them on how to watch.

So one shouldn't be frustrated and dismiss people for not understanding something and pulling out "tons of people think it's genius" is not helping the cause either.

There are also anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime that is beautifully directed but has some controversial messages. If someone is fundamentally opposed to its message, it doesn't mean they are idiots that didn't try to understand it. (sometimes...) Some people did get the message and refused it.

A long time ago, I made a joking term called "KyoAni exceptionalism", meaning I felt that Kyoani shows seemed to be immune to criticism. That is, they could get away with stuff that other shows can't. Let's just say if Shakugan no Shana II aired 8 episodes of the same thing, then I don't think people would be defending that as much. I'm not debating that here, but I'm wondering. Why does Nisemongatari require that I give it so much leeway and spend so much time figuring out on why something it does is legitimate, while generic ecchi series #36 gets panned for tossing in fanservice? Would you guys laugh at me, if say I tried to explain away scenes in Yosuga no Sora such as "No, it just shows the closeness in the relationship!" Because I could, yet a lot of you would just laugh at me.

My point is that for a show to give me such a leeway, it has to be earned. Has monogatari invited me to think deeply about these things? Once in a while I guess. I'm not necessarily a fan, but I find the show amusing, so I guess that's what matters in the end.

TL;DR You can't force people to like things. Sometimes they do get it but just don't give a damn. Life's too short.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

2. The toothbrushing scene is among the most erotic I've seen in anime. I disagree completely with the idea that it is less effective than other fanservice in this show. This is a classic. Of course, so was the Shinobu/Koyomi bathing scene, although it was not particularly erotic.

Regardless, I'm curious as to what you think of my idea that the scene would have been more effective if Koyomi's monologue had ended with "Kanbaru-sensei's fetishtic ideas will lead to your defeat". Normally I'm a big fan of Bake/Nise dialogue, but I really do think that this is a case where it might have been better to go back to "show, don't tell" - although my own attempt to simulate this (AKA flipping the subs off during the scene) suggests this would necessitate shortening the scene as well.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

6. Shinbou may have said that he does it for the money, but that is just Shinbou being Shinbou. Most artists do all their best work for money. Money is only part of the motivation. Once you start to work, your creativity takes over.

He probably doesn't want to admit he does it for the women:
http://cowboybibimbop.soup.io/post/152680098/

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Now, one might well feel that there is no good reason to attempt to "understand" racists. But anime is a matter of entertainment; and in Nisemonogatari's case, mass entertainment, representing the enjoyment of a very sizeable audience.

I know some things that I don't find entertaining in the least that are far, far more popular than any anime show, with much larger audiences by several magnitudes.

Should I endeavor to embrace Twilight and its fandom's enjoyment of it, or should I be true to my own tastes in entertainment?

Most people I know disagree with the notion that "popular" automatically equals "good quality entertainment".

All human perspectives deserving at least some level of base respect and dignity, at least on trivial matters such as these regarding fiction and entertainment, I do not feel there is any meaning in criticizing the enjoyment of that majority.

People criticize the very popular when they think it doesn't deserve the popularity.

My suspicion is that most people here have done that at least one time or another - Lambasted Twilight or disliked how people make such a big deal out of Reality TV or rage at Michael Bay movies doing so well.

It's only natural, imo.

That is to say, like another poster said, I do feel regret that some people were not satisfied with this episode. However, those people who were not satisfied should also try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many others over this episode.

Should somebody who hates Michael Bay movies try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many Transformers fans?

It's statements like these which occasionally make me think you might be more cynical than myself, Triple_R. :P As a matter of gratuity, there is a lot more you could do beyond a rather tame scene of a sibling brushing the teeth of another.

So you think this scene is rather tame? If so, why is it worth hyping up at all?

No, judging by audience reaction, it wasn't tame. I think Nishio was aiming to sexually arouse himself (which is his right, I'm not questioning that), not merely to engage in absurdity for its own sake.

As a matter of fact, life and people themselves do not always have meaning, or are not always serious.

Loads of people disagree with that, and I think that I myself do (unless I'm misreading you here). Do not just assume that philosophical opinions are "facts".

One prominent example of this which I do now have knowledge of regards a previous example of fanservice I remember you noting seemed ill-fitting as an introduction to the series--namely Hanekawa's panty-shot. I think certain posters (such as Malkuth) might be able to provide a better summary of why that event actually has a surprising degree of significance,

It was foreshadowing, from what I can recall reading about it. The anime could have progressed decently without it. It's fine if people enjoyed it, but it's also fine for other people (like myself) to consider it a rather loud (for good or for ill) way to kick off a series.

In the same way it could probably be said that the *monogatari series as a whole is simply a trivial story regarding Araragi and his relationships. The narrative simply records Koyomi and his journey, the only two finite end points being an eternity of solitude together with Shinobu or a "proper" life as a redeemed human together with Hitagi. As an intermediate step on this journey, comes Koyomi's current entanglement with Karen (who has now twice openly stated she is in love with him). Even if this romantic/sexual tension never leads to an actual relationship, it must still at the least receive a resolution by narrative necessity (for example: what sort of developments will result upon Karen discovering that Koyomi has a girlfriend in Hitagi?).

But such a resolution means that if such romantic/sexual tension was never there in the first place it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Now if Karen goes and does something extreme based on her feelings - Like, say, get in a fight with Hitagi - Then that's different. But if she just begrudgingly accepts Koyomi/Hitagi then I really don't see much point to this episode, and certainly not to the fanservice scene in question.

[omimon]

I see things have finally quiet down after two days of heavy debate.

Anyways you gotta love that incest whether or not it was needed or not.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Thoughtful replies get thoughtful answers.

...

However, authors may have intentions and they may genuinely try to do something they think is interesting, and in the end... I might not like it. Does not matter if I don't get it or not, I just thought it was a bad idea. To be honest, I thought part of the problem with this scene besides employing it with the wrong characters, drawing it out too long in a grandeur manner, and establishing little to no plot was the fact that I thought it wasn't absurd enough. I'm not talking about directing here, but content. The grandeur and egotistical nature of Shinbo's directing this episode just did not match the content. It simply wasn't as racy or titillating as one would expect for fanservice. It was just boring, the worst kind of bad to me.

I will say here, that I can somewhat understand where this perspective is coming from. Echoing also Clarste's earlier comment expressing that, for all the hype the toothbrush scene got, he might have expected something even more outrageous. From my own perspective, my reaction was somewhat mild, laughing a bit at all the absurdity but making a lot of the more explosive reactions across the internet clearly exaggerated. However, it was the sheer number and strength of those positive reactions which convinced that this episode was worth voicing my praise and voting for. I think it was great and was personally very happy to witness this episode generating that much of a reaction from the audience. That's why I've been posting in defense of it.


On your other criticisms, all I can say is that while I can understand your personal distaste towards fanservice and incest themes, they are an integral part of the *monogatari series (particularly the fanservice). While it is likely true, as other posters have stated, that this Nisemonogatari season will feature the most excessive and egregious amount of it, it is essentially a certainty that this sort of thing will always be present through all of the series. Furthermore, although you've stated your admiration for Nishio, I wonder if you can accept that the perversion/eroticism on display here is very much a genuine part of his work as a writer. Nishio writes for the gratuity of the audience as much as he writes for the gratuity of his own self, all the while interspersing it with true ideas and emotions he wishes to convey to the audience. So you should probably prepare yourself to see stuff like this pop up again and continue.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I know some things that I don't find entertaining in the least that are far, far more popular than any anime show, with much larger audiences by several magnitudes.

Should I endeavor to embrace Twilight and its fandom's enjoyment of it, or should I be true to my own tastes in entertainment?

Most people I know disagree with the notion that "popular" automatically equals "good quality entertainment".

People criticize the very popular when they think it doesn't deserve the popularity.

My suspicion is that most people here have done that at least one time or another - Lambasted Twilight or disliked how people make such a big deal out of Reality TV or rage at Michael Bay movies doing so well.

It's only natural, imo.

Should somebody who hates Michael Bay movies try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many Transformers fans?

...It might come as a surprise to you that I actually would disagree with any person who spends time criticizing the tastes of an obvious majority. Twilight is successful because it appeals to a specific demographic--that demographic has as much right to its own tastes as any other person or group of people. My own course of action according to my disinterest in Twilight is to simply avoid discussions involving it entirely. In the event that I would like to expand the tastes of the Twilight demographic, or an individual Twilight fan, rather than criticizing their interests or calling them "shallow" I would simply endeavour to show them something even better. If there is any such work which could in fact be called "undeserving" of its popularity, that fact will independently make itself known without criticism as people grow tired of it and move onto something more interesting.

For the record, my maxim is "popular is better". The works which manage to reach all of humanity are far more significant than the ones which find only a niche audience (uneven factors like distribution and marketing do come in, but as a general rule a work's quality can be measured by it's ability to reach out to its audience). Nisemonogatari and Bakemonogatari are presently two of the most outstanding works in the anime medium, and if SHAFT manages to complete the entire light novel series to consistent ~60000 sales averages, they will surely have legitimately made history.

So you think this scene is rather tame? If so, why is it worth hyping up at all?

No, judging by audience reaction, it wasn't tame. I think Nishio was aiming to sexually arouse himself (which is his right, I'm not questioning that), not merely to engage in absurdity for its own sake.

It's worth hyping because people enjoyed it, and far more people than could be reached with just any work of gratuity. Whether for 1) managing to convey an extraordinary degree of absurdist humour which pulled in even audiences not normally inclined to celebrate blatant gratuity, or 2) managing to convey an extraordinary degree of eroticism unexpectedly despite the externally tame parameters of "brushing the teeth of one's sister", the scene reached a wider audience than is achievable with conventional fanservice (as well evidenced by comparison to the response generated by earlier fanservice scenes in this very show). The extent of those positive reactions are what justify the praise it has received (not least from myself) as a consequence.

Loads of people disagree with that, and I think that I myself do (unless I'm misreading you here). Do not just assume that philosophical opinions are "facts".

All I can say here is that it is a "philosophical opinion" supported in the text of the story itself, as well as one characteristic of Nishio Ishin who went so far as to title his debut series of novels Zaregoto (戯言, literally "nonsense"). Nishio Ishin's writings may or may not often attempt to achieve genuine "meaning", but they are also pervasively and keenly aware of the nearpossible futility of doing so.

It was foreshadowing, from what I can recall reading about it. The anime could have progressed decently without it. It's fine if people enjoyed it, but it's also fine for other people (like myself) to consider it a rather loud (for good or for ill) way to kick off a series.

Actually, that is incorrect. It's a reference to something much more important than that. If you'd like to know more, I suppose I could PM you the spoilers.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I will say here, that I can somewhat understand where this perspective is coming from. Echoing also Clarste's earlier comment expressing that, for all the hype the toothbrush scene got, he might have expected something even more outrageous. From my own perspective, my reaction was somewhat mild, laughing a bit at all the absurdity but making a lot of the more explosive reactions across the internet clearly exaggerated. However, it was the sheer number and strength of those positive reactions which convinced that this episode was worth voicing my praise and voting for. I think it was great and was personally very happy to witness this episode generating that much of a reaction from the audience. That's why I've been posting in defense of it.

I find some of your reasoning odd. I get the idea that how people react as a group to it weighs in on your assessing of its quality. Sure some works of art that manage to transcend time and be remembered for eons afterwards are worthy of some praise, but we will never really know if Bake is an example of this in the anime medium. It takes a lot to become like Gundam, or Evangelion. I respect that these series have managed to become timeless, but even if I respect that I don't think I have to like it. Personal meaning and opinion should always be the dominant factor here? If you truly got mild entertainment out of it, shouldn't you only assess it mildly? I don't know that's just me.

Now I'm not saying that people couldn't genuinely find this good, to me it's just not my cup of tea. However, I do express certain concerns regarding the narrative structure of nisemonogatari as a whole and it's why this provoked out of me an upset reaction. Thanks for being understanding anyways

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

On your other criticisms, all I can say is that while I can understand your personal distaste towards fanservice and incest themes, they are an integral part of the *monogatari series (particularly the fanservice). While it is likely true, as other posters have stated, that this Nisemonogatari season will feature the most excessive and egregious amount of it, it is essentially a certainty that this sort of thing will always be present through all of the series. Furthermore, although you've stated your admiration for Nishio, I wonder if you can accept that the perversion/eroticism on display here is very much a genuine part of his work as a writer. Nishio writes for the gratuity of the audience as much as he writes for the gratuity of his own self, all the while interspersing it with true ideas and emotions he wishes to convey to the audience. So you should probably prepare yourself to see stuff like this pop up again and continue.

I'm not a huge fan of fanservice no, but I feel the uses of fanservice in Nise are nowhere near as clever or as suave as that of Bake. To bring up Nisio's more zesty moments in Katanagatari for example, I always found the sexual imagery there to be rather hilarious and amusing. I realize that's part of him as a writer, but sometimes creators can take things too far. For me he uses those elements most strongly when he keeps himself in control. Right now it's hard to distinguish between his use of fanservice here and the use of fanservice in something like Strike Witches.

But like I said before, I found the Shinobu scene to be far more explicit in every way, and yet that didn't bother me in the slightest. I actually had no problems there.

[Ceral]

That toothbrushing scene was awesome, it has me elated enough to want to come to this forum and... I dunno... celebrate such a great episode? While watching the scene I entered one of those trances where you forget about everything else and just enjoy every moment.

Since this is Shaft, I only expect insanity, and since Koyomi likes to molest elementary girls, I really don't hold any standards to him, so I just watch.

These guys are nuts and I think they're driving me nuts, but I love it. Every little bizzare detail, like the shining "blimp skeleton", hanging in the room, it makes me think "wtf is that doing in his room?". And after the brushing scene they have a moment where they show it glittering? With it's shape? Lol, "You crazy bastards".

A few years ago, I would have thought wtf is all this shit and struggled to make sense of it. But the best part about this show is that they don't hold to convention, that they can go completely ape shit with any scene, e.g. Tsukihi breaking through walls to leave the house, or more subtle details like her having triangle eyes. I don't read the forums or the novel, so an episode devoted to erotically brushing your little sisters teeth was completely unexpected. Yet you expect the unexpected when watching the show. That's the beauty of it. Of course, leave it to Shaft to make such a scene so awesome. A part of me wishes every episode were like this.

[Skyfall]

Personally I didn't think much of the toothbrush scene. I suppose I have never seen tooth brushing presented in anime like that, so there was a certain novelty factor to it, but most it did was raise a few eyebrows from me for the sheer absurdity of it. (No objections to a hot and bothered Karen though ... she should consider wearing those clothes more often!).

All in all Nisemonogatari is choke-full of absurdity and exaggeration, so this very much felt like just another day in the Nise world. The incestuous undertones didn't really sway me one way or another (I'm pretty neutral on the subject in general and see it just as another vessel for storytelling in case of anime, so it neither excites or offends me on it's own), but it did get a few good chuckles out of me (Koyomi's "evil" faces in particular ), so overall I was mildly entertained with the bizareness of it all - just like with the show on a whole.

What does strike me a bit odd though is seeing several complaints about this episode lacking connection or relevance to the overall plot. And that's something I find very hard to emphasize with ... or even strange to see brought up in the first place. When has Nisemonogatari ever been plot-driven, it has always been about bizarre character interactions in a bizarre setting where bizarre things happen, everything else being coincidental.

I'd go so far as to say that plot is nonexistent here in the first place, and what little of it there is occasionally - irrelevant beyond the self contained mini-arc it exists within, serving as a reason for even more bizarre character interactions. Bewildering character interactions and weird chemistry is all the show is about, and plot is simply something that accidentally happens at times as said character interactions demand it. The series depends on it's setting, not plot, to keep doing what it does and as a stage for the characters to shine on. Be it the recurring con-man issue, or something as silly as Araragi spending half an episode wrestling with naked Kanbaru while discussing how much of a pervert she is.

So ... yeah, I can certainly see why one would be displeased with the episode if said particular character interaction dosage wasn't to their liking, or find it unassuming if it didn't arose any particular reaction as is the case for me, but suddenly bringing up plot relevance ? What? When has that ever been relevant (or even a constant present) for Nisemonogatari!

[Hiroi Sekai]

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.

[-Sho-]

Originally Posted by omimon

I see things have finally quiet down after two days of heavy debate.

Anyways you gotta love that incest whether or not it was needed or not.

What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.

Hmm... welcome to 21st century media... i guess?

I means really brilliant shows with good and deep hidden meaning, creativity and explosive idea are no longer welcomed or earns their deserved profits. So we are down to shows with decent storyline (wow factors and such), good directing, interesting character interaction or character-driven plots (moe is classified here). And we can just look into this past few year for: Code Gears, Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi/K-On respectively.

Fan-services is just part of the problem. Anime fans tends to single it out as it's easy to blame on, but none can comes to admit that their preferences of these "masterpieces" shows were part of the problems ( just like how i can't give up on Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi)

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.

Oh wow, you've actually pointed out another thing that bothered me- I thank you. What's with this sudden crap where Koyomi is feeling the hots for Hanekawa and Karen? In Bakemonogatari he said he loves Senjougahara, and I actually praised Nisemonogatari for continuing that to this point, but I guess Koyomi is a shallow, drooling idiot now.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Hmm... welcome to 21st century media... i guess?

I means really brilliant shows with good and deep hidden meaning, creativity and explosive idea are no longer welcomed or earns their deserved profits. So we are down to shows with decent storyline (wow factors and such), good directing, interesting character interaction or character-driven plots (moe is classified here). And we can just look into this past few year for: Code Gears, Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi/K-On respectively.

Fan-services is just part of the problem. Anime fans tends to single it out as it's easy to blame on, but none can comes to admit that their preferences of these "masterpieces" shows were part of the problems ( just like how i can't give up on Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi)

I agree with you. Seriously, check out my MAL. I don't judge stuff harshly and as long as a series does its job in providing proper entertainment, I give it a nice score. The series that you've mentioned are all ones that I very much liked for their own reasons, even with the moe and fanservice attached.

The problem is this "21st Century media standard" you are speaking of. When this becomes the standard, I am not going to enjoy anime as I used to anymore. People hated Neon Genesis Evangelion's original series because of how it ended amongst other things, but I appreciated it in its own way. People rage on K-ON because it's got a ton of moe, but I appreciate it for its creative soundtrack and simplistic charms. Why hate on Shugo Chara because it's "girly"? Sure, it's so sugary sweet that one's teeth might rot whilst watching it, but how about the mentions of friendship, internal struggles and fighting for what's right? And no, I'm not a sappy individual who screams friendship everywhere.

Bottom line is, if something doesn't have a reason to be created aside from the basic appeal of showing breasts to mindless fans or throwing so many sparkles in your face that you don't even know what you're watching, it should be given a good look at. There's an audience out there that actually appreciate it for what it is, and I can respect that. It's just...let's please have a plot of sorts? Multi-dimensional characters, maybe? Throw in a proper soundtrack. Show me you care about what you're making. Personally, this is why "Kill Me Baby" was painful to watch for me. Lots of other people like it, that's fine. I personally just hope it doesn't become a standard that wipes out what I like as well.

P.S. 120+ people currently give this episode a perfect 10/10. I can't even believe my eyes.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.

Okay, okay, I think we need calm down for a second. One single episode is NOT going to ruin anime. The industry isn't going to shit and the world is not ending. This episode was purely for shitz and giggles. Nisio wrote this scene simply because HE enjoyed it. He thought Nise was the end of this series so he went balls off the walls on the crazy stuff.

The whole concept of criticism has always been foreign to me simply because I don't it. When I see a series I don't like I DON'T watch it and I also DON'T go to the respective thread to trash it. If you go to my MAL then you'll see that I vote everything 10/10 because I believe every series has something it does perfectly right and that is enough reason for me to give it a 10. Hate is such a tiresome emotion so you won't ever catch me hating something. (At least not to the degree I have seen on this thread for the last couple of days)

I really want people to just enjoy things rather than hate it and if you really do, just avoid it. Why make a huge speech about what's wrong with something? I believe the secret to happiness is to be tolerant of the things you don't like and drop the pitchforks and torches. (Don't tell this to the oppressed people in the middle east though)

Originally Posted by -Sho-

What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.

I think you misread what I wrote. I'm trying to say that incest is great (in anime) and that it's awesome even if it doesn't contribute to the story at all.

[risingstar3110]

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by omimon

Okay, okay, I think we need calm down for a second. One single episode is NOT going to ruin anime. The industry isn't going to shit and the world is not ending. This episode was purely for shitz and giggles. Nisio wrote this scene simply because HE enjoyed it. He thought Nise was the end of this series so he went balls off the walls on the crazy stuff.

The whole concept of criticism has always been foreign to me simply because I don't it. When I see a series I don't like I DON'T watch it and I also DON'T go to the respective thread to trash it. If you go to my MAL then you'll see that I vote everything 10/10 because I believe every series has something it does perfectly right and that is enough reason for me to give it a 10. Hate is such a tiresome emotion so you won't ever catch me hating something. (At least not to the degree I have seen on this thread for the last couple of days)

I really want people to just enjoy things rather than hate it and if you really do, just avoid it. Why make a huge speech about what's wrong with something? I believe the secret to happiness is to be tolerant of the things you don't like and drop the pitchforks and torches. (Don't tell this to the oppressed people in the middle east though)

As much as your ideology of one episode failing to bring down the industry is quite true, I speak of it as a branching point. An anchoring point. You say the author did it because he wanted to go all out to end it. I disagree. I ask you, why does fanservice exist? If you truly think it's to please the author, I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken. Fanservice exists to please the populous and to give them something to look at. The authors aren't all horny little bastards sitting alone in a basement writing up stories because they're lonely. They're real people. Professionals, who generally know exactly what the majority wants to see. It's a staple reason why debate exists- conflicting fanbases. The author has a choice to follow his own personal thoughts, or to give in to the screaming voices and do what most people might drool over. In the end, the world is a business, and we are but its mindless customers.

Now don't misinterpret that. There are plenty of fantastic authors out there who value what is right and can bring their series to a sensible consensus for the people who follow it. Bottom line is, this episode seriously felt unnecessary. Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening. I'm sorry, but I don't call that good writing. Good writing doesn't just quote/unquote "screw around for the sake of it", especially since it's a continuation. It'd be telling the first Lord of the Rings story, then throwing in magical spells and large-breasted women because a ton of fans wrote in asking for it. Now, I can appreciate that one must have fun while writing, and that in itself is an actual charm of writing. This overexaggerated scenario was seriously unneeded though, I strongly feel.

I can also respect your outlook and how you can give things 10/10 because you're not one for critique. Tell me something though, surely there must be genres of music you dislike? Television series you don't enjoy? Personalities that irritate you? It is important to establish a standard where you can stand in. It is why the concept of debate exists in our world, for without it we'd be blobs of amoeba that are all the same. Some people, like myself, enjoy sophistication and creativity in something I partake in. I don't give 10/10 unless it is absolutely flawless, or so very damn close that I can't give it a 9. I rarely have 10/10s, and you have a lot. That's totally fine. What I find is that there simply is too much in the world. If you spend the time loving everything, you'll never learn to hate. Hate is an ugly word, I agree, but it's a human emotion, and an important one at that. How about I say that I don't hate this episode, but I seriously feel like not watching it again?

Also, I think you might have the wrong perspective on a lot of the users here. Most people don't go into a thread to simply "trash" something. Trolls and flamers are generally well moderated, and I actually don't see a lot of them myself. No, you voice a strongly negative opinion on something because you truly found it to be bad, in your opinion. It's a personal viewpoint. Undeniably, debates and arguments WILL break out with conflicting views. It can't be helped, but it happens. The thing is, people might not show it, but we have something called influential behavioral patterns where debate WILL generally make them at least consider what their opposition is saying. Without even knowing it, some people change their viewpoint because their brain tells them the opposition's claims hold merit. Others are dedicated to their points and that's alright too. What's important is that you have your own opinion and I have mine. Not "agree to disagree", but much rather "agree to a consensus". Nobody is wrong.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

This is a good point. Standard, but good. It goes without saying that an original series will drag in the fanbase, and then the continuation will play on what made the original popular to continue the success. Like I said, it's all a business in the end. However, I think that way of plotting is a step in the wrong direction, quality-wise. Let's say you write up a novel that is insanely popular for portraying a historical war and its casualties on the human psyche. As a plot-pusher, you include a character who has lost his mind from all that has been happening, and is basically a ridiculous threat because he can't control who he attempts to kill. Now, it's a big hit and you need to make a sequel storyline. People like this insane madman much more than the interaction between the other characters. Do you reduce the story so more of this uncontrollable man can be given to the public? Sure, it'll sell like hotcakes, but you ARE trading off something equally precious at the same time.

I hate using this example, but I point one finger at Hayate no Gotoku. First season was a ridiculous comedy with a decent balance on the characters. Then Katsura Hinagiku takes the fanbase by storm and the second season mostly revolves around her. The comedy isn't as good, and we see less and less of the other fun characters the series had to offer. In context, people have been complaining about how short series have become as of late, but I stand firmly by the statement "quality over quantity". AnoHana was only 11 episodes, but I found it to be quite amazing, running through a gambit of emotions, stories and character development in something so short. Toradora is only 26 episodes, but damn, I feel like each character is cemented in stone and is true the entire way through. I'm not picky, I'm just one who wishes to feel like what I'm watching has a good point.

[Caithsith]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

i thought Bakemonogatari was anything but mainstream and IMHO the most polarizing anime i've ever watched. Nise is more mainstream in regards of animation and plot progression.

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening.

Koyomi has always been a pervert. Now we know that much more about Karen too. And to what extent. This episode was an in-your-face eye opener for the more naive (and unspoiled viewers). They didn't compromise, they glorified the moment. The "silly" and "carnivalesque" music in the background enhanced the effect. I refer to A Clockwork Orang when similar classical music plays on the background when Alex and his droogs indulge in some ultra-violence. It seems like it's glorifying violence, and I'm watching the scene with a big grin on my face. What should I think of that? (Rhetorical question)

It was a significant episode as far as characterization goes. It's only "real development" if it's allowed to be, though. It would be a shame if this is left as a "one off" type of thing without any serious resolution. Given the fact that the characters continue to live on in the novel universe, I'm skeptical that everything will be resolved in the Nisemonogatari anime adaptation concerning Koyomi and Karen.

If that happens, the point of the episode will be exactly that: serious incestuous intent. Of course the usual criticism of "boring trope" and "tiring imouto fetish" apply, but I hope people understand why a fan would feel this is an... interesting (if not exciting) thing. Criticisms of pacing also apply, but Shaft went along and did it regardless. For that they do deserve all the flak if things go south later on. And all the praise (at least from fans of this episode) if they don't.

Of course in the age of the internet the hype built up and everyone wanted to glorify this moment and post how much they loved it. So it goes. Critics are perfectly valid to call into question the reaction of the community (use of words like "glorious", "outrageous", "original", "amazing" etc. when we are talking about a sex toy which is not that uncommon [in the real world]). But so it goes in a one massive circlejerk.

[Ceral]

Normally I'd find incest pretty gross, in RL for sure, but that's what's so hilarious about this episode. The way the viewer is walked through the scene through Koyomi's eyes so that they understand his thinking is brilliant. Clearly he himself detests the idea of falling in love with his own sister, yet he falls into a trap, one he set himself, and Karen being cute too sets it up for the viewer to at least be able to sympathize with him a little better. I really don't think pantyshots improve sells or viewership these days (More than just having a cute art-style), I think the best pantyshot is one that is done for comedic effect. I know pantyshots and the like aren't going to lead to anything, because this isn't a hentai, so they need to make it extreme in order to make it funny (And to push the envelope, which is what Shaft does.). The way it is overdone, because he is just brushing her teeth, just screams parody. I've seen hentai, this toothbrushing scene was done for hilarious comedic effect rather than arousal.

So don't worry, I doubt this becomes the norm. I don't know how you guys take this show so seriously. To me, this was just one episode that feels pretty much like a filler episode, that isn't even connected to the story (I can't imagine Koyomi actually falling for Karen or that being a major plot device in the future. Maybe if they get really desparate.) one episode that is a parody of their usual fanservice.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by zarqu

Koyomi has always been a pervert. Now we know that much more about Karen too. This episode was an in-your-face eye opener for the more naive (and unspoiled viewers). They didn't compromise, they glorified the moment. The "silly" and "carnivalesque" music in the background enhanced the effect. I refer to A Clockwork Orang when similar classical music plays on the background when Alex and his drooges indulge in some ultra-violence.

It was a significant episode as far as characterization goes. It's only "real development" if it's allowed to be, though. It would be a shame if this is left as a one off type of thing without any serious resolution. Given the fact that the characters continue to live on in the novel universe, I'm skeptical that everything will be resolved in the Nisemonogatari anime adaptation concerning Koyomi and Karen.

If that happens, the point of the episode will be exactly that: serious incestuous intent. Of course the usual criticism of "boring trope" and "tiring imouto fetish" apply, but I hope people understand why a fan would feel this is an... interesting (if not exciting) thing. Criticisms of pacing also apply, but Shaft went along and did it regardless. For that they do deserve all the flak if things go south later on. And all the praise (at least from fans of this episode) if they don't.

Of course in the age of the internet the hype built up and everyone wanted to glorify this moment and post how much they loved it. So it goes. Critics are perfectly valid to call into question the reaction of the community (use of words like "glorious", "outrageous", "original", "amazing" etc. when we are talking about a sex toy which is not that uncommon [in the real world]). But so it goes in a one massive circlejerk.

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

As for the next episode, I have a feeling everyone's right about this not being the standard. However, that ending seems to jab at me with other possibilities.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

The series wasn't aimed at anyone. The anime takes it's story word for word from the novel (99% then if it's not word for word) and the series was just Nisio playing around.

The series started as short stories which was collected into two volumes because fans for whatever reason liked it. Nisio never planned on this to turn into a series because he was never in "serious" mode. For the people who enjoyed Bake, sorry to break this to you but Nisio wasn't even trying when he wrote it. He has been half-assing it for a looooong time.

Nisio made it SUPER obvious that when he wrote Nise he was writing it for himself.

He tried to end the series multiple times.
End 1: Short stories only
End 2: Bake 1 and 2 only
End 3: Bake and Kizu
End 4: Bake, Kizu and Nise
End 5: Bake, Kizu, Nise, Neko and Kabuki
End 6: Season 1 and Season 2
End 7 and present: Season 1, 2 and Final

I have to disagree on Nise not selling well. Unlike the western fandom I'm pretty sure Japanese people who watch the anime read the novels. People who Shaft are targeting (Japanese fans) all have access to the novels and these fans knew wayyyy in advance what they were getting into. Sales on amazon still shows that each disc is in #1 for at least a week or so.