[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by reiimuuchan

B-but I love the fact the Ushiromiyas have good and bad points.
For example, on the surface Eva is a horribly pushy mother who bosses George around trying to dictate his life and who he marries, she bullies Shannon, and she also bullies Natsuhi. She's prideful and arrogant, and she's also incredibly nasty with it.
But, on the flipside, she is a loving and caring mother who's hard on her son because she wants him to have a successful life, and she spent her childhood abused by her sexist father and big brother who kept telling how useless she was because she's a woman. She's determined, intelligent and very loving to her own family- and if she flies off the handle at Natsuhi, it's deeply rooted in her own insecurity that, because Natsuhi gave birth to Krauss' baby, she has no chance to be a successor to the family even though she spent her whole life aiming for that position.


So yes, a lot of the Ushiromiyas have negative traits that, on the surface, make them look like horrible people- but they (the more well-developed ones, anyway) also have an equal mix of good points; just like real human beings. I think the main Umineko characters (Eva, Natsuhi and Rosa in particular) are very good characters because they're so fleshed out and developed.
Tbh, flat characters that only have good points are dull and bland. I love that these characters have bad points along with the good, it's what makes them interesting.

sorry for the rant... XD

I agree. It's just that the way they interact, and the things they do (there's no good excuse for Rosa beating Maria) make them seem bad. I pretty much judged them as 'hateable' because if I met them in real life, I'd hate them.

And they do have good qualities of course, and these make them good characters. For instance, Rosa is my favorite sibling because she's a complete badass in fantasy scenes, even though she is portrayed as the world's greatest mother.

[Solkiskey]

When I meant that characters sucked, I meant that they'd be pretty much one dimensional and uninteresting. The fact that they're detestable but can still be sympathized with shows that they have an actual personality.

[cronnoponno]

My problem with Bernkafail is that she eventually got more and more cowardly in the story, all she REALLY did was pick on people who were too weak to put up a fight, then when Battler does something that she doesn't expect, she literally cries like a baby, and what does she do? summons bunch of crap to do her fighting for her, tells her big mommy Featherine to beat up the big bad Battowa.


In that regard, I think Lambdadelta was a far superior character, she was a real troll and a bro, she took on Featherine like a boss, knowing she'd lose, she didn't skulk around in mud to make people feel bad, and just so many other things. Lambda would have been a much better villain than Bernkastel in my opinion, I was highly disappointed in Erika as well for similar reasons.


I can't wait to see how Lambda will play in the game, even her sprites stance is far more dignified than all the other characters, she was twice the villain and hero than any of the other heroes and villains were in the meta story, and I hope she is balanced enough to where she'll be taken seriously in gameplay.


That being said, while Erika, in my opinion, was a complete disappointment, that oppositional image she has when placed with Battler is pretty nice, I also think they did her attacks quite well in the game, they feel like they suit her.

[GospelDS]

Originally Posted by reiimuuchan

sorry for the rant... XD

Nothing to apologize for. What you said is exactly what I'm thinking, too.
Being portrayed as bad or even purely evil doesn't necessarily make a character unlikable.
I wouldn't say I absolutely love each and every one of the Ushiromiya family, but they're definitely interesting characters that make you want to know more about them.
And even if portrayed as assholes sometimes, they also get their fair share of scenes that make you sympathize with them.

Originally Posted by SkullClad

Rudolph and Eva for me. Eva was already explained, but Rudolph have a certain "cool factor", which makes easy to symphatize to him.

But, no offenses, the same doesn't apply to Bernkastel. As far as I know, she'd never presented something that can justify her actions and the excuse of "kill boredom" is pretty lame.

Originally Posted by reiimuuchan

Bern's 'excuse' for her cruelty would be that Featherine threw her into a logic error and trapped her there for who knows however many years until she went completely insane.
I think the fact her mind was broken and her trust in Featherine was betrayed does give her a faint excuse for her awful personality.
It's like what Lambda says in ep6. The ony way they can forget about the hell they suffered is to throw other people into that hell. Bernkastel is definitely presented as a villain, and people don't have to sympathize with her given the things she did in Umineko are terrible, but I think she does have some justification given her back story.

Even if she went through hell herself, in my eyes, that still doesn't justify any of her actions later on. That and what cronnoponno said are exactly my problems with Bernkastel... In the end, she just appears to me as a spoiled little brat who needs to grow up and learn that not everything can go her way. Just like Erika.
That's why I'm looking forward to be able to beat her up in the game...

I'm still interested in seeing what her attacks are going to be like, though.
She used a scythe, but Erika already has one, so it would be lame to give her one as well.
And I don't hope they make her like Meredy from Tales of Eternia, even though it would be kind of funny.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

My problem with Bernkafail is that she eventually got more and more cowardly in the story, all she REALLY did was pick on people who were too weak to put up a fight, then when Battler does something that she doesn't expect, she literally cries like a baby, and what does she do? summons bunch of crap to do her fighting for her, tells her big mommy Featherine to beat up the big bad Battowa.


In that regard, I think Lambdadelta was a far superior character, she was a real troll and a bro, she took on Featherine like a boss, knowing she'd lose, she didn't skulk around in mud to make people feel bad, and just so many other things. Lambda would have been a much better villain than Bernkastel in my opinion, I was highly disappointed in Erika as well for similar reasons.


I can't wait to see how Lambda will play in the game, even her sprites stance is far more dignified than all the other characters, she was twice the villain and hero than any of the other heroes and villains were in the meta story, and I hope she is balanced enough to where she'll be taken seriously in gameplay.


That being said, while Erika, in my opinion, was a complete disappointment, that oppositional image she has when placed with Battler is pretty nice, I also think they did her attacks quite well in the game, they feel like they suit her.

Well, they did say that the latest and most likely final character popularity poll (taken after EP8 and shown here) would determine which characters new characters were going to be added to Cross.

Here's how the fighting game's characters rank in the poll, as well as their specific rank, excluding B. Battler and all other Umineko characters (the new, yet-to-be released characters are in bold):

1. Beatrice
2. Battler
3. Lambdadelta
4. Erika Furudo
5. Ange
7. Bernkastel
8. Rosa
9. Will
11. Kanon
12. Eva Beatrice
13. Dlanor
14. Jessica
19. Virgilia
20. Ronove
21. Chiester410
22. Shannon & Lucifer (tie)
26. George

Judging from this list, I guess we can assume that Will is gonna be added first because he's the least popular of the three characters to be added. The more popular the character, the more the developers are gonna troll people by making them wait. So then Bern will probably be added second, and Lambda will come last.

And what exactly do you mean about Erika? Are you saying that she's better viewed as an opponent for Battler than as an individual character? Or are you talking about the sprite she has while facing off against Battler? And what's disappointing about her: her character or her gameplay?

[cronnoponno]

I'm merely complaining about the methods she used as a villain, after all that trashtalk and all that buildup of how she was gonna be Battler's rival and all that, her entire foundation of bullcrap is merely based on her being really secretive and not telling Battler one of her moves when she should have JUST to make him mess up.


I guess to sum up what I think about her as quickly as possible, is that, ''She resorted to complete bullshit as her villainous methods, which barely makes her a memorable villain''

Erika and Bernkastel really need to put on their big girl panties if they're going to take the position of villain.


I guess I'm just attached to the image of stronger villains, if a villain is so weak that they have to deceive the hero in order to win, rather than outright maintain an all powerful position, I can't really consider them a good villain. Beatrice, in the beginning, is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Beatrice shoved clue after clue in Battler's face with enough intelligence to keep it hidden, she always kept a powerful position over him, and didn't make herself out to be complete scum in order to make Battler surrender to her.


But even then, while I do dislike Erika and Bernkastel, Erika is the blue to Battlers red, and she's the only thing that stopped episode 6 from being a soggy lovefest between Battler and Beatrice, and the story was still made to work around Erikas acts and I'm assuming Battler expected her to act the way she did anyway. She's not perfect, but she still has the position of Battler's...rival? Something like that, and it's still a very nice image.



EDIT: On an unrelated note, I gotta do this:

Bernkastel: I used to be a villain, like you, but then I took a fist to the face.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

But even then, while I do dislike Erika and Bernkastel, Erika is the blue to Battlers red, and she's the only thing that stopped episode 6 from being a soggy lovefest between Battler and Beatrice, and the story was still made to work around Erikas acts and I'm assuming Battler expected her to act the way she did anyway. She's not perfect, but she still has the position of Battler's...rival? Something like that, and it's still a very nice image.

Well, with that said, I really do have to say that I liked the final conversation Battler and Erika have together at the end of EP8. Since her redeeming quality seems to be her rivalry with Battler, it makes me happy that two fierce opponents are able to talk to each other with respect in the end.

And in case I'm reading it right, I'm fairly certain that Battler did expect Erika to act how she did in EP6, which includes her trying to sucker him into giving her an unfair advantage that he gave to her anyway, letting himself suffer a humiliating defeat just so he could make a comeback that more than makes up for it. Or did I get the wrong impression?

Anyway, I think this conversation has gotten off the track of an Umineko fighting game...

[User173096]

You complain about Erika when Battler is worse. There's really no good explanation for things go right for him other than the fact he's the main character.

About the fighting game I wonder if errors will occur like the latest patch :/

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Toia

You complain about Erika when Battler is worse. There's really no good explanation for things go right for him other than the fact he's the main character.

About the fighting game I wonder if errors will occur like the latest patch :/

But things don't go right for him until he stops being incompetent.

[User173096]

Competence has nothing to do with golden truth and be able to punch Bern.

[reiimuuchan]

Originally Posted by Toia

Competence has nothing to do with golden truth and be able to punch Bern.

I like Battler for the most part, but I do agree with you here. The sudden golden truth end of ep5 was a little, um... deus ex machina ish? Even though I still think that whole scene was awesome.
But I really loathe Battler in ep8 XD

And, as for the stuff about Bern... I do like Bern's character, but I totally see why some people would dislike her- and the stuff about her being a cowardly villain is interesting, I never really thought of her that way. But it's true. Lambda was a lot cooler when she stood up to Featherine like that~ I loved Lambda in ep8~

although this conversation is kind of moving away from ougon isn't it? I wonder... if that's a bad thing... ...?

[cronnoponno]

Originally Posted by Toia

You complain about Erika when Battler is worse. There's really no good explanation for things go right for him other than the fact he's the main character.

About the fighting game I wonder if errors will occur like the latest patch :/

I don't know what you're trying to say, Battler didn't try to kill Beatrice by making her slip up unfairly, he tried to tackle her riddles, and while he gave off stupid solutions to them, he was trying his best and even at the times he gave up he still had the spirit to continue after a bit of support.

Erika clearly had support from Battler and she outright stabs him in the back when he was the one person who actually gave a damn about her.


On the topic of golden truths and him punching Bernkastel, I believe him being the main character IS the reason he was able to punch Bern, and the reason why Bernkastel couldn't truly fight him, nor could the ''All of the heroes who are at their final form'', it wasn't their tale or story and therefore didn't have the position of main character, kinda like Disgaea when you beat Laharl and he complains that the only reason he loses to you is that he isn't the main character in that Disgaea game, and the gold truth isn't really explained so idk whether that's justified or not.

But Battler was a far better person than Erika. I am fine with Erika trying to be a vilain, I am okay with her being a troll and destroying the game board. My problem was how she did it, it's like shoving your hand down a used toilet to retrieve a soggy hundred dollar bill, as opposed to working for it when the chance to do so is thrust right in front of your face.



Battler:
Tried his best, took Beatrice as an enemy at a serious level, tried to solve her hints even though his solutions weren't very acceptable, stopped trying to use stupid solutions and very rarely gave up, he had support from Beatrice in the form of the two avatars who supported him and eventually reached the truth.


Erika:
Didn't try her best, took the entire game as a joke, tried to force her own conclusions with half-baked solutions to make people feel bad, abused her support, whined when her support didn't hold her hand the entire way, got MORE support from Battler, abused that support for her own gain in a way that is absolutely disgusting, talked shit to Battler and made him feel bad for trying to support her, got EVEN MORE SUPPORT (ep 8) , masochistically sided with Bernkastel again despite the fact she saw clear failure in her in EP 6, and shit talked Dlanor, her best supporter, and the rest of the Ushiromiya family.


I just cannot respect Erika as a villain, I cannot support Bernkastel as a villain either. I might still be okay with Bernkastel though, as it's heavily implied that most of it was just an act on her part, and it shows that there's more to her than normal, as well as how Erika and Battler were able to have a decent talk in EP 8, their showdown in EP 8 was quite entertaining for awhile as well.

[User173096]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

I don't know what you're trying to say, Battler didn't try to kill Beatrice by making her slip up unfairly, he tried to tackle her riddles, and while he gave off stupid solutions to them, he was trying his best and even at the times he gave up he still had the spirit to continue after a bit of support.

Erika clearly had support from Battler and she outright stabs him in the back when he was the one person who actually gave a damn about her.


On the topic of golden truths and him punching Bernkastel, I believe him being the main character IS the reason he was able to punch Bern, and the reason why Bernkastel couldn't truly fight him, nor could the ''All of the heroes who are at their final form'', it wasn't their tale or story and therefore didn't have the position of main character, kinda like Disgaea when you beat Laharl and he complains that the only reason he loses to you is that he isn't the main character in that Disgaea game, and the gold truth isn't really explained so idk whether that's justified or not.

But Battler was a far better person than Erika. I am fine with Erika trying to be a vilain, I am okay with her being a troll and destroying the game board. My problem was how she did it, it's like shoving your hand down a used toilet to retrieve a soggy hundred dollar bill, as opposed to working for it when the chance to do so is thrust right in front of your face.



Battler:
Tried his best, took Beatrice as an enemy at a serious level, tried to solve her hints even though his solutions weren't very acceptable, stopped trying to use stupid solutions and very rarely gave up, he had support from Beatrice in the form of the two avatars who supported him and eventually reached the truth.


Erika:
Didn't try her best, took the entire game as a joke, tried to force her own conclusions with half-baked solutions to make people feel bad, abused her support, whined when her support didn't hold her hand the entire way, got MORE support from Battler, abused that support for her own gain in a way that is absolutely disgusting, talked shit to Battler and made him feel bad for trying to support her, got EVEN MORE SUPPORT (ep 8) , masochistically sided with Bernkastel again despite the fact she saw clear failure in her in EP 6, and shit talked Dlanor, her best supporter, and the rest of the Ushiromiya family.


I just cannot respect Erika as a villain, I cannot support Bernkastel as a villain either. I might still be okay with Bernkastel though, as it's heavily implied that most of it was just an act on her part, and it shows that there's more to her than normal, as well as how Erika and Battler were able to have a decent talk in EP 8, their showdown in EP 8 was quite entertaining for awhile as well.

My complaint is about Battler in chiru. Erika used unfair tricks, but at least she didn't use golden truth and the like. It might have been just a couple of times, but it was decisive for the game. Is it fair Battler being the game master if he used deus ex machina to acquire it?

And I agree that Battler played fair in EP 1-4 and that Erika and Bern could have been better villains, but...I just can't stand Battler winning the game just because he is the main character. It's not about who is "good" and who is "bad". It's whether the game is interesting or not.

Also Erika makes me proud for still being loyal to Bern after EP6

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Toia

My complaint is about Battler in chiru. Erika used unfair tricks, but at least she didn't use golden truth and the like. It might have been just a couple of times, but it was decisive for the game. Is it fair Battler being the game master if he used deus ex machina to acquire it?

Gold truth isn't deus ex machina though. Beatrice had been constructing her mysteries with it from the start, and anyone can use it if they figure out how it works.

[User173096]

But no one was aware of it. It's like they just made up this rule for Battler to win. Golden truth wasn't even mentioned in the previous episodes. Still unfair.

[AuraTwilight]

The Golden Truth is just a name for something people have been aware of since the dawn of fiction itself.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The Golden Truth is just a name for something people have been aware of since the dawn of fiction itself.

Well... but that's like saying that the blue truth has been there since EP2 because Battler has been making hypothesis to fight Beatrice since then. I don't think it's the same thing since the "truths" have rules attached to them that aren't so obvious.

It's not the meaning of the gold truth itself the problem but the fact that it could be legally used in the game that came out of the blue. But to be fair Dlanor's power to "seal" red truths and blue truths is even more of an "asspull". As of now there's still no explanation as to how and why Dlanor could seal the red truth in EP5 and the blue truth in EP6.

At any rates in EP5 it gets even. Dlanor pulls out from nowhere the power to seal the red truth about Kinzo being already dead, and Battler pulls out from nowhere the power to use "magic" as a valid argument in the the logic battle between human side and witch side.

If none of that happened the red truth of Kinzo's death alone would have made Battler win anyway.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well... but that's like saying that the blue truth has been there since EP2 because Battler has been making hypothesis to fight Beatrice since then. I don't think it's the same thing since the "truths" have rules attached to them that aren't so obvious.

It's not the meaning of the gold truth itself the problem but the fact that it could be legally used in the game that came out of the blue. But to be fair Dlanor's power to "seal" red truths and blue truths is even more of an "asspull". As of now there's still no explanation as to how and why Dlanor could seal the red truth in EP5 and the blue truth in EP6.

At any rates in EP5 it gets even. Dlanor pulls out from nowhere the power to seal the red truth about Kinzo being already dead, and Battler pulls out from nowhere the power to use "magic" as a valid argument in the the logic battle between human side and witch side.

If none of that happened the red truth of Kinzo's death alone would have made Battler win anyway.

The part about Dlanor 'sealing the window' or whatever was the one thing that pissed me off most in the series, since it pretty much happens for no in-story reason besides 'I'm Dlanor and I can do what I want'. I can think of it as Ryukishi trying to prevent such an easy explanation for being used early without having to address the elephant in the room (though this really brings attention to it...). I don't even care if it was a bad reason, I just wanted a reason that made some semblance of sense.
I remember the Gold Truth making some sense for me at one point, but then I sort of forgot Perhaps it draws from Ange's 'forced delusions' in EP8?
As in, "since it is something you want to believe strongly in, it becomes your truth". Sort of how Ange was willing to continually deny the certainty of the Red Truth in EP8?
Maybe nobody challenges the Gold Truth because it's like arguing with a fanatic who'll never change his mind

I'm sure there's a more reasonable explanation though, this is just some 1 AM rambling.

[Kealym]

Huh - I got the impression that Gold was simultaneously a sort of :

"Oh come on - I'm the author here, so just shut and accept my explanation on the matter." and
"Oh come on - nobody here can objectively PROVE that, but we all KNOW it's the case."

Well, those are kinda samey, but the first I'd say was purely Meta (basically, Battler's use of gold to confirm Kinzo's objectively-impossible-to-verify corpse, a case where it's stronger than red), and the other is a sort of ... implicit understanding / consensus among the pieces on a game board (mostly extrapolated from Will's comments like "Gold truth locking the lock of illusions", etc, a case where it's weaker than red)

I also base this on Lambda's comment in EP5 that for Battler to use anymore would be "crude", or something to that effect, which seems like she's saying "Yeah, every author can throw around their Word of God once or twice, but don't do it too much, or you risk looking like a hack who can't actually write."

Just my interpretation, as we only have two lines of Gold Truth, anyways.

Of course ... yeah, I agree that Dlanor sealing that window was rather arbitrary. I assume, though, that Ryukishi included it both because Erika's lack of confirming the windows may have gone over several people's heads (my own included, because Cornelia and Gertrude's wordings really sounded like the entire room was sealed), AND so Beato would have a place to grant Erika a "courtesy", for Rule of Cool. /shrug

[Etrien]

I realize I've never really discussed this with anyone, so maybe I'm off base, but I came to the belief that Gold Truth was the individual's "truth". What the individual truly believes, regardless of evidence. Put another way, it's the individual's own interpretation of a situation - but one elevated to the level of personal truth rather than simple opinion. In this way, it parallel's Beatrice's magic to Endlessly reinterpret things, as the Golden Truth's reality is pliable and changes between observers. This is also supported by 34's claim that it is sometimes stronger and sometimes weaker than Red Truth; an individual's truth can be broken by the introduction of new evidence, but there are also individual truths that people hold on to in spite of all contradicting evidence.

So, even if "Battler is dead" is declared in red, "Battler is still alive somewhere" could exist as Ange's personal, Golden, truth.

Hopefully wasn't too redundant. I don't know how similar this line of thought is with the general fanbase's interpretation, so I wanted to be clear.

And in line with all that, I think Battler's use of Gold in EP5 was fully valid. All he was doing was displaying proof that he understood the entirety of Beatrice's gameboard, as was acknowledged by 34. The only thing that really kept Bern and Erika from overturning that was that they didn't yet understand it. So, the fact that Battler reached the actual truth before either of them was a victory over EP5 any which way. He didn't win by using the Gold; he was able to use the Gold because he'd already won.

Edit: Oh, and I also agree with Kealym in that when used as a Game Master (or, rather, anyone constructing a narrative), the Gold (Personal) Truth becomes a case of "I'm the author and I can do what I want."
IE, the terrible, terrible "Because I said so."