US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[Anh_Minh]

... Wait, what? I'm not sure what you mean. We've all got laws.

One of those, at least in France, is that we've all got to have insurance along with the car. (To cover damage to other parties if nothing else.) And to do that, we've got a to perform the specific action of paying for it. Is that what you mean?

[GundamFan0083]

Depending on your state and local laws in the US, you may or may not have to have private auto insurance, a safety inspection, and an emissions test.

If you don't have those you don't get your registration plates and you cannot drive on the public roads.

[Vexx]

Just in case anyone is lured by Perry's proclamations of the "Texas Miracle" .... there really is no such thing - its a myth. One might check with people who have *lived* in Texas (I'm a seventh generation Texan who relocated later in life).

Here's an article that explains it pretty succinctly - and the important parts are in the latter half of the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...&smid=fb-share

[cors8]

It will be interesting to see how Perry explains away the shitty education and budget deficit too.

I am guessing he'll blame it on the feds somehow.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Just in case anyone is lured by Perry's proclamations of the "Texas Miracle" .... there really is no such thing - its a myth. One might check with people who have *lived* in Texas (I'm a seventh generation Texan who relocated later in life).

Here's an article that explains it pretty succinctly - and the important parts are in the latter half of the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...&smid=fb-share

That's not surprising Vexx.
Perry is also responsible for one of the worst pharmaceutical debacles in recent history here in the US.

http://echochambers.wordpress.com/20...cine-gardasil/

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

That's not surprising Vexx.
Perry is also responsible for one of the worst pharmaceutical debacles in recent history here in the US.

http://echochambers.wordpress.com/20...cine-gardasil/

Wow, did not know that.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

That's not surprising Vexx.
Perry is also responsible for one of the worst pharmaceutical debacles in recent history here in the US.

http://echochambers.wordpress.com/20...cine-gardasil/

The cost-benefit analysis of Gardasil is pretty strong for girls to get it. The HPV strains that Gardasil protects against are sexually transmitted, and HPV-16 has a 60% per-couple transmission rate. HPV->cervical cancer is a pretty nasty thing, often fatal. However, if we're going to make that mandatory, it would make more sense to make a yearly flu vaccine mandatory - influenza strains kill many more people.

There is very little evidence in the medical data that the vaccine is dangerous.... a person is much more likely to have side effects or death from hundreds of other common problems...like stepping off the curb or falling in the bathroom.
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardasil

OTOH... Merck's lobbying is pretty disgusting. Having *doctors* lobby for it or the health centers recommend it as mandatory would have been more ethical. This is what happens when marketeers are not reviewed for ethical metrics but only sales numbers.

Originally Posted by wiki extract

Medical groups, politicians and parents began rebelling after disclosure of a behind-the-scenes lobbying campaign by Gardasil's maker, Merck & Co., to get state legislatures to require 11- and 12-year-old girls to get the three-dose vaccine as a requirement for school attendance.
Objections from doctors and parents groups were due to the vaccine protecting against a sexually transmitted disease, human papilloma virus, which causes cervical cancer. They cited that vaccines mandated are typically for diseases spread through casual contact, such as measles and mumps.
On February 20, 2007, Merck announced its immediate suspension of this campaign, which had been funded through a third party.[59]
The governor of Texas, Rick Perry, issued an executive order adding Gardasil to the states required vaccination list which was later overturned by the Texas legislature. Perry has also allowed parents to more easily opt-out of the program. Through lobbying efforts, Merck has suggested that governments make vaccination with Gardasil mandatory for school attendance, which has upset some conservative groups and libertarian groups.[49][60][61] Groups such as the Moral Majority have expressed fear that vaccination with Gardasil might give girls a false sense of security regarding sex and lead to promiscuity.[49][61][62]

Of course, that last sentence is yet one more reason to slap the shit out of idiots like the Moral "Majority" and its members...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Depending on your state and local laws in the US, you may or may not have to have private auto insurance, a safety inspection, and an emissions test.

If you don't have those you don't get your registration plates and you cannot drive on the public roads.

Yeah, we've got those in Europe too. Can't say I see a problem with that.

[Keroko]

I too have to ask what's wrong with this. The earlier point Gundamfan made sounded as if the government was blackmailing its people, not that it had simple rules that make traffic safer and healthier.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I too have to ask what's wrong with this. The earlier point Gundamfan made sounded as if the government was blackmailing its people, not that it had simple rules that make traffic safer and healthier.

I'm perplexed as well. It's impossible for a “functional” society with the number of people America has to not have rules and regulations (whether they are minor rules such as car insurance or major rules such as do not kill unless attacked). That being said, even going back to America's foundation, there were still taxes, rules and regulations (the first progressive income tax was established by Abraham Lincoln himself). You could argue that bureaucracy has become too powerful (who hasn't argued this?), but this fanciful notion of "freedom" without simple rules (and I consider at least car insurance and a car inspection to be very simple rules (the emissions test is debatable)) is nothing more than chaos given a kinder title.

[Ithekro]

Most rules are setup because of stupid people doing stupid things and ruining it for the rest of us.

Or the government found yet another way to get money out of something...but usually both at the same time.

[Kyuu]

Wanna know more about Rick Perry? See which are lies, which are truths.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ov-rick-perry/

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Neither did Lenin since communism was never achieved.
The USSR was a socialist country, as China is today.
Again, this requires you to see how they operated verses what they claimed.
Did the USSR use money, engage in trade, and have an economy?
Yes.
That's socialism, not communism.

Look, champ. If you seriously say that Europe of now is comparable to the USSR, then there's really no point in discussing. How are you supposed to debate with someone who insists that the moon is made of green cheese?

Or really?
So if the government orders you to perform a specific action or else you forfeit those entitlements, what are you going to do about it?
I'll tell you...nothing.
You're going to knuckle under and obey.
That is called power.

It's the other way round, naturally. Take Germany. Since everyone is ENTITLED (look up the meaning) to the minimum living standards, it can't be withheld by the government, and people know that. Which is why there's unemployed who'd rather prefer to skip out on exhausting work offered to them (e.g. farm helper to harvest) and stay home instead. They have this freedom, it only means that they won't get anything MORE than the minimum living standards.

No, the real serfdom shows in the US. There, a company boss can simply say "you show up on saturday or I fire you", and that's that. If you can't afford to lose health insurance for you or your family, you are FORCED to show up, and that's what people do (and bosses routinely use that to exploit extra work out of their employees, due to the miserable workplace protection laws in the US).

So, the reality is in fact the exact opposite of what you say. You have much more freedom in "socialist" Germany.

Yeah so, I was disowned at 18 and have had to make my way in the world with no help from anyone (haven't seen or spoken to my parents in 20 years).
I've done quite well considering, which is why I have no tolerance for the welfare state mentality.
Sometimes nothing can help a person, as in the case of your friend.
Life just hands us a bad deal, how we choose to tackle the problems will determine whether we survive it or not.
The power of the will can be very strong.

I do respect that you made your way no matter what - it's admirable. But willpower alone does NOT create a job in the US nowadays, and if it does, it's rarely sufficient to keep yourself afloat. You need education in a non-dying job and luck (or connections). If you lack those... you're screwed.

That's what is at the heart of this election in 2012.
We need a leader and a congress that will end the corruption and cronyism in Washington DC.
No amount of government run anything is going to help the poor if DC is bought and paid for by special interest groups.

Looking forward to this guy, then. Perry?? Romney??? Bachmann???? Or even Palin????? I give Ron Paul props for consistently sticking to his line, but I don't think he's electable.

Of course you disagree, you believe a lie, P.T. Barnum put it best: "there's a sucker born every minute."
Big Oil controls both sides of the "Climate Change" debate and they aim to profit from it.

Which is why Big Oil is drowning Washington with lobby money to prevent any kind of climate deal and to dismantle EPA. Right.

Why? You like your Health Care System that much?

Yes, it's performing a better service for half the money you spend - AND everyone is covered.

If you're super-rich and can afford the premiums, you find most specialists in the US. If you're normally wealthy, most European countries perform better and more services than the average coverage in the US. And if you're one of those 40+ million uninsured... let's not go there.

Seriously. Educate yourself from independent sources. The US healthcare systems is a complete unmitigated disaster. I've watched it in action myself, and I vowed never to visit the US again without an insurance to transfer me back to Germany in case of illness.

Oh GOD no!
Perry is the last asshole we need in the White House.
Give me David Kucinich or Ron Paul over him any day.

Kuchinich?? Wow, now you really shocked me. I can see then why your friends might call you a leftie

I disagree with several of Ron Paul's positions, but at least he's no shill, and he's authentic, so I do respect him.

No, I'm correct.
In the US, Religious and Private schools have the right to teach ID if they so choose.

You were wrong in that you claimed that it wouldn't happen in public schools, which I showed it did. Concerning religious and private schools you were right, but that was uncontested.

You mean the article of how 111 billion US dollars went to European banks to bail their sorry butts out?

I already know you won't accept anything that challenges your world view.

You are aware that most of this money were based loans and CDS's which the American banks OWED to these not-at-all-so-sorry banks? You say that the US should have borrowed money and sold CDS and not owned up to it? Wow, now that's a superpower! And you have the chuptzah to call that a "bailout" of European banks?

If you feel I'm wrong somewhere, feel free to confront me. But RCM is really a ridiculous source.

The next president of the United States is going to have to deal with the possiblity that Europe will be broke due to its entitlement society, and thus in a bad position both financially and militarily.

You and your military. It's hilarious.

But thanks for worrying for us, it's heartwarming. Look at all of Europe together and compare it to the US. We're in a much better shape than you are. If we'd do the same you do and merely print more dollars and borrow till you drop, we'd have no problem at all. Instead we actually do something, like cutting spending AND raising taxes trying to balance our budget. Isn't that exactly what you demand from your politicians?

Ah yes, can't attack the message so attack the messenger.
That's the last bastion of a failed argument.

No, it's a fair assessment of an incompetent hack. Noonan is one more of the coffin nails which Hiatt gathered to ruin the reputation of the once-great Washington Post.

Have you ever heard of a union of European countries called the Eurozone?

Yes, but I actually know what this means.

That makes you all one economically, so the entitlement programs that bankrupts one of your countries effects the rest.

That's not the definition here. If the US bankrupts, it affects the rest of the world economy, too, and they're still no member of the Eurozone.

That is why you get the "one size fits all" treatment, just like we here in the USA get the "one size fits all" from the rest of the world even though we are 50 individual sovereign states, each with their own laws and cultures.

I could answer that the Eurozone and the US are very different (e.g. the Fed and ECB), but it's a waste of time.

[lots of words deleted]

Look. If the US were socialist, then YOU WOULDN'T HAVE PRIVATE PROPERTY AT ALL. Do you even know that much? Communism and dogmatic socialism (which is what you routinely accuse Europe to be) negates private property. You are the country of MINE MINE MINE, not socialist.

[Ithekro]

You two are making me depressed actually.

[DonQuigleone]

I find it disheartening when any Americans think the way Europe is run is something radically different then the United States(and vice-versa). Obviously there are differences, but the differences are very small compared to the similiarities. On both sides of the Atlantic we endeavour towards societies based on Freedom, Fairness, Democracy, Innovation and Prosperity. I think our shared way of doing things is an example to the world, and people across the world envy us, from the South American states founding their own EU style UNASUR to Arab countries taking their first steps towards liberal representative government even to the flood of tourists coming out of Asia.

Obviously we make mistakes(last 5 years prove it...), but I don't want people entering these EU/USA debates with the ideas that we're worlds apart. We're not, and we have very similiar problems, I think the last 5 years proves that too. If we dismiss the way things are done on the other side as "working, but it wouldn't work where I live" we're just falling prey to a close minded attitude. I don't know who at this point has more to learn, but I think we can all acknowledge that none of these problems are unique to any one country. I think America can learn from Europe about managing healthcare, and Europe can probably learn from the US about dealing with minorities.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Um.... here's a couple of links that might illuminate why "fabian socialism" is being used with the same breathy voice that "illluminati" is. Such sources as Forbes as well as some interesting blogs are invoked the term a lot during the 2008 elections and again recently:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/03/oba...103bowyer.html
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worl...articleid=4764

Thanks Vexx, they are _amazing_ reads

Well, now that we all know that Obama, who is regularly bending over backwards to placate his corporatist overlords is actually an evil marxist spreading Fabian socialism around, things become so clear all of a sudden! Seriously, wonders never cease...

I'll have to admit that the only time I ever heard about the Fabian Society before was indirectly since it's an affiliate of the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung in Germany (a foundation close to the Social Democrats). It must be this strange love/hate/poodle/master relationship between the US and UK that causes Americans to look at it.

In reality, the influence of the UK in European politics is close to nil. They're not even members of the Eurozone, and back then, Blair's shaky wishy-washy a-bit-pro-Europe-but-not-too-much course and subsequently Browns' waffling never had a real following in the EU. He'd be picked as posterboy if some country wanted to obstruct something temporarily (then they'd ally themselves with Blair till they got some concessions), but the real decisions were made elsewhere. Now, Cameron quickly reversed his formerly anti-European stance into something neutral, so the UK are in Europe where they always were: On the sidelines.

So don't worry, the evul Fabian Socialists are safely contained.

[DonQuigleone]

The UK never really is able to decide whether it really wants to be in the EU or not. It's an "Island mentality" that's existed since at least the 19th century. Germany and France are more influential, and really at the center of the enterprise, especially given how they were the two main powers of continental Europe in the world wars. The UK is certainly there, but it's always tried to keep some distance.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I find it disheartening when any Americans think the way Europe is run is something radically different then the United States(and vice-versa). Obviously there are differences, but the differences are very small compared to the similiarities. On both sides of the Atlantic we endeavour towards societies based on Freedom, Fairness, Democracy, Innovation and Prosperity. I think our shared way of doing things is an example to the world, and people across the world envy us, from the South American states founding their own EU style UNASUR to Arab countries taking their first steps towards liberal representative government even to the flood of tourists coming out of Asia.

I see where you're coming from, and I would have agreed with you 10 years ago, but I do think that there are certain fundamental differences between Americans and Europeans, which become more and more visible.

In Europe, there's a broad consensus that the government is supposed to care for the less fortunate in our society. Even the most conservative voices in the German parliament would NEVER argue for abolishing universal healthcare or other forms of welfare. In the US, this kind of social consensus doesn't exist. Around half of the population fervently opposes these kind of ideas, even they're on a much lower level than in Europe to start with.

And when I see the other excesses particularly on the American extreme right, it only underlines my feelings of "these are not like us". In fact, they take pride in making this kind of schism perfectly clear, they revel in it, usually combined with this funny American exceptionalism idea.

So I'm sorry guys - if THESE people win the next elections to assume the "leader of the free world" mantle, I can only say that I'll very consciously NOT follow, just like I didn't follow in Iraq and Libya either, and I'll most definitely not follow on Iran.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I see where you're coming from, and I would have agreed with you 10 years ago, but I do think that there are certain fundamental differences between Americans and Europeans, which become more and more visible.

In Europe, there's a broad consensus that the government is supposed to care for the less fortunate in our society. Even the most conservative voices in the German parliament would NEVER argue for abolishing universal healthcare or other forms of welfare. In the US, this kind of social consensus doesn't exist. Around half of the population fervently opposes these kind of ideas, even they're on a much lower level than in Europe to start with.

I do think a reason for this is that those who really could use such help, particularly on the right, have been convinced by their representatives and media sources that what's good for the giant corporations is good for them. That old "trickle down" economics that as far as I can see, has proven itself complete bs in the past 30 years or so. The wealthiest Americans have unsurpassed amounts of money. It does not "trickle down." They simply sit on it.

We need more honest people like Warren Buffet.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

They simply sit on it.

To be fair, they don't sit on it. They invest/short sell it in intangibles like stocks and bonds. Still doesn't trickle down, though.