Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe

I just stopped becuase i got sick of this arguement and i have better things to do ill just let someone else take over when they can. Still

Unrelated to the argument:
Neji vs Itachi - Winner Itachi
Neji vs Sauske - though Neji would win, Sauske aint got the skillz yet to take him down in my own beliefs
Hiashi vs Itachi - Itachi would probably win

Sharingans Rule to Itachi's end but in Sauskes current state no.
Byakugans have their fair share of advantages as well
The fact is Sharingans and Byakugans i agree are tools wether or not the users kno how to use them is up to them.
We could all scream about how great Sharingans and Byakugans are but it all comes down to personal belief and interpretations and opinions.
Byakugan Fans can come tell anything they want and it still wont decide vice versa for sharingans so no one wins.
But IMHO i believe Sharingans are better. :fingers: :fingers:

Good to see you gave up on your argument because it was pointless

I agree that Itachi would own Neji, I would hope so as well, seeing as Itachi is a high level Jounin and Neji is just a Gennin, it would be kind of sad.

I agree Neji would Own Sasuke as well.

Most likeley Itachi can go with Hiashi, but I won't give judgement myself until I see Hiashi in an actual fight, not a 3 second Kaiten spin.

[F!reStr!fe]

Originally Posted by Ke0

Good to see you gave up on your argument because it was pointless

Im glad im not the one who started the pointless argument

[Bane]

Before we start arguing in circles I'd like to point out that many of the arguements I made were against assumptions made by a Sharingan supporter about Sasuke being more powerful then Neji and an heir to the Uchiha blood being more powerful then an heir to the Hyuuga blood. I know we are talking about the bloodline and not the user, I was simply making those points to disprove the above two points.

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Nevertheless, whether or not you state they are facts, if you build other arguments upon them, then they in turn have no basis. You are using your opinions as facts. You can't say the Byakugan vs Sharingan is Power vs Versatility when we cannot prove the Byakugan has more power. There are MANY one hit kills in this anime, you don't have to have a Byakugan for that. But you cannot argue that the Sharingan is more versatile. I'd argue that the Amaterasu is more power than the jyuuken, but that's just my opinion, so I don't use it as an argument.

What other one-hit kills have we seen? And please try to argue that the Amaterasu is more powerful. We saw the thing for what? Two panels worth of manga? I can argue that the Byakugan is more powerful because the events in the manga show this. Independent from the user, the Byakugan gives more powerful techniques then the Sharingan has been shown to have so far. Stop trying to say "we can't argue which is more powerful" but "we can say the Sharingan is more versatile". Both are matters up for debate and thats what we're doing.

You seem to be confused on how I come to my opinions.
1. I read the manga.
2. I make opinions based on the facts in the manga.
3. I apply my opinions to the situtaion we are debating.

Any argument you all have presented that had basis in fact I haven't called an assumption. They are valid opinoins and I will debate them. The ones I won't debate are the ones that come out of left field and that are complete speculation.

This is opinion. There is no proof. What more is there to say? My opinion is that Tenten's description implied that the chakra control comes from training.

Then why haven't we seen the Sharingan copy it? Because Hyuuga blood enhances the ability to use chakra in that matter. Why hasn't anyone else in the series done it?

Spoiler:

Like Hunter pointed out, you can do it w/o the Byakugan as well.

I scanned back over the posts and didn't see this. Was it on the last page?

Just because it got beaten doesn't mean it wasn't useful. Sasuke would've lost to Lee no matter what bloodlines he had at that point, Lee was just plain better. Zabuza still lost in the end, he just managed to avoid the hypnosis. Nobody knows whether the Byakugan or the Sharingan has more techniques, but I'd be more inclined to believe the Sharingan does first, since it's a younger bloodline, and is hence less explored.

Yes, but you said the Sharingan was useful in all situations and I'm just saying it is not. Not saying the Byakugan is either. And my logic would be reverse for which has more techniques but that isn't important.

Umm, could you point out a single argument you made that wasn't based upon the arguments I did answer?

They were already addressed in another post I need to respond to, but just in case you were wondering here they are:

"Yes but the Byakugan style is based on the very basics of how each shinobi fights. Everyone uses chakra and no one can train the inside of their body. Therefore everyone is susceptible to it. Some have defenses against it, but no one is immune to it. The Sharingan is more versatile but not as powerful."

"

Spoiler:

The Byakugan was analyzed, but you know what. Neji still won anyway with the skills granted to him by the Hyuuga clan. Kakashi's Sharingan was neutralized by Zabuza in their second fight. He had to rely on his skills rather then his Sharingan to win. Did knowing all the jutsus he learned over the years help? Of course it did. I still contend they are different approaches to a fight. The Sharingan emphasizes versatility, while the Byakugen emphasizes power.

"

[F!reStr!fe]

If we try hard enough this Thread could last a long time and maybe break a world record

Just hit me I was thinkin since remember Itachi kept saying or was implying i dont have time for you sasuke doesnt it seem that hes sorta trying to make it up to his brother (in some weird twisted way). Also technically if he kills off his clan he wont have to worry about other intervining or more Sharingan ppl.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe

Im glad im not the one who started the pointless argument

Actually I think you were, I just fought back, or It could of been me talking about genius/hardwork then you said something of opposite effect, bleh, either way I didn't start it

[F!reStr!fe]

Originally Posted by Ke0

Or they're just narutally better?

Well acutally i was talking to Explosion of Youth and u said something so it started the arguement

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe

Well acutally i was talking to Explosion of Youth and u said something so it started the arguement

Ah, I see Touche

[gothlink666]

i'll go with sharingan for the fact that if you can see in 359d's you can see the sharingan and that adds up to 72 hour's you dont have.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by gothlink666

i'll go with sharingan for the fact that if you can see in 359d's you can see the sharingan and that adds up to 72 hour's you dont have.

Wha? Could you say that in plain english please

[Nine Devil]

Ke0 i hope this clears things up, if not your Japanese as well as your English is crap. Or you just want to ignore it.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Bane

What other one-hit kills have we seen? And please try to argue that the Amaterasu is more powerful. We saw the thing for what? Two panels worth of manga? I can argue that the Byakugan is more powerful because the events in the manga show this.

My point was exactly that we CANNOT argue one is more powerful than the other, so I DON'T use Amaterasu in my arguments, just as you should not make the blanket statement that Byakugan is more powerful. The events in the manga do not show this.

Independent from the user, the Byakugan gives more powerful techniques then the Sharingan has been shown to have so far. Stop trying to say "we can't argue which is more powerful" but "we can say the Sharingan is more versatile". Both are matters up for debate and thats what we're doing.

Well I hadn't realized both matters were up for debate. I was merely operating under the assumption that we all agreed that Sharingan has the edge in versatility, since your own statements along with everyone else's indicated they agreed with this. However, you made arguments assuming that the Byakugan is patently more powerful, when it is quite clear that many people do not agree with this. So Byakugan let's you use jyuuken as a weapon. Well Sharingan lets you use Chidori effectively in battle, along with Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. Who is to say which is more powerful?

You seem to be confused on how I come to my opinions.
1. I read the manga.
2. I make opinions based on the facts in the manga.
3. I apply my opinions to the situtaion we are debating.

Nonetheless, if it is clear that your opinions are not universally agreed upon, you can't use them as a basis for further argument without first addressing why other people disagree with them.

Then why haven't we seen the Sharingan copy it? Because Hyuuga blood enhances the ability to use chakra in that matter. Why hasn't anyone else in the series done it?

Because it requires training. The sharingan let's you copy techniques, but it doesn't give you the training and body/mind traits necessary to perform them.

Yes, but you said the Sharingan was useful in all situations and I'm just saying it is not. Not saying the Byakugan is either. And my logic would be reverse for which has more techniques but that isn't important.

I can't think of any situations where it is not useful to have. The ones you pointed out were situations where the user lost, not where the Sharingan wasn't useful. Sasuke may have lost to Lee, but at least he understood the techniques being used against him, and even got to copy one for later use.

They were already addressed in another post I need to respond to, but just in case you were wondering here they are:

"Yes but the Byakugan style is based on the very basics of how each shinobi fights. Everyone uses chakra and no one can train the inside of their body. Therefore everyone is susceptible to it. Some have defenses against it, but no one is immune to it. The Sharingan is more versatile but not as powerful."

"

Spoiler:

The Byakugan was analyzed, but you know what. Neji still won anyway with the skills granted to him by the Hyuuga clan. Kakashi's Sharingan was neutralized by Zabuza in their second fight. He had to rely on his skills rather then his Sharingan to win. Did knowing all the jutsus he learned over the years help? Of course it did. I still contend they are different approaches to a fight. The Sharingan emphasizes versatility, while the Byakugen emphasizes power.

"

So we have here a description of the strengths of the Byakugan, followed by a conclusion that it is more powerful? Let's try this equally ridiculous line of reasoning:

"Yes but the Sharingan techniques are based on the very basics of how each shinobi fights. Everyone has a face, and a face can have a chidori shoved into it. Therefore everyone is susceptible to it. Some have defenses against it, but no one is immune to it. The Sharingan is more versatile and more powerful."

I continue to contend that merely stating the strengths of the Byakugan does not prove that it is more powerful. Sharingan let's you use Chidori, Amaterasu, and Tsukiyomi. How can you PROVE that jyuuken is more powerful than these? Verastility, however, is something we can prove. Just look at all the myriad types of ninjas out there, and ask how many could incorporate Sharingan into their style without changing it significantly, and how many could incorporate Byakugan?

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by Nine Devil

Ke0 i hope this clears things up, if not your Japanese as well as your English is crap. Or you just want to ignore it.

I actually wont ignore it, but I'd just rather trust the translations from an actual Japanese person that speaks it on a daily basis, than say a translator who's doing it free of charge, and has messed up translations before. Then granted the slightest change in words can change the entire meaning of a sentence

[Bane]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

My point was exactly that we CANNOT argue one is more powerful than the other, so I DON'T use Amaterasu in my arguments, just as you should not make the blanket statement that Byakugan is more powerful. The events in the manga do not show this.

If me saying "I think the Byakugan grants more power to the user" is a blanket statement then so is "I think the Sharingan is more versatile". Even though I happen to agree with both, if you're saying we can't do one then we can't do the other which makes this whole argument pointless. If even ONE person says the Sharingan isn't as versatile then poof, we can't argue about it. Using your logic at least. We can argue which one we believe is more powerful. Isn't the name of the thread "Byakugan vs Sharingan"? If I just said the Byakugan is more powerful and gave no evidence then I could see where you might have a problem, but I've been referencing back to the manga and citing events that happen in it. You then give a counterargument and we go back and forth. Thats fun. Thats why I'm here. Not to argue about what I can and can't argue about.

Well I hadn't realized both matters were up for debate. I was merely operating under the assumption that we all agreed that Sharingan has the edge in versatility, since your own statements along with everyone else's indicated they agreed with this. However, you made arguments assuming that the Byakugan is patently more powerful, when it is quite clear that many people do not agree with this. So Byakugan let's you use jyuuken as a weapon. Well Sharingan lets you use Chidori effectively in battle, along with Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. Who is to say which is more powerful?

They are both up for debate it just so happens that I agree with you that the Sharingan is more versatile. That is why I havn't been challenging you on this point. But if someone comes in and suddenly says it isn't, does that mean we can't argue about it because there isn't a consensus?

Nonetheless, if it is clear that your opinions are not universally agreed upon, you can't use them as a basis for further argument without first addressing why other people disagree with them.

This is where I'm getting confused. I'm not basing anything upon my arguments that the Byakugan is more powerful. I'm reading the manga and making an opinion that it is more powerful. If, for example, I was to say that Neji > Sasuke because of the fact that the Byakugan > Sharingan, then you would have a case. That would be basing an opinion on something that is not a fact. But I'm not doing this. I'm just saying, from my point of view the Byakugan is more powerful then the Sharingan.

Because it requires training. The sharingan let's you copy techniques, but it doesn't give you the training and body/mind traits necessary to perform them.

Bingo. These "body/mind traits" are part of the Hyuuga bloodline that help them have greater control on where and how they emit chakra from their body.

I can't think of any situations where it is not useful to have. The ones you pointed out were situations where the user lost, not where the Sharingan wasn't useful. Sasuke may have lost to Lee, but at least he understood the techniques being used against him, and even got to copy one for later use.

But the Sharingan wasn't useful at that very moment, making your statement that the Sharingan is useful in all situations to be untrue. It can be nullified and therefore, not useful.

So we have here a description of the strengths of the Byakugan, followed by a conclusion that it is more powerful? Let's try this equally ridiculous line of reasoning:

"Yes but the Sharingan techniques are based on the very basics of how each shinobi fights. Everyone has a face, and a face can have a chidori shoved into it. Therefore everyone is susceptible to it. Some have defenses against it, but no one is immune to it. The Sharingan is more versatile and more powerful."

I continue to contend that merely stating the strengths of the Byakugan does not prove that it is more powerful. Sharingan let's you use Chidori, Amaterasu, and Tsukiyomi. How can you PROVE that jyuuken is more powerful than these? Verastility, however, is something we can prove. Just look at all the myriad types of ninjas out there, and ask how many could incorporate Sharingan into their style without changing it significantly, and how many could incorporate Byakugan?

You took that out of context. That was meant to show that the Byakugan is more versatile then you believed. You continually stated how it is only one style of fighting. That passage was to show that that one style of fighting applies to every shinobi and is therefore applicable to every situation. And do we even know the Amaterasu is an ability granted by the Sharingan? Or the Chidori for that matter?

[Explosion of Youth]

Originally Posted by Bane

You took that out of context. That was meant to show that the Byakugan is more versatile then you believed. You continually stated how it is only one style of fighting. That passage was to show that that one style of fighting applies to every shinobi and is therefore applicable to every situation. And do we even know the Amaterasu is an ability granted by the Sharingan? Or the Chidori for that matter?

TRUE anyone could use chidori, but Sharingan is needed for it to be effective. I believe in eps 66-67 it says you need chidori to react and detect attacks because you have to charge straight in. Someone without sharingan could do this, but wouldn't be able to detect and dodge an attack as fast.

Amaterasu is granted to a true sucessor of sharingan, i.e. Itachi.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bane

But the Sharingan wasn't useful at that very moment, making your statement that the Sharingan is useful in all situations to be untrue. It can be nullified and therefore, not useful.

The Sharingan achieved perfectly his function during this fight : to analyze and copy the attack and thus was useful.
Sasuke couldn't use his Sharingan in a useful way because he was too slow.
You once again confond the bloodline and the user.

Then for the Byakugan being more powerful than the Sharingan, how that?
There is no attack directly connected to the Byakugan contrary to the Sharingan.
The weapon allowed by the Byakugan is the Jyuken, a fighting style allowing to wound heavely and even kill in the worst case with a slight touch.

The Jyuken is surely an incredible fighting style, actually I think that the advanced Jyuken of Neji (with the Tenketsu) is the best and deadliest Taijutsu style of the whole serie.
But the 1 hit kills isn't reserved to the Hyuga, and I don't speak of limited use jutsu such as the Chidori or the Rasengan.

Spoiler:

the Chakra Scalpel is basically the exact opposite of the Hyuga style, it's only second to the advanced Jyuken and even better than the Jyuken of a regular Hyuga member.

The inner coils system is reliated to the inner organs producing chakra.
The Jyuken mess up with the chakra flow of the inner coils to damage the inner organs and the chakra scalpel destroys directly the inner organs which has the side effect to mess with the chakra production.

You can pare the Jyuken with your hands and harms (just look at Hinata vs. Neji), you must 'just' avoid at all cost to be hit at the main body where are the inner organs.
That's impossible against the advanced Jyuken of Neji because he will just seal the Tenketsu of your arms as Hinata sadly () noticed.
And that's impossible as well against someone using the Chakra Scalpel because if you pare with your harm, your muscles and/or bones will be cut.
And as the Jyuken, a direct hit to the heart can kill an opponent at once.

And that's just a hand seals, something that a Sharingan user can copy in a glance.

Actually it's that simple : imagine a fight of pure Taijutsu and nothing else between Sasuke and Neji, who will win?
I think about everybody will admit that Neji would win without a doubt.

Now let Sasuke sees the CS with his Sharingan once.
Now who will win?
I wouldn't bet much on Neji anymore, in a glance Sasuke would become about the equal of Neji in Taijutsu.
That's something that I call power.

[F!reStr!fe]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The Sharingan achieved perfectly his function during this fight : to analyze and copy the attack and thus was useful.
Sasuke couldn't use his Sharingan in a useful way because he was too slow.
You once again confond the bloodline and the user.

Then for the Byakugan being more powerful than the Sharingan, how that?
There is no attack directly connected to the Byakugan contrary to the Sharingan.
The weapon allowed by the Byakugan is the Jyuken, a fighting style allowing to wound heavely and even kill in the worst case with a slight touch.

The Jyuken is surely an incredible fighting style, actually I think that the advanced Jyuken of Neji (with the Tenketsu) is the best and deadliest Taijutsu style of the whole serie.
But the 1 hit kills isn't reserved to the Hyuga, and I don't speak of limited use jutsu such as the Chidori or the Rasengan.

Spoiler:

the Chakra Scalpel is basically the exact opposite of the Hyuga style, it's only second to the advanced Jyuken and even better than the Jyuken of a regular Hyuga member.

The inner coils system is reliated to the inner organs producing chakra.
The Jyuken mess up with the chakra flow of the inner coils to damage the inner organs and the chakra scalpel destroys directly the inner organs which has the side effect to mess with the chakra production.

You can pare the Jyuken with your hands and harms (just look at Hinata vs. Neji), you must 'just' avoid at all cost to be hit at the main body where are the inner organs.
That's impossible against the advanced Jyuken of Neji because he will just seal the Tenketsu of your arms as Hinata sadly () noticed.
And that's impossible as well against someone using the Chakra Scalpel because if you pare with your harm, your muscles and/or bones will be cut.
And as the Jyuken, a direct hit to the heart can kill an opponent at once.

And that's just a hand seals, something that a Sharingan user can copy in a glance.

Actually it's that simple : imagine a fight of pure Taijutsu and nothing else between Sasuke and Neji, who will win?
I think about everybody will admit that Neji would win without a doubt.

Now let Sasuke sees the CS with his Sharingan once.
Now who will win?
I wouldn't bet much on Neji anymore, in a glance Sasuke would become about the equal of Neji in Taijutsu.
That's something that I call power.

Hey if i didnt recall isnt the Chakra Scaple more of a medical technique that requires like precision and didnt Kabuto use it? Also Jyukken is using the coils to hurt the body. by pushing chakra into the coils forcefully and damaging organs.

Also I just remembered this doesnt The Byakugan need hand seals i swore i saw Neji and Hinata use Hand seals to do the technique. So that would be one of the down falls of the Byakugan,...

[AnimeFangirl]

I've seen Byakugan activated without the handseal, e.g. Hizashi when he was ...i dunno what he was trying to do. I'd say "giving Hinata a nasty look," but then someone might get the wrong idea I could have sworn I saw Neji go Byakugan without it too. Maybe the amateurs need the handseals but the experts can just activate it automatically. Now back to lurking in the murky depths....*slither*

[raikage]

Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe

Also I just remembered this doesnt The Byakugan need hand seals i swore i saw Neji and Hinata use Hand seals to do the technique. So that would be one of the down falls of the Byakugan,...

No. Sometimes hand seals are used and sometimes they aren't.

Sasuke activated his Sharingan without any hand seals as well.

Even if the Byakugan absolutely required seals, how is that a downfall? It's not like it can be copied.

Spoiler:

The Chakra Scalpel would definitely make Sasuke a more dangerous taijutsu fighter but not necessarily "better". It wouldn't increase his speed or decrease the effectiveness of his opponents. To be sure, it does make his hits deadly - but if he can't hit his opponent with the openhanded strike, then it doesn't really matter. It does put him on almost the same "one hit is enough" Jyuken level of taijutsu.

More to the point, someone like Tsunade can heal herself from physical injuries caused by the CS. She cannot reverse the advanced Jyuuken techniques - and I'm not sure about the basic Jyuuken since it still messes around with internal chakra pathways.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe

Hey if i didnt recall isnt the Chakra Scaple more of a medical technique that requires like precision and didnt Kabuto use it? Also Jyukken is using the coils to hurt the body. by pushing chakra into the coils forcefully and damaging organs.

Also I just remembered this doesnt The Byakugan need hand seals i swore i saw Neji and Hinata use Hand seals to do the technique. So that would be one of the down falls of the Byakugan,...

I think the whole handseal things is just to be cool, I mean some times Sasuke needs to do hand seals to do his Chidori, sometimes he doesn't (see Itachi fight)

Most of the time Neji doesn't do any handseals (Forest of Death, Fighting Naruto)
Neither does Hinata (Forest of Death, and Neji fight) Who really knows

But say it does REQUIRE handseals, I don't see how this would be a downfall, seeing as you can't copy the Byakugan with the Sharingan, and the handseal takes less than a second to do.

Spoiler:

Neji can make and use a chakra scapel as well. See Spiderboy fight. We all know Neji is the better hand to hand fighter between him and Sasuke, so even if Sasuke can copy the scapel and use it, I would say the fight is in Neji's favor. If he know's Sasuke is using CS, before Sasuke goes in for the attack, he can create a Chakra force field at that spot, stoping Sasuke's attac, and giving him enough time to do one of the following. Kill Sasuke, seal his tenketsus in his arms, etc etc

[evilryu]

You guys still going on about this? The only way to settle it is if we see an actual fight, not based on speculations. Pretty cool though seen arguments from both sides of the fanbase ;]