"Fansubbed" Forum: Should discussion be limited to fansubbed episodes?

[relentlessflame]

The purpose of this thread and poll is to seek opinions only. In other words, I don't expect anything to change on AnimeSuki forums as a result, no matter the results of the discussion or poll. It's only to solicit opinions on the subject.

As you know, AnimeSuki's popularity is such that it attracts English-speaking anime fans with all sorts of various backgrounds, even those who don't watch English fansubs. Whether watching the raw episodes, Chinese fansubs, or others, these fans often begin discussing episodes long before the English fansubs are released. This often comes in the form of large spoiler posts, brief hints/spoiler images, and/or advertising for one's personal blog where more info can be found. In the case of threads in the Fansub forum (where there's only one thread per show), this often splits the discussion in two -- those who discuss the raws, and those who discuss the same episodes again once the subs are out. This isn't a problem per se, but there seem to be a few other side-effects: an increase in complaints about "slow subs" (i.e. "if you're discussing episode 13, why are the stupid subs only at 5?!"), and a bit of general antagonism towards those who are watching ahead (i.e. "you people and your damn raws..."). I've also seen it mentioned a number of times that some people avoid the threads entirely when discussions get too focused on raws/unsubbed episodes (though exactly how much that happens, I don't know). Are we unwittingly fracturing the community and discussion this board is here to promote?

So, since I'm one of the people who will sometimes post comments before the subs are released based on the raws (and so have been noticing some resentment of it), I'd like to know what the people of AnimeSuki Forums think about it on the whole. Is it annoying? Is it useful? Do you not care one way or the other so long as spoilers are clearly marked?

Again, I'm not suggesting anything necessarily change, or any new rules be made. I don't actually know if there is a good solution, even if a problem were identified here. But, depending on the opinions posted, I may change my own posting habits to reflect (and perhaps others might do the same if they knew how others felt about it).

NOTE: This is not referring to cases where a show is popular enough to get its own forum and by-episode threads. In that case, it should be pretty self-evident that the discussion in that thread will be about that episode, regardless of how you watched it.

NOTE 2: I also realize there are exceptions, such as MFI series, where discussion of fansubs are not permitted, making the question irrelevant.

Edit: This should go without saying, but please also post your reasons why, as applicable.

[Shay]

Been spoiled too many times. I know it is a selfish reason but it is an English speaking forum afterall.

I distinctly remember episodes of AIR and School Rumble being completely ruined for me at times.

Edit: Yes these were popular and both had their own forums but that was the most infuriating part. By the time an episode was subbed the discussion was 2-3 episodes ahead. Pissed me off!

Well anyway. Sorry if I have responded inappropriately*.

[Matt Soulblade]

But this means there should be 2 treads for each series? One for the fansubbed eps and another for the raws?
I think there is no problem as long as all the risky content is in spoiler tags...

[White Manju Bun]

As long as people use spoiler tags I dont care. I watch some anime raw and others I wait til the sub. If an anime is being subbed slower then the raw, I just skip all the raw talk epis and post about the fansubbed. I havent really had a problem with people not using spoilers in the fansubbed threads concerning raw anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Matt Soulblade

But this means there should be 2 treads for each series? One for the fansubbed eps and another for the raws?

Actually, yeah, I'm not sure if there really is a "solution" that'd be practical. I'm just mostly interested in seeing how people feel about it. It's mostly because I've been seeing some posts indicating people are annoyed by it, so I'm curious to see how widespread the opinion is. (Sometimes a complaint is really just one person's complaint, but other times a lot of other people feel the same way but aren't saying anything.)

[Shay]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

I watch some anime raw and others I wait til the sub.

So you speak Japanese? If so then it is easy for you to say "skip all the raw talk" And if you don't speak Japanese, then I say wtf?

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

If an anime is being subbed slower then the raw, I just skip all the raw talk epis and post about the fansubbed.

Yeah, post about the subbed ep for what? The thread has already moved on. And people like me, will not be there to respond to your post because we don't want to risk being spoiled. And if not being spoiled you get people just jumping in on a convo saying something like "lol, just wait and see, you are so wrong" etc…

I know NSW runs the Bleach forum well, but I have to be truthful here. I am scared to enter many a forum. Death Note for one. I made one thread in there and by something like the 3rd page I was distraught with a spoiler. NightWish swiftly dealt with it but nevertheless I was still caught unawares!

Sucks to be afraid to click on threads on an English speaking forum. If you speak Japanese and watch RAWS or whatever, go to a Japanese speaking forum!

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Actually, yeah, I'm not sure if there really is a "solution" that'd be practical. I'm just mostly interested in seeing how people feel about it. It's mostly because I've been seeing some posts indicating people are annoyed by it, so I'm curious to see how widespread the opinion is. (Sometimes a complaint is really just one person's complaint, but other times a lot of other people feel the same way but aren't saying anything.)

Heh. I have complained about this before the forum hack. Even made a few threads IIRC. And I know I'm wrong. If people have watched and undertood a RAW episode then they should not have to sit in silence. they have the right to discuss. However, that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

[Deathkillz]

well i dont really mind tbh ~ but i do keep up to date with the raws as i hate the feeling of being left behind...and also a rewatch with the subs doesnt bother me ~

well normally when i watch a raw i note a summery of the ep as a whole and post it in spoiler tags...i dont know if people actually reads them but for me its just a way to express myself and my feelings towards the ep ~ a lot easier when i intergrate it with the ep summery ~

but for others like kanon which i want to fully enjoy first time i wait for the subs ~ this usually mean me avoiding the entire kanon thread until the subs are released which can be somewat of a pain in the arse but oh well ~ cant really stop people from talking about the raws imo especially when some subbed series are at a snails pace...and the problem with banning the raw talks would cause the whole thread to go into shut down mode as nobody has anything new to talk about ~ which its bad imo...

so i sit on the fence

[Shay]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

and the problem with banning the raw talks would cause the whole thread to go into shut down mode as nobody has anything new to talk about ~ which its bad imo...

Ahh, but we would have new things to talk about. Everything would be new! It's only not new because people are ahead by basically watching what AnimeSuki frowns upon. RAWS.

I live in the UK. I know the episodes of Smallville aren't bran new, but do I care? NO! Because they're new to me. But no one is knocking at my door telling me what Clark is doing ten eps from now. And if they did I would punch them on the nose.

Err, what I'm saying is the chat would not shut down at all. It would continue on a regular basis, as regular as the subs came out. But I'm also saying you're right. Speech cannot be prohibited. As shitty as it sometimes is. Lol

[Vexx]

spoiler tags are your friend... what we should be doing is tarring and feathering people who persistently abuse the etiquette.

[Shay]

Originally Posted by Vexx

spoiler tags are your friend... what we should be doing is tarring and feathering people who persistently abuse the etiquette.

I agree. However, I really don't think the talk of spoilers is the issue at hand. I believe relentlessflame's thread concept is something different. He is sort of asking whether it is ethically correct/polite to talk about unsubbed anime.

What help does a thread three pages long of spoiler tags do? ASuki values say unsubbed anime is a no-no, whether it is soon to be subbed or not.

As he stated, there is no answer, and there is no acquisition. He just wants to know what the general consensus is so he can either tone down his comments or more openly express them. Which, IMO is a noble mannerism.

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Shay

So you speak Japanese? If so then it is easy for you to say "skip all the raw talk" And if you don't speak Japanese, then I say wtf?

I dont speak Japanese but alot of time you can get what's going on based on the epi. I dont watch alot of raw espc if the series is subbed weekly but some series like I said arent subbed fast like Ghost Hunt so I watch the raw to see what is happening.

Originally Posted by Shay

Yeah, post about the subbed ep for what? The thread has already moved on. And people like me, will not be there to respond to your post because we don't want to risk being spoiled. And if not being spoiled you get people just jumping in on a convo saying something like "lol, just wait and see, you are so wrong" etc…

So youre saying that if the thread moves on then the people who sit and wait for the sub shouldnt post? Most people put spoilers around raw epis that havent been subbed yet or wont be subbed for a while. LIke the Death Note forum since its subbed weekly, most things arent covered in spoilers unless they're huge. Forums like La Corda or Irohan normally still use spoiler tags for raw epis but I still post there even if I havent seen the raw

Originally Posted by Shay

Sucks to be afraid to click on threads on an English speaking forum. If you speak Japanese and watch RAWS or whatever, go to a Japanese speaking forum!

Then whats the point of this forum? Just cuz people watch and understand Japanese doesnt mean they shouldnt post about it here. If you dont want to read a spoiler dont click it.

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

well i dont really mind tbh ~ but i do keep up to date with the raws as i hate the feeling of being left behind...and also a rewatch with the subs doesnt bother me

I do the same since sometimes I just have to find out what happens

[Owaranai Destiny]

Two threads seem like a good idea for people who can't wait to vent their anger on viewers who watch and understand RAWs (Gosh, people...That's what spoiler tags are for. You only get spoilt when you click on them).

Personally I have nothing against RAW watchers, so most of my comments on how quickly they managed to get several episodes ahead are made in jest. I trust they know whether they should post something pertaining to the RAW or not; whether they think it will offend most people if they do so or whether the spoilers are made subtle enough. This is a forum to for your own expression of opinions, after all. If you think it's alright to post a spoiler, go ahead. Sometimes it does irk me a little, since I get left behind.

That being said, I feel that there should be a degree to which fansub watchers should get spoilt. Perhaps RAW watchers should simply try to tone down a little on the spoilers if things get a little too nasty from some angry, apathetic users.

[AvatarST]

I voted for option 3. I never watch raws except for counted occassions because my understanding of them is less than ideal, so I usually wait for the fansubs. As long as spoiler tags are used, people are free to discuss whichever episode they want. Moreover, when I do rarely watch those raws myself (though nowadays I'm not watching much anime at all), I want to participate in those discussions, or at least read them.

[the.Merines]

I also voted #3.

Personally, I've only watched two RAW episodes. Yes, I find it annoying when someone doesn't use spoiler tags and part of the story gets ruined for me. Yes, I find it disconcerting when there are a large number (as in about half) of posts on any given page that I can't read because I only watch subbed episodes.

However, I also don't enter the Busou Renkin or D.Gray-Man threads because I only watch episodes up to where I am in the manga, simply because I don't want to ruin the plot. Should there be a separate forum for me because of this, or because I'm several episodes behind on a finished, subbed series? Of course not. Having two threads for every anime would be a waste of time and resources. We shouldn't expect mods to come in and sweep through every RAW topic and move posts to the SUBBED topic whenever a new episode is subbed.

People who don't use spoilers tags should be dealt with accordingly. People who want to complain about lots of spoiler posts aren't having the experience hindered; they just don't want to deal with the annoyance.

edit: I realize my examples aren't exactly the issue here, but the ideas are the same. IMO the forums are fine as they are now, so long as people follow the rules and use common sense.

[Radiosity]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

That's what spoiler tags are for. You only get spoilt when you click on them).

Or when someone posts something outside of a spoiler, which does happen. I rather thnk that's Shay's point, about being afraid to click into a lot of forums just in case they contain unmarked spoilers. Because once you've been spoiled, that's it. Selective forgetfulness would be nice but unfortunately isn't possible.

I generally avoid the fansubs forum altogether now. Why? Because I don't feel like wading through pages of spoilers and raw discussions. Mostly because you never know when the next non-spoilered post will be that will ruin the surprise.

You know, I feel it's called the 'Fansubs' forum for a reason.

[AvatarST]

Unmarked spoilers should be modded then. Repeated unmarked spoilers should be a bannable offense.

[Radiosity]

They are moderated, but it's often too late. Moderators can't be everywhere at once. Though I agree repeat offense should carry a temporary ban, followed by permanent IP ban if they come back and do it again.

[GHDpro]

Raw discussions in fansub threads is a problem that has popped in the past as well (so this thread might get merged, although I'm to lazy to search for the old thread to merge it myself right now). It's not an easy problem to solve. Essentially what's being discussed is the same with fansubs -- raw watchers are just a number of episodes ahead. For this reason it is not a good idea to create separate threads for fansub watchers and raw watchers, IMHO.

The only viable solution that pretty much solves this problem is to create a separate thread for each episode, which is exactly what we do in the dedicated series discussion forums (under "Current" and "Older"). However it's not practical to do this with every single series.

Therefore for every series which only has a thread and not a whole forum dedicated to it, I think that discussions of non-yet-fansubbed episodes should be allowed as long as they're clearly marked as spoilers (even if they hardly spoil any bit of the story), preferbly with episode number (so that you can read the posts once the fansubs catch up).

Catching people who don't use the spoiler tags is a lot of work though, so sometimes offenders are not caught "soon enough". You can help out though using the "report" button if you see a post with a huge spoiler in it that isn't using spoiler tags.

As of vBulletin v3.6 there is an "infraction" system, which allows moderators to give infractions with a certain amount of points. The system is currently set up that if you post two spoilers (without spoiler tags) in a row, you'll be banned for a few days. Excessive repeated spoiler offenders might even find themselves permanently banned. These points do expire btw, but at a very slow rate (only after a year or so).

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Unmarked spoilers should be modded then. Repeated unmarked spoilers should be a bannable offense.

As I mention above, repeated spoilers are a banable offense.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

Therefore for every series which only has a thread and not a whole forum dedicated to it, I think that discussions of non-yet-fansubbed episodes should be allowed as long as they're clearly marked as spoilers (even if they hardly spoil any bit of the story), preferbly with episode number (so that you can read the posts once the fansubs catch up).

Actually, I think this sort of answers my second, related question on the subject. Anything shown in episodes up to and including the most recent fansub released is not a spoiler. Is that correct? In other words, you should use spoiler tags for...

• Any revelations that come from other media (manga, games, novels, etc. -- granted that extended discussion of these should happen in their own forum)
• Any discussion re: episodes that haven't been fansubbed yet

The above has always been my practice. But what about critical/major plot points, even in episodes that have been fansubbed, that could threaten to ruin the whole show for someone else? I guess I'm just thinking that there's still a risk that someone who hasn't caught up on all the fansubs might click on the thread; for example, someone who just wants to get opinion on the show once it's finished. Are unmarked plot spoilers just the risk one takes once a fansubbed episode has been released? (I can just imagine some innocent soul clicking a thread to see if a show's any good, and having "xxx dies at the end" pop up in front of them. )

Anyway, as I said to begin with, my purpose here wasn't necessarily to try to provoke any sort of change at AnimeSuki (and I agree that there isn't a good solution), but rather just to see what current opinions on the subject were (and whether there was a new trend). It seems that there's a fairly wide spread of opinions on the subject, but most seem to agree that, no matter what, using spoiler tags properly is the key (and there was certainly no doubt in my mind about that aspect in the first place).

[jedinat]

The few times I've felt the urge to comment on some happening in a latest fansub episode, I've been driven away by the fact that the episode is old news in the fansub forum... I don't think I've ever even seen the latest fansub being discussed at the time of its release.