Fate/Zero - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I liked this episode better than episode 11, actually. The direction did a world of good for the Team Caster scenes, as I thought they had more impact here than in written form.

Probably due to the stellar voice acting. Caster's seiyuu has been the definitive ensemble darkhorse of the star-studded cast for me, with an absolutely perfect delivery of some of the craziest, most theatrical villainous outbursts in recent memory. And of course, Akira Ishida never fails to impress, putting forth a pretty damn KUURU~ performance as Ryunosuke.

And yes, episode 11 really suffered from those long shots where we had to stare at a character's static back for like 15 seconds. This episode received much better direction. In fact, it still baffles (and annoys) me how the episode that could've easily been the highlight of the season seemingly got pretty much the worst animation team in the entire series thus far. Just compare it to this episode, where we got all these little touches to spice up the conversations, like the light coming in through the broken ceiling in the Caster scene, or the background scenery charmingly changing from day to night in the Rider scene.

[Ringil]

I liked this episode quite a bit. The dialogue was excellent; I especially liked the talk between Rider and Waver. It's a bit unfortunate that the first cour ends on such a big cliffhanger, but that just means the first episode of the second cour will be epic.

[Yuna Amakura]

Originally Posted by biodude711

Having a lot of dialogue allows the creators to have character development and expand the story, which is IMO what a lot of shows out now lack. Character development is important and in order for that to occur you need dialogue. There's really no other way to do it.

I disagree. I believe character development isn't limited only to dialogue. There are other ways to develop a character, dialogue is just one of the possibilities. I don't see it happening here. Someone here already mentioned KnK, and I'd say that, although it being a heavy dialogue series, it still makes use of other subtle ways to develop its characters (mainly Shiki) and it was effective. While F/Z decided to transport most of the dialogues from the LN to an animated media, which is not always the best to do. Character development is important, but pacing is also important. It is not about how many fights we have, but rather the balance between fights and dialogues.

Well, to make things short, for me the pacing was troublesome.

[Archon_Wing]

This was a good episode that really reflected the relationship between Waver and Rider, as well as Caster and Kinnosuke. By establishing their motivations, it really helped lay a backdrop for the inevitable battle.

Still, this split cour thing I'm not very comfortable and while the episode was great in itself, I didn't like having this massive cliffhanger. If it aired next week to continue on, I'd be pretty pumped, but skip a season and my interest will dwindle quite a bit. Still, at least the atmosphere was worked right this episode. Music was spectacular about the end.

7/10 for this episode for being a good development episode, but questionable in its usage in the grand scheme of the story-- feels a little underwhelming. Still, even though it hasn't been catching my attention as much lately, Fate/Zero is still a great watch, and 8/10 for the first half.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Yuna Amakura

I disagree. I believe character development isn't limited only to dialogue. There are other ways to develop a character, dialogue is just one of the possibilities. I don't see it happening here. Someone here already mentioned KnK, and I'd say that, although it being a heavy dialogue series, it still makes use of other subtle ways to develop its characters (mainly Shiki) and it was effective. While F/Z decided to transport most of the dialogues from the LN to an animated media, which is not always the best to do. Character development is important, but pacing is also important. It is not about how many fights we have, but rather the balance between fights and dialogues.

Well, to make things short, for me the pacing was troublesome.

But what can ufotable do when the source material does not have the fight to begin with? They can't just go and create a random fight scene, which is more likely to break the plot and atmosphere. It would upset most of the TYPE-MOON fans as well (aka Japanese fans). This is the best way they can do and I am totally happy that they did it.

You can't just compare Kara no Kyoukai with Fate/Zero. They use different formats to deliver the shows, one is a series of movies and another is a tv series. Heck, even the novels' formats are different. If Kara no Kyoukai is a tv series it would be quite the same to Fate/Zero too.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Probably due to the stellar voice acting. Caster's seiyuu has been the definitive ensemble darkhorse of the star-studded cast for me, with an absolutely perfect delivery of some of the craziest, most theatrical villainous outbursts in recent memory. And of course, Akira Ishida never fails to impress, putting forth a pretty damn KUURU~ performance as Ryunosuke.

And yes, episode 11 really suffered from those long shots where we had to stare at a character's static back for like 15 seconds. This episode received much better direction. In fact, it still baffles (and annoys) me how the episode that could've easily been the highlight of the season seemingly got pretty much the worst animation team in the entire series thus far. Just compare it to this episode, where we got all these little touches to spice up the conversations, like the light coming in through the broken ceiling in the Caster scene, or the background scenery charmingly changing from day to night in the Rider scene.

He does have a talented VA. I'm not particularly a fan of the high pitched tone that he chose for Caster's voice, but it definitely fits that character design. During the rant he had prior to summoning the monster the VA did a really nice job. He sounded legitimately excited and completely nuts.

I have no problem with the episode being dialogue heavy. I think it's well warranted and a main reason that I have kept up with this series (a rare thing nowadays, lol). My main complaint this time around was the pacing. I felt like they stretched for the cliffhanger a bit. It sapped my anticipation and made the final moment kind of dull. The slow lead in to the battle left no room for surprise or any intensity to the atmosphere, so while I'm still left wanting to know what'll happen, I wasn't at the edge of my seat when the episode ended.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But man, there's moments when I want to punch Waver for being such a whiny little punk towards the ultimate bro Rider. So with Waver, I go back and forth between finding him amusing, and wanting to simply slap him.

He comes off as pretty ungrateful. In my opinion he has the coolest and most accomplished historically of the heroes as his partner. If I were paired with Rider I feel like I'd get a testosterone high just being in his company.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sometimes, the best way to do a great cliffhanger moment is to show the next big fight just about to start and then go "To Be Continued...".

True if the cliffhanger are well made, certainly.

Here, I don't see why it is a good cliffhanger. For the novel readers, they might know what the monster is and what kind of ferocity it is capable of. (Don't tell me, I don't want to know yet.) For me, it seems to be just a massive version of the previous tentacle monsters. We know how all those fared in this series: pure canon folder of no significance at all. All this new one has is its size. I don't get anything else, they didn't show me.

So that's your monster. As for the heroes, well, they didn't establish them well enough for us to care. Saber is bland. What does Lancer has beside its handsome face? I'll admit that rider is manly. I doubt saber is going to die, and I hardly care if Lancer dies. If rider dies I just have one less comic relief. Besides, they are 3 on 1 currently, so there is hardly much urgency and suspense.

As for the battle itself, I'd be surprised if caster runs away again. Let's suppose that he dies. But for what purpose? I don't get it. Whatever the outcome is, how does it affect the power balance of the grail war? (Again, I don't want to know.) I rate caster as one of the weakest heroes in the whole thing: not as cool as lancer or saber with their weapons, and more like a bug to rider, archer or berserker. From the info that I have, I can't see anything other than crossing one guy out of the list of six.

So there you have it, a cliffhanger that preludes to a battle, fought by two uninteresting sides, of easily foreseeable outcome but no known or foreseeable significance.

[Proto]

Too much dialogues is bad.

Why so? Many of my favorite series are entirely dialogue driven. E.g. Mouryo no Hako.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

He comes off as pretty ungrateful. In my opinion he has the coolest and most accomplished historically of the heroes as his partner. If I were paired with Rider I feel like I'd get a testosterone high just being in his company.

He's grateful, actually. But he has very low self-esteem issues and is extremely insecure. For instance, look what was he thinking after Rider stood up for him in episode 5 (Novel thoughts):

Spoiler for awww:

As Rider’s Master, Waver had witnessed the fierce battle between the five Servants yesterday night - this is an undeniable fact.

At that moment, for the first time in his life, this youth entered into the battlefield; for the first time, weaving in between life and death.

Trepidation, horror; he had never felt them so strongly before.

However, what was left in his heart at this moment……wasn’t fear-related emotions. Instead, impulses full of delight and excitement surged up in his heart.

Waver did not have any accomplishment yesterday night- every action was decided by Alexander, alone. As a Master he had only stood beside his Servant, witnessing everything from the side. Worse still, he fainted at the climax of the battle, rendering him unable to catch the final result of the fight.

Nevertheless, Waver still felt that it was a very meaningful battle. The things and values he obtained from it, looks like only he understood them.

“…not daring enough to even show up before me, coward; you are not fit to be my opponent at all…”

These words were used to insult Lancer’s Master. Lord El-Melloi, someone Waver hated and feared, was laughed at by Rider as a coward.

But the valor Rider held with pride was merely rash idiocy in Waver’s eyes. If he had been the one who planned the battle strategy, he would let his Servant cross swords in the battlefield, whilst as a Master, he would hide himself behind the curtain to observe the progress of the combat- which is the same tactic as Kayneth. This is what is called as proper battle tactics.

But…

“…the man who is most befitting to be my Master must be a valiant one who charges into the battlefield together with me…”

Of course Waver wasn’t the type of person who can charge into the enemy beside Rider. Hiding beside the bridge, he was actually so terrified that he scrambled into the chariot, wanting to escape immediately. However, this reaction had been mistaken as an act of valor.

Nonetheless, at this time these things needed not to be pursued further.

No matter what his reasons were, Waver could still clearly remember the feeling of Rider’s hand on his shoulder - so broad, so strong.

“Yes. This type of person IS my Master.” Rider had really said that to him.

Compared to Lord El-Melloi- the prodigy, famous lecturer, someone to whom Waver cannot hold a candle at one time, Waver was way superior then.

His value was finally approved- come to think of it, this was the first time someone acknowledged his ability.

Although praises and slanders are but meaningless things, for this youth who had never been praised by anyone before, being praised by someone else was really exhilarating.

That is why Waver was on seventh heaven right now. No matter how he tried, he could not contain his excitement.

Although his Servant did not treat him with the courtesy demanded by a Master and had always called Waver by his first name, yet, no matter how disrespectful this obstinate was, Waver should at least feel grateful towards him now. After all, Rider was the first one to value him.

He's just feeling unfit to be his Master, because he's so badass and he's... Waver.

Also tsundere. "i-it's not as if he likes rider or anything! baka!"

[Forever]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Ryuunosuke's speech at the beginning of the episode was so hilarious. "Are they even human!? BAAAAWWW!"
.

I had to log in to say this. That speech really made me go insane WTF?! I am wondering are they even human to say that....

[dark998]

What an anticlimatic way to close the season. But I guess I will be back for more next Spring as episode 14 looks promising enough.

[Master_Yoma]

Sigh now waiting tell apirl

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

So there you have it, a cliffhanger that preludes to a battle, fought by two uninteresting sides, of easily foreseeable outcome but no known or foreseeable significance.

I think the battle will be more than just "oh caster eliminated, congrats". A series of unexpected events can still occur due to the setup, the most important one being who gets the ks (one extra command seal is a big deal), whether the destruction caused by that monster will bring in third party as well, and also if the spear is retrievable or not.

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

As for the battle itself, I'd be surprised if caster runs away again. Let's suppose that he dies. But for what purpose? I don't get it. Whatever the outcome is, how does it affect the power balance of the grail war? (Again, I don't want to know.) I rate caster as one of the weakest heroes in the whole thing: not as cool as lancer or saber with their weapons, and more like a bug to rider, archer or berserker. From the info that I have, I can't see anything other than crossing one guy out of the list of six.

So there you have it, a cliffhanger that preludes to a battle, fought by two uninteresting sides, of easily foreseeable outcome but no known or foreseeable significance.

You forget that the prize for defeating Caster is getting an extra command spell, which is actually highly sought after with all the masters. Actually Sola-Ui will mention this because the preview before had her voice, but I guess it was cut and will be included in the blu-ray.

So maybe at the last minute there will be a scramble of who will behead Caster first, even Tokiomi doesn't want to let out of the fight (asking Gilgamesh to draw his Ea).

[Rethice]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

In essence yes, but it was much more to do with the pacing and placement of dialogue. Don't get me wrong, I like good dialogue shows like Mushishi, Spice and Wolf, but Fate/Zero just takes its too extreme imo, considering it is about a Holy Grail War and "action" is to be expected imo. Heck, I remember this series being compared to Game of Thrones HBO series earlier, and that had tons of dialogue too, but had good action scenes when it needed to deliver.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

The premise of this story warrants at least some attention to the action.

A comparison to Game of Thrones is in order - that was a story with a similar feel, heavy dialogue, and more about the twists and inner plot. However, it still managed to balance the pacing and action while giving all of the characters a good amount of attention and depth. It is also adapted from a novel, so you can't even blame the source material. While in stories like Spice and Wolf about merchanting and relationships a massively dialogue driven pace is appropriate.

I gave the first cour of F/Z a 7/10, which is a fairly high score by my standards. Only reason I speak down on it is because of my high expectations and the high opinion of the general populace for this one. Everything apart from the narrative failure of pacing was fantastic, but unfortunately that alone is enough to condemn what was supposed to be a fantasy epic for me.

Can really tell Gen doesn't like Saber, at all. She was displayed in such a terrible light so far in this story.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by jeroz

I think the battle will be more than just "oh caster eliminated, congrats". A series of unexpected events can still occur due to the setup, the most important one being who gets the ks (one extra command seal is a big deal), whether the destruction caused by that monster will bring in third party as well, and also if the spear is retrievable or not.

Yes, I missed that part. But still, by the way how the two command spells had been wasted in the series (Kayneth's usage of it was particularly dumb), I am not impressed with the command spell. It is like you get some extra time for a move in chess, but a rook is still a rook, a queen is still a queen.

@blue_sora: I hope you remove your spoiler before it hits more people.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

So there you have it, a cliffhanger that preludes to a battle, fought by two uninteresting sides, of easily foreseeable outcome but no known or foreseeable significance.

Well, think about this.

Mage Association is a organization for the purpose of controlling, concealing, and developing thaumaturgy. You know what will happen if fucking alien outer lovecraftian god appears in the middle of a japanese city?

And Iri was pretty clear, if that Cthulhu reaches the city, nobody will be able to stop it.

Originally Posted by Rethice

A comparison to Game of Thrones is in order - that was a story with a similar feel, heavy dialogue, and more about the twists and inner plot. However, it still managed to balance the pacing and action while giving all of the characters a good amount of attention and depth. It is also adapted from a novel, so you can't even blame the source material. While in stories like Spice and Wolf about merchanting and relationships a massively dialogue driven pace is appropriate.

I still laugh at this Game of Thrones comparison.

IMHO, Fate/Zero first half gave us more action in smaller broadcast time than Games of Thrones (and I loved it). Here we got four full episodes about fighting. And sorry, I don't see fair to compare a series of four short books adaptation that got a break to keep quality with a series of seven books adaptation with 50 min long episodes.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by sento

Well, think about this.

Mage Association is a organization for the purpose of controlling, concealing, and developing thaumaturgy. You know what will happen if fucking alien outer lovecraftian god appears in the middle of a japanese city?

And Iri was pretty clear, if that Cthulhu reaches the city, nobody will be able to stop it.

Well, clearly, bombing a hotel to ground level has not made much impact, so is continuous kidnapping children. This is a story about magicians and grail war. It is not how Japanese society deals with aliens or how the mage association handles its secrecy. Those are less relevant.

I don't need to read the novel to know it is not going to reach it. What if it grabs a few poor guys and eat them? Big deal.

[GDB]

If all you care about is the final outcome, and not the path that it takes to get there, then you really shouldn't be watching a prequel. The final outcome is already known if you watched/read Fate/Stay Night. Enjoy the ride.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Well, clearly, bombing a hotel to ground level has not made much impact, so is continuous kidnapping children. This is a story about magicians and grail war. It is not how Japanese society deals with aliens or how the mage association handles its secrecy. Those are less relevant.

I don't need to read the novel to know it is not going to reach it. What if it grabs a few poor guys and eat them? Big deal.

Because bombing a hotel and kidnapped children is something that can be explained by mundane means. Also, Tokiomi is in charge of the city under the Magic Association name, the whole reason why they decided to hunt Caster was because of this. Is relevant enough.

And I don't swallow that meta-reasoning. You could said that about all fucking fiction then. Why I need to read The Lord of the Rings if it's pretty clear that Sauron will lose? Big deal.