Toradora! - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[thundrakkon]

Wow, I really love this series. It is just so well done. It got a little scary there at the end with that emotional and physical confrontation, but it all seems very realistic. When you hold in your emotions like Minorin has been doing, it is bound to explode at some point. Taiga did so in the Christmas episode, and now Minorin has as well.

Btw, someone asked how many episodes are in this series. It has 25 total.

Originally Posted by fish eric

Minori seems like a hypocrite. She is yelling at Taiga saying let me find my own happiness. But she liked Ryuji and purposely put her own feelings on a shelf so for Taiga. Why should Taiga be the one whom everyone helps and not Minori? Especially since Ryuji liked Minori in the first place. Im sure he still does too. He only put aside his feeling because Minori rejected him and he doesn't want to be hurt any longer.

It is a matter of who needs who more. Minorin might think that Ryuji likes her, but she also thinks that Ryuji likes Taiga, through his actions. As it stands, Taiga NEEDS Ryuji more than Minorin, as was witnessed when Taiga was crying. Yes, it is unfair for Minorin, but unfortunately, life is very unfair most of the time.

I personally like Minorin myself, but I understand the situation. I am pretty sure that if Minorin went along and accepted Ryuji's confession after seeing Taiga cry, people will start screaming "traitor" or backstabbing best friend or something along those lines. She was in a no win situation.

Originally Posted by fish eric

Im really surprised that Ryuji didn't think that Taiga and her Best Friend would talk about her being carried on who's back. For a character that is supposedly smart enough to get scholarships that was pretty stupid.

Hey, educational intelligence does not equal to street smarts, relationship intelligence, or situational intelligence. The most intelligent scientist can oftentimes forget about the "trivial" things like common sense or predictions about what people might do.

Ryuji and Minorin have not had the chance to really talk lately, so it is understandable that he forgot to resolve the situation with her.

Overall, this episode was just fantastic. I can't believe they squeezed so much material into one episode. All the material covered in this episode would take Naruto and Bleach 5-7 episodes to cover and DBZ 20 episodes to cover...

[FireSong]

Hi all!

The drama in here. Anyway, I follow the episode discussions and rarely post, but thought I'd do for this episode.

My thoughts on Minorin - she's actually quite sharp and astute, and she's ably demonstrated that she's probably as good as Ami in terms of thinking and observation, though she covers it up with that genki-ness she displays. As for Ami and Kitamura, we all know they have this capability. Kitamura may not seem like it, but he is student council president after all! This should say a lot about his abilities, not to mention the fact he's in the know of all the things going on with his 2 friends, Taiga and Ryuuji. Ami, I'll leave it to her intuition and observation to tell her what's going on.

When Taiga gave the chocolates with the "thank you" to Kitamura, Minorin figured it all out there while staring at Ryuuji in horror. She exploded and I'm sure Kitamura and Ami - both already in the know of what's happening - instinctively went to block the doors to prevent Taiga from running in the hopes of keeping it together. The fact the both had an underlying understanding when Ami said "I guess this is it" should speak for their insight and their awareness of the situation. I don't think Minorin, Ami and Kitamura planned it beforehand.

The ball's in Ryuuji's court now. I'm pretty sure he'll man up somehow - the 2 of them are so made for each other!

As for Minorin, I really like her as a character and her personal strength. I do hope she eventually comes true to herself instead of drowning herself in work, or she'll end up like their Sensei.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

It is a matter of who needs who more. Minorin might think that Ryuji likes her, but she also thinks that Ryuji likes Taiga, through his actions. As it stands, Taiga NEEDS Ryuji more than Minorin, as was witnessed when Taiga was crying. Yes, it is unfair for Minorin, but unfortunately, life is very unfair most of the time.

I personally like Minorin myself, but I understand the situation. I am pretty sure that if Minorin went along and accepted Ryuji's confession after seeing Taiga cry, people will start screaming "traitor" or backstabbing best friend or something along those lines. She was in a no win situation.

you are right. i see your point. taiga really does need ryuji while minori gets by just fine.

[sikvod00]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

It is a matter of who needs who more. Minorin might think that Ryuji likes her, but she also thinks that Ryuji likes Taiga, through his actions. As it stands, Taiga NEEDS Ryuji more than Minorin, as was witnessed when Taiga was crying. Yes, it is unfair for Minorin, but unfortunately, life is very unfair most of the time.

If Ryuji likes Minorin and she likes him back, as harsh as it seems, it really doesn't matter if Taiga needs him more. That's why unrequited love is so damn painful. Now, this is assuming everyone agrees that needing someone is equivalent to loving them (which I KNOW is not the case for many). Relationships are fundamentally about having mutual feelings for one another. Taiga may need = love Ryuji more than Minorin does, but there's a missing component to that: who Ryuji likes.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I personally like Minorin myself, but I understand the situation. I am pretty sure that if Minorin went along and accepted Ryuji's confession after seeing Taiga cry, people will start screaming "traitor" or backstabbing best friend or something along those lines. She was in a no win situation.

Yes, you'd have some people who would've complained, but it wouldn't have been me. Honestly, such accusations would be unreasonable. I'm just glad that Minorin blurted out how unnecessary it is to bottle up your feelings for someone in order to preserve another person's happiness. But all that still doesn't make her any less of a hypocrite...unless she learned soon after Ryuji's semi-confession that he really liked Taiga instead of her. Before that, it wouldn't have made much sense since she implicitly rejected him only after seeing how much that affected Taiga.

As for Minorin's overall character, I guess I'm glad that they fleshed her out so she's more than just a strange, overly-energetic, airhead. But dammit, the extreme splits in her personality can really seem two-faced and frustrating to watch, especially when you know how she feels. That's why I had to chastise myself for cheering on Ami as she forcefully ripped off Minorin's mask during the ski-trip (but she did go too far).

[Jeshua]

This episode was...

Dunno.

All this discussion about who needs who, and who loves who... Oh my gosh, It's like being inside their (the characters') campus, and watching all the situation unfold by their side...

Damn, that hurts.

Well, thanks to episode 22 we all know that, for Ryuuji, "being with Taiga is the best"; On older chapter discussions people often said that Ryuuji and Taiga's relationship was that of a married couple, but they, like, forgot to go through all the awkward stuff: meeting each other, seeing each other's good and bad points, falling in love, confessing, bla bla bla; on chapter 23, Taiga realises that all this "fail-proof-formula-to-meet-someone-and-then-fall-in-love" is the thing that, maybe, is missing on their current situation:

"I wanted to fall in love normally like that..."
"Why are you using past tense?"
"I told you, it's impossible. I mean, the conditions are already wrong."

(...)

... Well... I really liked how the "supportive cast" tried to force Taiga into realising and confronting her own feelings, but oh damn! WHO ARE THEY TO SAY THAT THE CURRENT RYUUJIxTAIGA RELATIONSHIP IS SOMEWHAT WRONG / BROKEN? ...

So what now?! Another confession? Unnecessary awkward situations? So they start to not feel so confortable / natural on the presence of the other anymore? And hell, then they try to discover mutual physical attraction and things like the urge to kiss each other - or, as it seems more into place, they discover that they NEVER WANTED TO KISS OR MAKE LOVE OR WHATEVER?!

loool, man... lol. Before Minorin's statement to Taiga (about who saved who from the snow), Taiga's "unconfessed" love sounded like
1$%!#%@!3511#$%¨&*()*

Okay, sorry for the random blabbings.
I really hope that this series end up with the epic non-cliche-ness finalle that it deserves.

(EDIT: Damn, now I remembered Zero no Tsukaima's season 1 finalle. *v*mits*)
(EDIT: And now I remembered Pastel's confession scene and the afterchapters... now that was a WIN.)

[Zek]

Originally Posted by fish eric

Minori seems like a hypocrite. She is yelling at Taiga saying let me find my own happiness. But she liked Ryuji and purposely put her own feelings on a shelf so for Taiga. Why should Taiga be the one whom everyone helps and not Minori? Especially since Ryuji liked Minori in the first place. Im sure he still does too. He only put aside his feeling because Minori rejected him and he doesn't want to be hurt any longer.

Well Ryuji/Taiga has been the obvious pairing since the beginning and they're the only ones who didn't see it because they were so busy trying to hook eachother up. This whole situation wouldn't have happened in the first place if they'd been more honest.

[Peanutbutter]

Interesting viewpoint. Kinda agreed that they (Ryuuji, Taiga) seemed to have jump into marriage and forgetting the reason why they got married to each other.

And thus the entire series is saying "Hey, you jumped 10 steps too far. Please go back 9 steps and complete all the things that lead to where you are now."

[Freya]

Agreed. Intteresting episode.

As always I feel so sorry for Ami.


Oh just wondering. Is "suki da yo" I love you or I like you?

[FireSong]

Originally Posted by Peanutbutter003

Interesting viewpoint. Kinda agreed that they (Ryuuji, Taiga) seemed to have jump into marriage and forgetting the reason why they got married to each other.

And thus the entire series is saying "Hey, you jumped 10 steps too far. Please go back 9 steps and complete all the things that lead to where you are now."

My sentiments exactly.. And that makes it so fun to watch all over again! I thought it was sweet when Ryuuji held her hand for a while in trust. Then remembered he wanted to let go of his mom's clinging on to him and try and stand on his own - and then he let Taiga go. It was also quite funny to see Taiga forget about her own self (mismatched slippers, Taiga? Really?) and rush after Ryuuji with a jacket and all, like a good loving wife would.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Freya

Agreed. Intteresting episode.

As always I feel so sorry for Ami.


Oh just wondering. Is "suki da yo" I love you or I like you?

suki translates to "like"

in alot of animes people translate it as "love" that is because say you were in an English speaking country and you wanted to tell a girl "i love you" if translated into Japanese it would be "watashi wa suki da yo" because the Japanese don't use their word for love very freely. Or so my Japanese language teacher told me.


I learned most of this from About.com

here is the link to a pretty interesting article

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Freya

Agreed. Intteresting episode.

As always I feel so sorry for Ami.


Oh just wondering. Is "suki da yo" I love you or I like you?

well there is the verb 'to love' but its used rather sparingly.. its tough to translate exactly.. i wouldnt say suki da translates directly to ' i love you ' but, for all practical purposes, thats what it means

another great episode.. i've enjoyed alot of good shows in this genre, but almost all of them after completion. toradora is one of the few shows thats held my interest so strongly over such a long time. heres to hoping we have a great ending.

[frubam]

Great episode. That look Minorin made at Ryuuji when she called him a liar and the events she did thereafter officially makes her a yandere to me.

[physics223]

Unlike most people, I wasn't too impressed with the episode.

Toradora 23: questions

I love the parts about Ami, but I can't really decode the cryptic statements made by Ami and Minori. Comments are highly appreciated. Thank you.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

bleh.. excessive amounts of Ami made me enjoy the ep, but Ryuuji's thickheadedness pisses me off. I honestly hope that Ryuuji doesn't end up with either Taiga or Minorin. it would serve him right. his level of indecisiveness is ridiculous.

I would agree with you, but after viewing the episode for the 5th time I realized Ryuji wasn't in a very favorable position. He likes Minori, who is trying to push him to Taiga. And he finds out that Taiga likes him, but cannot figure out what she wants.

So what will you do if someone you like demands that you chase after someone else you can't like on the same level?

[gonzo562]

great episode i hope ryuji ends up with no one though

looks like in the early episodes everyone thought taiga and ryuji were going out i wonder how the ending episodes will turn out ;>

[SuperKnuckles]

What do you have when you put five angsty teenagers in a classroom?

A near torture.

Jeebus.

Pretty good drama, but I preferred Ryuuji realizing his helplessness in the first half of the show. Much easier to take down than that near-torture scene of Aisaka. It was also painful to watch because all of them were collusive in lying to eachother and they all deserve a through grilling. It isn't exactly entire on Aisaka's shoulders and that came across to me as a bit unfair.

[Nenkitsune]

I knew that Ryuuji trying to hide the fact he saved Taiga would come back. He only told Kitamura, and no one else.

kind of hard to make a lie like that when it involves a group.

It's sad but Ryuuji's indecisiveness is on par with mine. To the extreme extent of his thickheadedness as well.

I realize this, yet I can't do anything about it (or I don't know how to do anything about it, or I don't know how I should go about taking care of it, etc etc etc)

[-Sho-]

Just watch this episode :

Wow great episode ! We are near the end !
Ahah the part when Ryuji throw Ami's shoe ^^
Taiga in maid outfit was cute
It was unexpected tha Haruta have a girlfriend ^^ and i wonder why but till his first show his voice is kinda weird
But the best scene was when Minorin fiund out that Ryuji lies etc .. omg it was intense ^^ all know that Taiga love Ryuji Minorin scary face lol
Don't run away ! Just keep forward !

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Nenkitsune

I knew that Ryuuji trying to hide the fact he saved Taiga would come back. He only told Kitamura, and no one else.

kind of hard to make a lie like that when it involves a group.

Well beyond that, he couldn't tell Minori to be a part of that lie either. She would've done the same thing she did when she found out. Minori is like this crusader for Taiga's benefits and finding that out would just make her very angry.

This was quite an episode, I must say. It's not hard to believe that it's almost over when you consider how serious the episodes have been getting.

I have to say, that was an interesting way to go about getting Taiga to come to terms with things, if even a bit cruel. But she is stubborn, so I guess in her case it's probably required. In the end this isn't the way I would have preferred seeing Taiga and Ryuuji realize their feelings for each other, but any way is a step forward I suppose. Though it's a bit sad that it did have to end up like this. One would think Taiga would be very willing to receive Ryuuji in the end but she's stubborn about Minori.

In the end I'll feel most sorry for Ami. After all, my thoughts are that Ryuuji changed Ami the most because of her feelings for him. You'd be heartless not to feel sorry for her not getting her chance at real love, which would obviously be hard for her since everybody treats her like a model, rather than a person. Ryuuji fits in to that, "one of the only people that treated her like a real person," category.

Minori I'm not worried about. She's iffy in my book to be frank. I understand where she's coming from, but I've never been her biggest fan. She's a bit too crazy for me to like her much. I'm sure she'll find love eventually. Maybe she can hook up with Kitamura. Lord knows they're both equally insane.

[BetoJR]

All the usual terms being bandied about: indecisiveness, thick-headedness, whatever... people seem to only watch the same shows, no matter how different they are. This is something quite unique utilizing some pretty common themes, but most people only tend to notice the similar stuff, not the different ways they're being handled. Oh, well...

GREAT episode, by the way. 9/10 from me.