Kingdom

[marvelB]

^I still think it might be another arc or two before Xin becomes a general. He's definitely close, but he still needs a little more growing time, methinks.


Anyway, 394 is out, and both Xin and Ouhon begin their second rounds against their respective opponents. Though I still have to wonder how Ouhon will win against Shihaku (who's apparently now known as "Earl Shi", BTW). Like I said in my previous post, he barely survived against the guy during their previous battle. I can only guess Ouhon managed to grasp his weakness this time around....?

[Awrya]

^
The haku in Shihaku denotes his noble title (Earl), still a rather awkward translation from Turnip Farmers.

If Ouhon's plan succeeds, I could see a promotion to General for him.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by marvelB

^I still think it might be another arc or two before Xin becomes a general. He's definitely close, but he still needs a little more growing time, methinks.


Anyway, 394 is out, and both Xin and Ouhon begin their second rounds against their respective opponents. Though I still have to wonder how Ouhon will win against Shihaku (who's apparently now known as "Earl Shi", BTW). Like I said in my previous post, he barely survived against the guy during their previous battle. I can only guess Ouhon managed to grasp his weakness this time around....?

Honestly, Xin shouldn't even be promoted to the rank he does. He's a brilliant soldier, a master of killing, but he isn't really officer material. We know there's two types of generals, the intelligent type and the instinct type. Xin is probably an instinct type. Even so, unlike the Duke, he hasn't really won any battles based upon his own judgement. We know how much of a lousy commander he is when he commanded his unit before Ten came. He's been basically riding upon the achievements of Ten and Kyoukai. I believe Ten and Kyoukai should be the ones promoted to general, not Shin.

[Used Can]

^He really cannot plan for his life, but he's the one who keeps and raises the morale of the group. He IS the leader figure of the team.

Diao and Lei may be great strategists, but they lack charisma and the presence Xin has.

That being said, Xin does have to learn to cool down his head and to plan a bit better, before he becomes a general.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Used Can

^He really cannot plan for his life, but he's the one who keeps and raises the morale of the group. He IS the leader figure of the team.

Diao and Lei may be great strategists, but they lack charisma and the presence Xin has.

That being said, Xin does have to learn to cool down his head and to plan a bit better, before he becomes a general.

That's because they never really tried to take over Xin's mantle. At any rate, they do have charisma, just that we haven't really seen it. You can't really command any formations without a sense of charisma. Kyou Kai and Ten does command different sub-groups of the unit at times.

[marvelB]

^I do agree that Ten and Kyoukai are essentially like the rocks of Xin's unit, but I'm also pretty much with Used Can here in thinking that Xin is essentially the unit's heart and soul. It's just that, as was already brought up a couple of times already, he needs a little more growing to do as a leader before he's fully ready to take up the general's mantle, I think. He can leave all the strategical know-how to the ladies, as far as I'm concerned. He really just needs to learn to be less reckless, is all.....



And besides, if we're gonna question Xin's ability as a leader, then what about enemy generals he's fought against like the current Gaimou or freaking Houken, of all people? I mean, I'm sure their real-life counterparts were much more capable as leaders, but still.....

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

At any rate, they do have charisma, just that we haven't really seen it.

Exactly, but you can come up with with strategies and plans without having charisma.
That's why Diao and Lei are are doing well at their respective positions. Neither of them have shown any charisma or personality trait that would move people, or at least, nowhere at the level Xin does.

Mind you, I'm not saying they're unfit to be commanders, just that they're by no means better suited than Xin to be generals.
They can achieve much more working with someone like Xin, who can move so many with ease, than becoming commanders on their own.

[GreyZone]

Ten is lacking any significant Martial Arts skills, aside from her sleeping darts, which are mostly useless against a bunch of soldiers that are storming at her...

Kyou Kai is capable of having command herself, as she has proven and is still striving for. She is also stronger than Shin with her "breath" technique, when it comes to 1on1 battles, however she considerably lacks in Stamina, something at which Shin excells at. So she may be a bit better at duels than Shin, but may have problems if she has to do many fights in succession. Not to mention that Shin's Charisma by far outshines Kyoukai's.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Kyou Kai is capable of having command herself, as she has proven and is still striving for. She is also stronger than Shin with her "breath" technique, when it comes to 1on1 battles, however she considerably lacks in Stamina, something at which Shin excells at. So she may be a bit better at duels than Shin, but may have problems if she has to do many fights in succession. Not to mention that Shin's Charisma by far outshines Kyoukai's.

Oh yes, if we're talking about battle ability, then Qiang Lei is stronger than Xin. That much is clear.
However, if we go by battle power alone, then we can look at Lü Bu, and see how battle power alone isn't enough to lead and getting things done.
Mind you, I'm not saying either Xin or Lei are anywhere as retarded as Lü Bu, just that, on its own, power alone accomplishes little in grand battles - well, unless you're someone on the level of Pang Nuan.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Ten is lacking any significant Martial Arts skills, aside from her sleeping darts, which are mostly useless against a bunch of soldiers that are storming at her...

Kyou Kai is capable of having command herself, as she has proven and is still striving for. She is also stronger than Shin with her "breath" technique, when it comes to 1on1 battles, however she considerably lacks in Stamina, something at which Shin excells at. So she may be a bit better at duels than Shin, but may have problems if she has to do many fights in succession. Not to mention that Shin's Charisma by far outshines Kyoukai's.

Being a general doesn't mean you have to fight on the front lines yourself.In fact, it's something that's preferably not done at all. This is one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful. Since a general is not expected to fight at the front, he can stay at a vantage point where he can see how the battle progresses and to respond accordingly. A general fighting at the front would NOT be able to respond to changes in circumstances.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Exactly, but you can come up with with strategies and plans without having charisma.
That's why Diao and Lei are are doing well at their respective positions. Neither of them have shown any charisma or personality trait that would move people, or at least, nowhere at the level Xin does.

Mind you, I'm not saying they're unfit to be commanders, just that they're by no means better suited than Xin to be generals.
They can achieve much more working with someone like Xin, who can move so many with ease, than becoming commanders on their own.

Not really. Xin is more fit to be some sort of champion of an army, or even some sort of drill master who trains the troops. Charisma or the ability to boost morale is important, but not the most important quality of a commander.The greatest quality of a commander is his ability to command.Xin simply lacks this ability.If you lacked the ability to command, then you are simply not officer material.As long as your tactics and strategies continue to win battles and wars, the confidence of your troops in you will continue to grow. If you lack the ability to command and continue to lose battles, sooner or latter your troops will grow tired of you and desert you, no matter how great your charisma is.A major part of the reason behind the troops' confidence in Xin is his ability to win battles, which is in fact the achievement of his officers rather than his own.

Originally Posted by marvelB

^I do agree that Ten and Kyoukai are essentially like the rocks of Xin's unit, but I'm also pretty much with Used Can here in thinking that Xin is essentially the unit's heart and soul. It's just that, as was already brought up a couple of times already, he needs a little more growing to do as a leader before he's fully ready to take up the general's mantle, I think. He can leave all the strategical know-how to the ladies, as far as I'm concerned. He really just needs to learn to be less reckless, is all.....



And besides, if we're gonna question Xin's ability as a leader, then what about enemy generals he's fought against like the current Gaimou or freaking Houken, of all people? I mean, I'm sure their real-life counterparts were much more capable as leaders, but still.....

Utterly incompetent. That's all I can say about them. One of the major complaints by Chinese fans was how actual tactical geniuses such as Houken gets portrayed as a simple minded martial artist.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Not really. Xin is more fit to be some sort of champion of an army, or even some sort of drill master who trains the troops. Charisma or the ability to boost morale is important, but not the most important quality of a commander.The greatest quality of a commander is his ability to command.Xin simply lacks this ability.If you lacked the ability to command, then you are simply not officer material.As long as your tactics and strategies continue to win battles and wars, the confidence of your troops in you will continue to grow. If you lack the ability to command and continue to lose battles, sooner or latter your troops will grow tired of you and desert you, no matter how great your charisma is.A major part of the reason behind the troops' confidence in Xin is his ability to win battles, which is in fact the achievement of his officers rather than his own.

I cannot agree with you here.
Xin has been great at commanding his troops. He has shown he can keep his troops in order and highly motivated. His commanding abilities are precisely what has taken them out of dangerous situations, when strategy failed to give them a way out or a key to victory.

Notice that that even with Qiang Lei or He Liao Diao, what keeps the Feixin Unit together and in order is Xin's presence. Even when they were losing battles due to the lack of a strategist (because Xin couldn't come up with good strategies at all), they still stuck around Xin.
Notice that the main reason they stick around him so much isn't merely his ability to win battles (especially after it was proven he sucked at strategy), but his fighting strength and his ability to change the tide of a battle.

On the other hand, you can be the most clever strategist, and still lack a commanding figure. This is especially true when your troops fight other troops that are also strong and that you cannot easily beat through some master plan alone. Someone with a strong presence and the capability of inspiring the troops is required. This is something you've seen several generals do in the manga already (especially good ol' Wang Qi), and which proved crucial for the events in their battle.

That being said, you can be good at both things, like Li Mu or an example closer to Xin, like Wang Ben

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I cannot agree with you here.
Xin has been great at commanding his troops. He has shown he can keep his troops in order and highly motivated. His commanding abilities are precisely what has taken them out of dangerous situations, when strategy failed to give them a way out or a key to victory.

Notice that that even with Qiang Lei or He Liao Diao, what keeps the Feixin Unit together and in order is Xin's presence. Even when they were losing battles due to the lack of a strategist (because Xin couldn't come up with good strategies at all), they still stuck around Xin.
Notice that the main reason they stick around him so much isn't merely his ability to win battles (especially after it was proven he sucked at strategy), but his fighting strength and his ability to change the tide of a battle.

On the other hand, you can be the most clever strategist, and still lack a commanding figure. This is especially true when your troops fight other troops that are also strong and that you cannot easily beat through some master plan alone. Someone with a strong presence and the capability of inspiring the troops is required. This is something you've seen several generals do in the manga already (especially good ol' Wang Qi), and which proved crucial for the events in their battle.

That being said, you can be good at both things, like Li Mu or an example closer to Xin, like Wang Ben

Problem:WHAT COMMANDING ABILITIES? His solution to everything was to charge and kill everything, especially the enemy commander.He's a great warrior, but that's the end of his ability.Important qualities of a commander is the ability to pick right subordinates for the task and the ability to develop plans that can defeat your enemy, whether you are doing so instinctively or intellectually. I guess he does have the ability to pick talented subordinates, but I'm a bit divided on that since he's either assigned talented officers by other commanders to begin with or those talented people just happened to be his friends.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Being a general doesn't mean you have to fight on the front lines yourself.In fact, it's something that's preferably not done at all. This is one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful. Since a general is not expected to fight at the front, he can stay at a vantage point where he can see how the battle progresses and to respond accordingly. A general fighting at the front would NOT be able to respond to changes in circumstances.

in ancient China, being able to fight on the Frontlines is a MUST. There have only been a handful of Generals that stood out in the history of China that couldn't fight on the frontline.

it is why ZhaoYuan/GuanYu/ZhangFei are generals who command the troops directly and ZhugeLiang is a Strategist who devise the strategy and command the generals.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Problem:WHAT COMMANDING ABILITIES? His solution to everything was to charge and kill everything, especially the enemy commander.He's a great warrior, but that's the end of his ability.Important qualities of a commander is the ability to pick right subordinates for the task and the ability to develop plans that can defeat your enemy, whether you are doing so instinctively or intellectually. I guess he does have the ability to pick talented subordinates, but I'm a bit divided on that since he's either assigned talented officers by other commanders to begin with or those talented people just happened to be his friends.

We don't know his exact abilities in that regard right now, because he relies on Ten. My own impression is that his own tactics are mostly very irregular, which is useless in a "normal" battle, but effective in certain situations.

But generally he is at least able to comprehend the plans from Ten now, as it seems, something that would be impossible for the "old Shin".

Though actually I think the fact that his unit was able to hold the Gateway city in the coalition war at the roughest front, the south front, without the direct help of Ten (who was a general Tactician overseeing the whole battle) or Kyou Kai (not available), shows that he is no pushover. And no, you cannot just disregard that as mere "mindless battle" all the time. He had to coordinate his unit's moves well with the militia and also make sure that there was no weak point at the southern wall at any time. And that for DAYS. There is no way you can call him incompetent when taking that into account.

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Being a general doesn't mean you have to fight on the front lines yourself.In fact, it's something that's preferably not done at all. This is one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful. Since a general is not expected to fight at the front, he can stay at a vantage point where he can see how the battle progresses and to respond accordingly. A general fighting at the front would NOT be able to respond to changes in circumstances.

Alexander the Great was even more successful and he was, according to history, fighting in the front row. You think his accomplishments were all due to immense luck that he never had a good strategist as his enemy? I doubt that.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

in ancient China, being able to fight on the Frontlines is a MUST. There have only been a handful of Generals that stood out in the history of China that couldn't fight on the frontline.

it is why ZhaoYuan/GuanYu/ZhangFei are generals who command the troops directly and ZhugeLiang is a Strategist who devise the strategy and command the generals.

You are really into stereotypes. Most Chinese generals don't fight on the front lines. It is recommended that they stay back.You are either reading too much Romance of the Three Kingdoms or playing too much Muso, all of which are works of fiction with meager resemblance to actual history.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

We don't know his exact abilities in that regard right now, because he relies on Ten. My own impression is that his own tactics are mostly very irregular, which is useless in a "normal" battle, but effective in certain situations.

But generally he is at least able to comprehend the plans from Ten now, as it seems, something that would be impossible for the "old Shin".

Though actually I think the fact that his unit was able to hold the Gateway city in the coalition war at the roughest front, the south front, without the direct help of Ten (who was a general Tactician overseeing the whole battle) or Kyou Kai (not available), shows that he is no pushover. And no, you cannot just disregard that as mere "mindless battle" all the time. He had to coordinate his unit's moves well with the militia and also make sure that there was no weak point at the southern wall at any time. And that for DAYS. There is no way you can call him incompetent when taking that into account.



Alexander the Great was even more successful and he was, according to history, fighting in the front row. You think his accomplishments were all due to immense luck that he never had a good strategist as his enemy? I doubt that.

Defending a wall requires no strategical or tactical brilliance. In pre-modern warfare, even an idiot can hold a wall as long as the walls are strong enough,there's enough supplies and the garrison's large enough. As for Alexander, the reason why he wins battles isn't because he's a brilliant fighter, it's because of the way his father organized the army as well as how he positioned and directed his troops on the field of battle(tactics in other words).There's also the fact that he's capable of thinking outside of the box.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Defending a wall requires no strategical or tactical brilliance. In pre-modern warfare, even an idiot can hold a wall as long as the walls are strong enough,there's enough supplies and the garrison's large enough.

Are you saying that they went easy on Shin, then? That Heki is utterly incompetent for "not even being able to hold a wall"?

But let's switch the burden of proof. Ever since that scene at the border, when did Shin, aside from him losing his mind during the Duke Hyou death scene, ever show incompetence? Do you think if Kyoukai or Ten were in his place, would they manage to accomplish the same he did, do it even better, or not manage to do it at all?

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

As for Alexander, the reason why he wins battles isn't because he's a brilliant fighter, it's because of the way his father organized the army as well as how he positioned and directed his troops on the field of battle(tactics in other words).There's also the fact that he's capable of thinking outside of the box.

That wasn't the point. You asserted that "Back row general" >>> "Front row general" is a fact. And I denied that.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Are you saying that they went easy on Shin, then? That Heki is utterly incompetent for "not even being able to hold a wall"?

But let's switch the burden of proof. Ever since that scene at the border, when did Shin, aside from him losing his mind during the Duke Hyou death scene, ever show incompetence? Do you think if Kyoukai or Ten were in his place, would they manage to accomplish the same he did, do it even better, or not manage to do it at all?



That wasn't the point. You asserted that "Back row general" >>> "Front row general" is a fact. And I denied that.

Back row general>>>>>Front row general is a fact. It has greater advantages. The reason why Alexander succeeded, as I've mentioned, is simply because his tactics are brilliant and his army well trained and organized enough to overcome the disadvantages of leading in the front.If there's two Alexanders, with one leading in the front and the other leading in the back, chances are that the one leading in the back will win.

The reason Shin doesn't show any incompetence nowadays is because he's got a group of talented subordinates to back him up.He's a bit like Hindenburg of WWI, who is able to win battles due to the fact that he's got talented individuals such as Ludendorff and Hoffmann,not because he's a particular good commander.Without them, he's completely paralyzed.

And yes, Heki's inability to hold the wall is a moment of blunder for him.But of course, everyone makes mistake.Overall, it is easy to hold a wall. As a Welsh proverb says,"it is easy to be brave behind a castle wall".There's a reason why sieges usually only end with the opposing army starving their enemies to death, it's because it's far easier to defend a wall than to assault it.Even the great Napoleon failed at siege warfare against some no name commander simply because of the difficulties.

[GreyZone]

I know that fiction often overglorifies the power-up caused by a front-line charging leader, but you cannot completely disregard it either. But escpacially in Alexander's case, morale was important, because of that very, very long campaign. Maybe a more puppetmaster-like Alexander would be stronger in a single battle, but would such an Alexander be able to conquer everything until India? Even when he did directly participate in the battle, holding his armies together until India was a very hard task, because many soldiers wanted to go back to their families etc. Do you think a backrow-Alexander would have done any better in such a case?

Aside from that you cannot compare warfare in times where guns existed with warefare where they did not. Obviously in such a case, the general cannot simply get into the front-row and the fights are completely different from swords and bows.

And I am still waiting for a reference in the manga, ever since that border scene, where, aside from Duke Hyou's death, Shin did something that showed him being completely unfit as a Commander.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I know that fiction often overglorifies the power-up caused by a front-line charging leader, but you cannot completely disregard it either. But escpacially in Alexander's case, morale was important, because of that very, very long campaign. Maybe a more puppetmaster-like Alexander would be stronger in a single battle, but would such an Alexander be able to conquer everything until India? Even when he did directly participate in the battle, holding his armies together until India was a very hard task, because many soldiers wanted to go back to their families etc. Do you think a backrow-Alexander would have done any better in such a case?

Aside from that you cannot compare warfare in times where guns existed with warefare where they did not. Obviously in such a case, the general cannot simply get into the front-row and the fights are completely different from swords and bows.

And I am still waiting for a reference in the manga, ever since that border scene, where, aside from Duke Hyou's death, Shin did something that showed him being completely unfit as a Commander.

After Ten got captured, his unit got completely paralysed and even tried to abandon the plan because he simply does not know what to do...all until Kyou Kai showed him the way out of the mess. That's some incompetence.A situation like this generally happens when the actual commander got killed,wounded or captured, not when his deputy got incapacitated.

As for a back row Alexander, he most probably would be able to defeat his enemies better if he sat at the back and commanded from a vantage point.The entire enterprise almost failed a number of times when he charged and got himself badly wounded.There's a difference between fighting at the front and actually boosting morale. There are ways for a commander to boost morale responsibly without fighting in the front. Caesar for example would move around the battlefield with his bodyguards right close to the front but still behind the troops to encourage them without fighting himself.

Interesting enough, a good number of armies that fought against the Romans lost precisely because their leader fought at the front and didn't know what the heck was going on around the battlefield.In contrast, the Romans won precisely because their leader stayed at the back and grasped the full situation.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

You are really into stereotypes. Most Chinese generals don't fight on the front lines. It is recommended that they stay back.You are either reading too much Romance of the Three Kingdoms or playing too much Muso, all of which are works of fiction with meager resemblance to actual history.

there is a difference between General (将官) and the Commander in Chief (元帅) of the army .

The Generals who command the troops directly needs to be able fight on the frontline.

The Commander in Chief (元帅) should stay in the backrow doing the overall command with input form the strategist.