Toradora! - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[hai_san]

I can't wait for ep 13 when we will see "oni" Ryu face again.

[Voitan]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What is (still) my current issue with this series?

Spoiler for future novel events:

I just can't see a believable way in which Ryuuji could fall for Taiga.

Nor do I really see a believable way in which Taiga could stop loving Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji instead, even if there is more setup for it.

The way they're currently characterized... them falling for each other doesn't seem logically possible, even if I know it's going to happen in the novels.

What this basically means is that the story is forcing two characters together against how the characters would naturally behave.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

See, Taiga is STILL a horrible horrible bitch to Ryuuji, and will likely never stop being a horrible horrible bitch to him. How could anyone believably fall in love with that? Even Ryuuji, who's like the nicest person EVER.

Also, Ryuuji and Minorin, they way they're characterized, are perfectly compatible. They only aren't BECAUSE THE STORY AND AMI SAY SO.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

Okay, fine, given that he's not exactly the most chipper and energetic of people, maybe they wouldn't get along. Who's to say they might not have more arguments that actually revolve around, say, THEIR ACTUAL PERSONALITY DIFFERENCES than, you know, something involving Taiga.

In that case, the most logical decision would be Ami. He "can't get along" with Minorin, Taiga's a horrible little runt, but Ami supports him. She's nice and kind. She's a good friend, an "equal" as she puts it (Wasn't this what Taiga and Ryuuji were supposed to be originally? OOPS.) and is obviously attracted to him.

Who would you choose, in this situation?

But no. Taiga and Ryuuji have to be together, against all logic. Why? Because the author says so.

BAD. WRITING.

I think that about sums it up, yeah.

Holy smokes! My thoughts exactly (about the pair-ups in the anime)! Still however, I do like the excellent characters, story direction is so-so, but a watchable series none-the-less.

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

You could say he's just embarrassed but I agree with that opinion, it just doesn't seem very romantic and her affection for him so far has been based almost entirely on her possessiveness rather than love. Can you even picture them doing coupley things at this point?

Well, if we were to entertain this guilty pleasure, not yet, because so far it's just stuck in the "distant tease" phase of what looks like an Ami interested in Ryuuji, but what obviously must come up next is a long and akward moment between the two that makes Ryuuji think about it. Then you could start thinking about them doing "couple" things.

But so far, Ami was just the mature big sister in this episode.

[Arsanii]

;w; all I can say is Taiga's father is the worst. I felt so bad for her at the end especially with the expression she had. What a terrible guy!

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I don't think I've ever been so offended by a person's overly one-sided statements before, passing opinion as facts, and then still rating this episode a 9. Make up your bloody mind already.

Bad writing simply because you can't see them ending up as a couple, while totally ignoring the undertones and decreasing intensity of bitchiness of Taiga to suit your prejudices against her. And even if they don't end up as a couple, they can continue with their rival sibling-like relationship, which can't be all that bad.

That's about it, at first I didn't want to waste my time replying to you, but your constantly forceful statements of "BAD WRITING" simply offended me to no end that I couldn't resist upon you saying "BAD WRITING" for the third fucking time.

I wasn't talking about this episode. I was talking about later novel developments.

But hey. I'm totally wrong and I recognize this. That was just my perspective from the novel spoilers I've read.

Wasn't passing opinion off as fact either. Everything in that post was opinion, not fact.

But roan pretty much summed up the books for me, so whatever. Doesn't really matter anymore anyway.

Sorry for causing a stir.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You do not see Ryuuji's thoughts as you do see as you see them in novels, that's probably the problem, like in novels he often thinks about Taga as a physically attractive girl as well, which we do not see much in the anime. But yes he is falling for her. Just like she is.

The problem is that they cannot bring out character thoughts so well into anime as it was done in novels. You would need KyoAni telent for that,and we all know that JC Staff will never be so talented.

Another thing is the relentless pace that I always criticized this series for. I do like the anime, yet the pace of 2 episodes per volume is too high to really bring out the best of such subtile series as Toradora. Due to this pace a lot of subtle things are lost, like making them falling to each other more logical.

Right now I would have to agree that in anime Taga and Ryuuji does not really look like a natural outcome, but there are still important developments to come. If JC Staff screws them up (as they are, sadly, more than capable) then it will be really forcing things.

I do disgree for Minori and Ryuuji look like a great couple. They will have their moments in the future, but they will never look good as a couple. But again, this is very clear in the novels since we can see character thoughts, but in anime we cannot, and the production team is not that talentated to be able to bring that out, so we will see how it goes in the future.

And yeah, so far, specially in anime, it looks like RyuujixAmi would make the best and most natural couple.

Thats the problem that I have with this episode. I understand that its based on the thoughts and perspectives of Ryuuji, and the novels has more development on those situations, it seems that they left out the most important.
And yes it does not develop to my liking, because it seems MISSING important issues from the novel. I do understand its a DRAMA episode, even drama does enhance the story/plot further. These one does not, it just feels leaving out many of the themes, Yet. that is why by leaving out of the themes, it seems disappointed at some aspects of it. THATS WHY I'M TAKING ROAN AND houkoholic, SUGGESTION TO WAIT FOR THE END OF THE ARC. That way I can get the whole jest of it, and understand it better.

JC-Staff did a wonderful job with Toradora! Don't get me wrong. But the problem herein it this episode does not bring many of the main themes on the table. By leaving them out, it is BAD on their part. Baka-Tsuki with their superb translation of the novel, does a wonderful job EXPLAINING those issues and themes, that would be even better if it was address in this episode. Which will further develop the plot, and thus making it more interesting. Only a few parts, were interesting.

Taiga on the other hand had a few interesting interaction but didnt really further the development as based on the novel, and there COULD be more. Once again check Baka-Tsuki translation on the novel. I understand for a 24 mins episode, not all can be address to, but leaving out the most important themes and character development on Taiga is not acceptable.

Ami and Minorin has more character developments, as well as Ryuuji. Many cue points of each character has given more insight based who they are. It seems Ami is is walking the path of "big sister" or onee-san towards Ryuuji.
There is however a contraction on Minorin, she seems the type of person that when there are problems or issues, she will always raise up against any adversities. Yet, by avoid Ryuuji, she is contracting who she is. However, its seems she knows more about the issues of Taiga's father, and the awkwardness of her feelings for Ryuuji. If, she was that type, maybe as a FRIEND, she could have explain better or even tell Ryuuji what are the issues. For herself personally, she would raise above any circumstances. Yet, she just leaves him hanging dry in the wind.

@BetoJR, I understand that Taiga wanted to show her "stuff" to her father. It only natural to do so, to show indirect affection to him. The concern between Ryuuji and Minorin sput, and trying to make get them to resolve the issue, is good. But, in the novel, there was more explanation and development based on those issues. They left lots of insight out. Thats is why it could have gone a DEEPER understanding. Its just my bitching about it thats all. The novel for this episode had more explaination, and they could have "squeeze" it in a bit more in this episode, at least making it more understandable. Instead of leaving it as such. I understand that it cannot be all address to, but leaving certain development is not good. Its still a watchable episode, only if they could have address more information, at least add a bit more from the novel. Maybe at the end of this arc, I will have a better understanding.

[physics223]

@Keitaro

Don't rush it, that's the reason why it's called an arc. There will be resolution by the end of it, don't worry.

[BetoJR]

That would be my advice, as well.

[wistfulloner]

Lets just wait for Ep13 tomorrow, and we can see for ourselves if JCstaff has screwed up the story or not, shall we? No point arguing over speculations.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Arsanii

;w; all I can say is Taiga's father is the worst. I felt so bad for her at the end especially with the expression she had. What a terrible guy!

I had a hunch when he showed him he would not live up to what Ryu was hoping but for Taiga's sake i decided to optimistic with the obvious results. What im worried about now what will this situation do to Taiga mentally. She was opening little by little as the episodes rolled by and even gave her father a shot by trying to forgive him this disappointment will have dire consequences for her relationship with him. In a way i kind of see Taiga and her fathers relationship as being similar to Tomoya and his father from Clannad but to the extreme with obvious differences but still some similarities.

[wistfulloner]

In the beginning part Taiga is telling Ryuji that she is still pretending for his sake, when she says, "this is not enough to forget what he has done". There's a slight contrast, however, when she starts getting worried that she might be all sweaty and doesn't have time to change.

Then later in the episode, she frets over her father not being able to watch her perform.

Does this mean she's feigning to Ryuji that she still hates her father but really doesn't, or did she slowly accept her father throughout the episode?

[Vexx]

The most logical guess is that she *wishes* her father were someone she could show off to and adore her..... but reality is a bit harsh. Life is full of young women looking for someone who echoes a kind of "daddy" they never had. (points to Ryuuji and Taiga)

[Baka Ronin]

The point here is that we do not know what Taiga's father does for a living, he seemed genuine in his wish to make up, but I don't think he has the willpower to follow through with it, just my 2 cents. As for him not showing up for the wrestling show, maybe he was busy busting kneecaps collecting on high interest loans. (though I can't see him as the loan shark type). As for Minori's connection to him, I can see how it would be thought that he did something to her family, but more likely its because he hurt her best friend and did not seem to care that he did.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by physics223

@Keitaro

Don't rush it, that's the reason why it's called an arc. There will be resolution by the end of it, don't worry.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

That would be my advice, as well.

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Lets just wait for Ep13 tomorrow, and we can see for ourselves if JCstaff has screwed up the story or not, shall we? No point arguing over speculations.

@wistfulloner;BetoJR;physics223:
Thanks guys <3
Sorry that I get so passionate about it, I do adore Toradora! anime. Sometimes I get overworked, specially when certain key elements are left out from the nove,l that should have transcended in this episode. But I will wait and see how the final will play.

Originally Posted by Vexx

The most logical guess is that she *wishes* her father were someone she could show off to and adore her..... but reality is a bit harsh. Life is full of young women looking for someone who echoes a kind of "daddy" they never had. (points to Ryuuji and Taiga)

RyuujixTaiga, pointing back at you.
I couldnt have said it better then you. Totally agree with you on this one.

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

The point here is that we do not know what Taiga's father does for a living, he seemed genuine in his wish to make up, but I don't think he has the willpower to follow through with it, just my 2 cents. As for him not showing up for the wrestling show, maybe he was busy busting kneecaps collecting on high interest loans. (though I can't see him as the loan shark type). As for Minori's connection to him, I can see how it would be thought that he did something to her family, but more likely its because he hurt her best friend and did not seem to care that he did.

I dont remember in the first few Novels what Taiga's father did, I dont think it mentioned. Perhaps later on. I think her father is a related to a mob-lifestyle. For some reason he fits that personality. Or maybe... just maybe.... politician. :P

[Baka Ronin]

he doesn't seem to be violent. He strikes me as more the "Snake Oil Salesman" type.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The most logical guess is that she *wishes* her father were someone she could show off to and adore her..... but reality is a bit harsh. Life is full of young women looking for someone who echoes a kind of "daddy" they never had. (points to Ryuuji and Taiga)

I agree children naturally want to make their parents happy. Even though Taiga says she hates her father as a daughter she wants to show off. Those feelings alone show that Taiga does not hate her father as much as she had stated to Ryu. We naturally look for people to spend time with or spouses who display similar traits to our parents even if we do realize it. A daddy's girl will find a man who treats her similary to her father more attractive than one that does not. But yes life cruel we very often do get what we want.

[Baka Ronin]

In the next episode, either Taiga's father has a good excuse for not being there, or Ryuuji is going to be very, very upset with him. I hope he beats him up.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

In the next episode, either Taiga's father has a good excuse for not being there, or Ryuuji is going to be very, very upset with him. I hope he beats him up.

I can safely say:

Absent Taiga's father + Angry preview Ryuji = Exciting Ep13

[Baka Ronin]

I dont watch the previews because it gets me too excited. I'll just angst over it for a week. I hope we get to see Ryuuji enact vengeance in Taiga's name.