[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

Kinzo's standards also become incredibly different, for better or worse, whenever the subject comes to "Beatrice." Theoretically, he could've expected the 19-Year Child to solve the Epitaph DESPITE or BECAUSE OF the disadvantage.

There's also the possibility that Yasu had a legitimate advantage we simply don't know about, because Yasu's backstory is spotty as hell and has a shitload of blind spots in critical areas.

[Will Wright]

So unless Kinzo is such a genius that he can predict himself going insane and Genji working secretly against his alleged trust relationship to cheat the epitaph and ensure Yasu was the first to solve it... well, sorry, I would put that past Kinzo.

This reminds me of Batman R.I.P, where...basically Batman did all of that. The question then becomes, "is Kinzo Batman?"

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by momobunny

My post was towards AuraTwilight's post about watching out for the beings that look like children, not the article on TVTropes. Also if you read my post, you could figure that I was referring to the traits listed and not the general traits regarding this trope, I already knew Hanyuu was on that TVTropes article page and I was in fact pointing that out (This wasn't my first time reading that page). Please watch how you talk to people Mikachiru (or rather "talk at" since my post didn't concern you at all).

Originally Posted by Will Wright

As for Lamdba, she is "Chaotic Neutral" in my book.

Agreed.

Bern is what, neutral evil or chaotic evil?

Battler I would argue is Neutral Good...

Will is Lawful Good, I think...

Dunno about Lion... :<

[musouka]

I don't really understand why this is coming under discussion. The game is clear on why Kinzo put the epitaph out and how he hedged his bets.

1. The mechanism for the epitaph has always been there since Kinzo chose to live and build there.
The reason that seems most likely to me is the the epitaph was ALWAYS supposed to be used to insure that Kinzo could leave everything he'd built to the person of his choice as opposed to going down the traditional route of leaving it to the oldest.
Why would he make the island with that safeguard in mind from the beginning? Well, think about it. In the eyes of the world, he's married to someone and has children with her. Regardless of his feelings in the matter, they have legal standing. However, Kinzo planned on having another family. His true family, on the other side of the island. This family also happened to have no legal standing.
The epitaph was probably always supposed to choose the successor, and that successor was probably always supposed to be a descendant of Beatrice.

2. The reason Kinzo put the epitaph into play was because he had finally figured things out.
Again, the game is really clear on this point and that he expects Genji to make Yasu be the one to figure everything out before anyone else. (In other words, give Yasu the answer) Genji, in perhaps one of the few outright times he's thought of benefit to Yasu (or perhaps he just felt bad for the other kids), decides to make things a true "roulette" and only gives Yasu a hint to put her on equal grounds as everyone else.
But, again, Kinzo was playing to win. If Genji had done as Kinzo required, the other kids wouldn't have been an issue. Likewise, if Genji was prepared to ignore Kinzo and allow Yasu to live her life in ignorance, that's a risk Kinzo was willing to take.
The point of the epitaph was a message to Genji. They talk about it in the study, for crying out loud. Yes, in shaded meaning, but it's still painfully obvious. Genji even points out to Kinzo that he didn't rig the results to Kinzo when Yasu meets Kinzo face to face in the study, with the obvious meaning being he was expected to.

[Renall]

Except he totally did rig the results. You can call it leveling the playing field, but it's a very pointed hint, and this was somewhat before any speculating as to Kinzo's purpose was clear (whereas the servants were speculating sooner).

If the epitaph is that old (well, the mechanism itself), and its purpose that direct, why hold it back for so long? There's a remarkable - and dare I say it, highly implausible - degree of forethought going on there, particularly since Beatrice-2 would have still been alive. Suppose she lives, has a kid, kid is raised or given to Natsuhi. Kinzo can just use his Lion ploy there, designate Krauss's "firstborn" his heir, no fuss. Or he can just announce Beatrice-3 his heir. Why the song and dance? The epitaph riddle seems designed to direct someone to the chapel puzzle to prove whatever it was Kinzo wanted to prove. But Kinzo wouldn't have needed to prove anything but for events which occurred long after the chapel was built.

This mysterious trigger that happens to coincide with the fuzzy and unclear purpose of Kanon's sudden appearance is way too suspicious for the story to be so pat on that. Especially when it's clearly being evasive on the point. What made Kinzo think that Beatrice's descendant might have appeared? Was it Kanon (who suggests he had a pretty close relationship with Kinzo)? If so, isn't that just a total coincidence if we buy into Yasu's own explanation for it? Kinzo suspected Kanon was the hidden heir (perhaps due to sexism) and released the epitaph, great, that'd work if that was why Yasu supposedly created Kanon. Don't sit right with me.

Is it not possible that Genji, believing Kinzo would accept any solver of appropriate conditions (such as apparent age), would encourage Yasu whether he/she is actually this hypothetical descendant of Beatrice or not? Yasu can't prove his/her actual parentage, Genji's motives are inscrutable generally, and Nanjo is a prolific liar. Coincidentally, it's these two who encourage Ghost Kinzo strongest to "leave his wishes" in some form. If the epitaph is actually Kinzo's will, isn't it a remarkable coincidence that Genji holds the key to making anybody he wants the beneficiary of a system he himself convinced Kinzo to establish?

[musouka]

All he did was point out where Kinzo was born. Knowledge that Kinzo's kids had easier access to than Yasu did.

I don't understand why your problem with the epitaph is? As a mechanism, it gives the illusion of fairness that pulling some random stranger in doesn't. (Yes, it's rigged, but it looks fair and Kinzo goes out of his way to make it look fair) The epitaph is the remnant of a plan that died with Kuwadorian-Beato's death. The fact that Kinzo re-purposed it and tacked on a new ending in order to make his goals clear should be proof of that.

I mean, think about this logically.

There is no way Kinzo could have logically thought that Natsuhi or Krauss was infertile (or close to it) when he made them get married. So the idea of slipping in one of his children from his "real" family into his "legal" family wouldn't have been a realistic option at the time. It's only after several years and the birth of Lion does Kinzo have this chance. So rather than the epitaph making less sense than this, it makes more sense. What if Nappi had been able to get pregnant? The entire reason Kinzo even gave her Lion was because he used the excuse of her "failure." Take that away and he has no excuse.

But in that case, he can use the epitaph to make sure that his gold and everything else is left to the children of the woman he loves and make it look fair (thus less likely to be challenged).

[Renall]

Again though, what stops him from just saying so? Suppose Beatrice-2 is still alive in 1990 when Kinzo finally starts to worry he's gonna die of old age. So he reveals her existence, appoints her and her issue as head of the family, and dies. Essentially the same as the Lion concept, but without slipping Beatrice-2's issue into Krauss's family.

What's the problem there? He's the head of the family. He can do what he wants. If he's concerned about legal challenges, it's certainly less likely to stand up in court that his super-secret riddle made whoever solve it his intended heir, especially since there apparently is no documentation of legal significance saying so. Putting an illegitimate child first in line is dodgy, but it's legal.

Some bozo servant with a story about how he/she's a long-lost Ushiromiya who must be accepted as the family head because he/she solved a riddle first is gonna get sued four different ways come October 6. The only reasons anyone accepts it in ep3 or ep5 is because the gold gives leverage for a family issue and the person solving it is a recognized member of the family. Nobody even entertains the notion that Erika has a right to be the family head.

Now you could argue that this servant's accounted for that, and is going to try to get them all to agree, and certainly there's evidence for it. But I still don't believe someone like Eva isn't going to come back and sue the skirt off "Beatrice" unless she made them all sign legally binding contracts.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Again though, what stops him from just saying so? Suppose Beatrice-2 is still alive in 1990 when Kinzo finally starts to worry he's gonna die of old age. So he reveals her existence, appoints her and her issue as head of the family, and dies. Essentially the same as the Lion concept, but without slipping Beatrice-2's issue into Krauss's family.

And then the courts are all "lol sorry kinzo" when all the remaining kids sue the pants off Lion as soon as Kinzo dies. Leaving Lion with no money and a mother that hasn't even gone to school for her entire life. Depending on how Lion was raised, he might be uneducated too!

However, Kinzo saying "I'm opening my inheritance to anyone who solves this riddle" means that the kids have much less of a grounds to complain that they aren't being given their due, since it was framed as a fair contest.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Coincidentally, it's these two who encourage Ghost Kinzo strongest to "leave his wishes" in some form. If the epitaph is actually Kinzo's will, isn't it a remarkable coincidence that Genji holds the key to making anybody he wants the beneficiary of a system he himself convinced Kinzo to establish?

Not really. Wasn't that sort of what Okonogi's theory about Eva was in the first place?
I don't think it's a coincidence. There has to be a reason for people to think this. If there's a way to reason it's possible for Eva it should be possible for anyone else.

[AuraTwilight]

Bern is Chaotic Evil, no contest.

Lion is probably Lawful Good too; generally Neutral Good, but he's very faithful to the family honor to the point of pushing him to lawfulness.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

However, Kinzo saying "I'm opening my inheritance to anyone who solves this riddle" means that the kids have much less of a grounds to complain that they aren't being given their due, since it was framed as a fair contest.

That's true if there's a legal document that says "Yes, it's freaking stupid, but anyone who solves my riddle first and finds my secret gold room is my legal heir." Actually, this has to be done while Kinzo is still alive, legally, but let's ignore that for a second and pretend it's a will. Where is this document in non-Lion 1986? I'd venture to guess it doesn't exist, or Genji would've handed it to Battler and Battler would've stapled it to Krauss's forehead. It's nothing more than an assumption that the solver is the new head, and assumptions will not stand up in court.

Whereas at least if Kinzo says "I designate Lion Ushiromiya my sole and exclusive heir, to inherit all my assets and properties" in a written will, it doesn't matter if Lion is even really his child. At least this is true of estate law that I actually know. Whether it applies in Japan specifically I don't know, but I'm pretty sure word puzzles that lead to secret gold rooms aren't more legally recognized over there than a will to an illegitimate child.

Plus then the gold is public knowledge and nobody has any way to explain how Kinzo got it, and it's no longer just after WWII where people can look the other way about a bunch of unreported assets.

In the non-Lion 1986s, the idea is that everyone will pretend that Kinzo is still alive and fake him appointing the person who solved it head of the family. The only reason people are okay with this is because the gold means fresh assets that can resolve family money problems, so everyone is inclined to hand over the headship if it means becoming solvent (look how reluctant Eva is to give it over to Battler, but she comes around once she realizes she'll get money and Krauss will get screwed). In this scenario, the existence of the gold at all can be covered up, and the notion that the epitaph is in any way involved can too; everyone just says Kinzo came to the conference, pointed at Battler, wham bam thank you ma'am. Two weeks later he wandered off into the woods and hasn't been seen since, isn't that sad?

The highly illegal way isn't actually Kinzo's artifice. I think Yasu at least seems smart enough to realize the need for planning and timing, as he/she isn't inclined to run around going DURP HURP I'M THE HEAD YA'LL. If I had to guess, the ep2 chapel meeting is an example of the plan being worked out with all the adults with their consent. Then everybody but Rosa dies, screwing up the deal. Odds are it wasn't "Beatrice" doing that.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

None of that has anything to do with the fact that Battler means none of those qualifications whatsoever, like I said.

You say it is a FACT that Battler did not meet the qualifications. Go ahead, present the facts.

Originally Posted by Renall

What about the epitaph explicitly advantages the theoretical 19-Year Child in solving it?

It is very true that the child from 19 years ago would have a distinct disadvantage in solving the epitaph and the epitaph doesn't mention that child, but just reread the part where Yasu solves the epitaph. Kinzo wanted the child from 19 years ago to solve the epitaph.

[Renall]

The issue isn't whether the child could solve it, it's whether anyone else could do it first, and I honestly see no reason why nobody else could or would do so first or how Kinzo made sure the right person would do so.

This leads me to believe Kinzo would have accepted the first person to walk through the door, because he has no way to know the difference.

[AuraTwilight]

Whereas at least if Kinzo says "I designate Lion Ushiromiya my sole and exclusive heir, to inherit all my assets and properties" in a written will, it doesn't matter if Lion is even really his child. At least this is true of estate law that I actually know. Whether it applies in Japan specifically I don't know

It does.

You say it is a FACT that Battler did not meet the qualifications. Go ahead, present the facts.

I've explained this to you before and you haven't countered it. The idea that Battler can be both involved in the baby swap and be the man from 19 years ago is incredibly obtuse, retarded, and unfeasible. It requires Battler to go from Kyrie's womb to Natsuhi's care to OVA DA CLIFF to Asumu's arms in less than a day.

The issue isn't whether the child could solve it, it's whether anyone else could do it first, and I honestly see no reason why nobody else could or would do so first or how Kinzo made sure the right person would do so.

This leads me to believe Kinzo would have accepted the first person to walk through the door, because he has no way to know the difference.

Well, yea. He doesn't even know Yasu exists, really. It's his "betting on a miracle" methodology.

[UsagiTenpura]

I think LD will only ever side with whoever's doing the most interesting thing. She's like the witch of interesting plot twist.

I think the "murders" she and Bern took part of aren't what I call murders.
It goes back to an old topic.... can you be a murderer of concept? Lol...

Beatrice (the third) cannot die because she's not "someone" but a personality or an act. You cannot be a personality murderer. Meta-Ange's death is not the cause of her 1998 death, or in other words it's not the cause of her death. Anyway she isn't dead since we see meta Ange after. As for the relation between Bern and gameboard pieces in arc 7, really, even tho she's not the writer of the arc being the gamemaster seems to be in a similar situation. When you play a videogame and kill people in it, or write a story and decide to kill off chars in it, it doesn't make you a murderer.

[AuraTwilight]

I think the "murders" she and Bern took part of aren't what I call murders.
It goes back to an old topic.... can you be a murderer of concept? Lol...

If they're sentient beings, yes. You think their lives don't matter just because they're not part of your species? Racist.

Beatrice (the third) cannot die because she's not "someone" but a personality or an act. You cannot be a personality murderer. Meta-Ange's death is not the cause of her 1998 death, or in other words it's not the cause of her death. Anyway she isn't dead since we see meta Ange after. As for the relation between Bern and gameboard pieces in arc 7, really, even tho she's not the writer of the arc being the gamemaster seems to be in a similar situation. When you play a videogame and kill people in it, or write a story and decide to kill off chars in it, it doesn't make you a murderer.

Beatrice the Third seems to exist just fine as an aspect of Yasu, and she certainly feels emotions and can feel pain. Meta-Ange comes back later, but she still died. Does Shannon's death not matter because she comes back in other arcs? As for Bern and her Gamepieces....if she has the ability to decide if thinking, sentient beings lives or dies, and she causes them to die even though she could have chosen differently, she is a murderer.

[UsagiTenpura]

They're not part of ANY species.
They don't have organs, they don't have life signs and they don't have actually a life to lose in the first place.

[AuraTwilight]

What is a life? If they're sentient, conscious entities, and they stop existing, how is that not the snuffing of a life?

But then, with your interpretation, there's nothing Bern and Lambda can do to BE murderers, because "lol how can something with no organs or life signs or whatever be a murderer?"

And then that leads to justifying Beatrice by saying witches can't murder because they're not human. Sorry, but that's pretty shoddy reasoning. If we're going to say it's not murder because the victims aren't homo sapien, despite being mentally human in every appreciable respect, then you're basically saying it's impossible for Bern and Lambda to ever be responsible for anything they do from the get-go.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What is a life? If they're sentient, conscious entities, and they stop existing, how is that not the snuffing of a life?

But then, with your interpretation, there's nothing Bern and Lambda can do to BE murderers, because "lol how can something with no organs or life signs or whatever be a murderer?"

And then that leads to justifying Beatrice by saying witches can't murder because they're not human. Sorry, but that's pretty shoddy reasoning. If we're going to say it's not murder because the victims aren't homo sapien, despite being mentally human in every appreciable respect, then you're basically saying it's impossible for Bern and Lambda to ever be responsible for anything they do from the get-go.

Would explain their mindset, actually.

Which, funnily enough, when taken to its logical conclusion really is the route of the sociopath.

[AuraTwilight]

Which leads right back to what I said earlier. I win, boosh.