[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Good thing nobody really interprets it that way then. You were the one who suggested it buddy. We just explained how it was possible.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The fact that we can say that Eva died in red at all proves that the Red can refer to fictions, such as people dying in a game.

Aura is suggesting that Eva and Hideyoshi fake death, but you can say in red they were killed because it is a story.

We are discussing how it would not make sense for them to be really dead, and the argument was that they aren't really dead, just faking, and the red can be said because it is all just a story.

If you can use the red like that, it seems you can pretty much arbitrarily say whatever you want.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Aura is suggesting that Eva and Hideyoshi fake death, but you can say in red they were killed because it is a story.

What? He's saying it's only true for that fiction. Obviously if Eva survives to live in 1998 Eva can't be murdered right? You have a reading comprehension problem?

[AuraTwilight]

I'll point out that I don't actually think any Twilights past the First are faked; I'm just pointing out that it's valid to think that that fictional deaths can be stated in red; infact, Shkanon kind of forces that conclusion irregardless.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

What? He's saying it's only true for that fiction. Obviously if Eva survives to live in 1998 Eva can't be murdered right? You have a reading comprehension problem?

I'm only talking about game 1. Why are you bringing up 1998? Maybe this is where you got off-track.

We were discussing the murders (or not murders) of game 1, and the motivations behind them. I don't know where the other games got mixed into this.

Within the context of game 1, it seems like Hideyoshi and Eva are dead, especially considering the red. However, nobody seems to have any motivations to kill them.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I'm only talking about game 1. Why are you bringing up 1998? Maybe this is where you got off-track.

I was referring to something else he said. Plus you brought up an episode 4 red. What was I supposed to think?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That, and there's reds that say Eva is dead. So um...yea, what about this 1998 thing?

We were discussing the murders (or not murders) of game 1, and the motivations behind them. I don't know where the other games got mixed into this.

Within the context of game 1, it seems like Hideyoshi and Eva are dead, especially considering the red. However, nobody seems to have any motivations to kill them.

Well that really depends on what your theory is. But if you want the answer we're given the all encompassing motivation is pretty much Battler's sin.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I'm only talking about game 1. Why are you bringing up 1998? Maybe this is where you got off-track.

We were discussing the murders (or not murders) of game 1, and the motivations behind them. I don't know where the other games got mixed into this.

...

You got them mixed up because you were being skeptical of the red, which isn't introduced until later games. Then you brought up an example of a red used in a later game. And dragged that issue around rather than staying focused on the mystery you took an issue with in the first place (which was already answered by us).

All you.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I was referring to something else he said. Plus you brought up an episode 4 red. What was I supposed to think?

Well that really depends on what your theory is. But if you want the answer we're given the all encompassing motivation is pretty much Battler's sin.

Because the episode 4 red refers to the episode 1 events. I'm just trying to have all the context for the discussion available.

I suppose you can say Yasu kills them, but that seems really weird after having 5 other people fake death.

EDIT: Well, I'm done for tonight, here is a summary of the discussion for those who didn't able to read the whole thing.
It started by questioning how a Yasu-Shkanon theory works for the first twilight of the first game. Kanon is supposedly next to Shannon's corpse, and there are no body double tricks.
Since Battler didn't see Shannon's corpse, it is possible that Hideyoshi was lying to cover up the fact that Shannon's corpse was not really there.
It is unlikely Hideyoshi would lie and continue to lie if they were all really dead (unless he is the mastermind that killed them all), so they are probably all faking death. The current suggestion is that they were all bribed by Yasu to go along with her fake-death game, in order to mess with Battler/get him to remember stuff.

This line of reasoning is acceptable, so we get to the next twilight. Here, Hideyoshi and Eva are killed with stakes in their heads. If they can somehow fake this successfully, then the fake death thing appears to work fine for the rest of the game, except for the red that says "Both were killed by another person." This suggests they are actually dead in this game. The red is substantiated by the fact that it would be pretty hard to fake being dead with a stake embedded in your head. So far we have no reason to suspect the stakes are false blades. They probably weren't used to kill the people (placed after the fact), but that doesn't mean they're collapsing blades.
However, Eva and Hideyoshi being dead here brings up the question of "Who killed them?" Yasu doesn't have any reason to real-kill them, especially if they are going along with the fake-death game. Does this mean one of those who faked death earlier killed them? They probably would have had to kill the rest of the fake-dead people first, then cut the chain and kill these two.
This brings up an interesting question though:
Didn't Kanon (Yasu) claim to cut the chain?
Who is this murderer and what is their motive? Money? It seems odd if they already knew they were getting a lot of money.

[AuraTwilight]

it is unlikely hideyoshi would lie and continue to lie if they were all really dead (unless he is the mastermind that killed them all)

or if he's being fucking threatened.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

or if he's being fucking threatened.

Pretty much this.

It's nothing complicated.

[delita-umw-]

Um, if they're really dead when they're supposed to be fake dead AND Hideyoshi suspects they're really dead, isn't the natural response from Hideyoshi to tell everyone that this plot is underfoot? I'm assuming the deal for money would be under the assumption noone actually gets hurt. The second this gets violated, isn't it game over for Yasu/whoever?

[AuraTwilight]

Dude, you're trying to mix multiple alternate possibilities into a single course of events.

[Mirrored]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'll point out that I don't actually think any Twilights past the First are faked; I'm just pointing out that it's valid to think that that fictional deaths can be stated in red; infact, Shkanon kind of forces that conclusion irregardless.

I agree, but Shkannon may be an exception.

What exactly does it mean to "kill" Shannon, or what exactly does it mean that "Kanon is dead" if they are fictional bodiless constructs? It doesn't really mean that much.

Beatrice's power is "Endless" the ability to kill and resurrect over and over again.

This can be done with Kanon and Shannon to get around all of the red involving them.

But I think when we get situations like "Eva is dead" it means "In this reality, she doesn't make it out of the cat box."

However, the first four games are likely from the message bottles dropped by Yasu. What they contain are Yasu's speculations as to several of the possible game outcomes, but are not actually related to the real of what happened, they only outline Yasu's thoughts as to the possibilities.

[AuraTwilight]

Which only goes to show that we overestimated the red's reliability.

[delita-umw-]

My bad, didn't fully read moogle's response, which led me to think this is what you were saying:

it is unlikely hideyoshi would lie and continue to lie if they were all really dead (unless he is the mastermind that killed them all)

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

or if he's being fucking threatened.

[AuraTwilight]

It's also possible he doesn't realize they're dead, if we go with the fake First Twilight idea.

[Rattan]

One of things I theorized in EP1 T1 is that Hideyoshi saw Shannon's clothes with some particles scattered around. I think that due to the situation they were in, Hideyoshi thought that Shannon was pulverized into minced meat. Hideyoshi never actually described Shannon's corpse so this could be a possibility. And Kanon had to point the ring on her finger so he could see it...

This is assuming though that Hideyoshi is not lying and/or not being manipulated.

[Gar Logan78]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Reading this as Yasu being their Father is actually pretty interesting. So, I was wondering what makes Kanon turn into Shannon in the ep6 closed room. It would have to be based on who Erika is, right? Does this mean Erika is actually George in episode 6? Or is it Jessica, and it breaks Kanon's heart that she's a murderer? Though Erika couldn't really be either of them in episode 5, since they are supposed to be dead.

Wait. Erika is actually another person?

And does Eva always survive and live to 1998, or only in the Third Games Fragment?

[Saorin]

@Moogleking: Did you read what I posted about Will's comment on the first twilight? Which strongly implied that either Shannon's corpse was never there or someone/thing as disguised as her?
If not, nevermind this.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Kyrie and Rudolf speak as if they took care of all the servants. I doubt they'd just kill Gohda and then says "servants are taken care of."

Kyrie said ONCE "bla bla it's a cat box, to the outside world the cousins are playing cards now, the servants are snoring in their beds". Which is all I remember reading about the servants.
Don't know, I just don't want to assume "it's all taken care of" because that's what they would logically do. But the fact that it isn't described in the slightest and no other - killed - servant is ever mentioned by name except Gohda is just leaving me suspicious there.
Let's just agree that we're not agreeing there.

Originally Posted by Gar Logan78

Wait. Erika is actually another person?

It is believed that Erika needs to be someone who has already been introduced in Eps 1-4 because she was the culprit in Ep 6 and her being a completely new character would violate Knox's 1st.

Originally Posted by Gar Logan78

And does Eva always survive and live to 1998, or only in the Third Games Fragment?

There's a theory that there is only one outcome in the end, that of Ange's 1998, and no "different dimensions" as the games we were shown were just possibilities to the solution of the cat box but not actually happening in "some kakera". Which would mean that Games where Eva actually dies cannot be the truth.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Like it? I thought you would need some confirmation of what my intentions were.

I haven't read your post past this line. You've shown absolutely zilch improvement from your last post, and I won't exhaust myself arguing with a troll. If you want to be taken seriously, stop trying to provoke people.

In any case, I'm already quite spent. I'm not going back on any of my points, but let's just be patient and wait a few days for EP8 to release the answer.

[AuraTwilight]

It is believed that Erika needs to be someone who has already been introduced in Eps 1-4 because she was the culprit in Ep 6 and her being a completely new character would violate Knox's 1st.

Since she gave up the Detective's Authority, there might be a fanwank possibility that the Knox rules are no longer being enforced. That's sorta-kinda how we do things on the Golden Gameboard forum.

That, and Erika was "introduced in the early part" of EP6: Before the First Twilight.