If danzo has one of shisui's eyes where isthe other? I don't know if I'm forgetting something but maybe "Madara" has it and is controllig sasuke and has been ever since sasuke first used Amaterasu on him.
But yeah was interesting that Madara didn't bleed but was made of white fluff.. I always thought that if these ninja were smart they would just use shadowclones for EVERYTHING and just chill out somewhere hidden.
But yeah was interesting that Madara didn't bleed but was made of white fluff.. I always thought that if these ninja were smart they would just use shadowclones for EVERYTHING and just chill out somewhere hidden.
Kage Bushin would kill the vast majority of Shinobi if they used it even a little bit during a fight. It is really a technique that is only useful for characters that get their chakra replenished via alternate sources (e.g. Jinchuuriki).
Kage Bushin would kill the vast majority of Shinobi if they used it even a little bit during a fight. It is really a technique that is only useful for characters that get their chakra replenished via alternate sources (e.g. Jinchuuriki).
Kakashi used KB as well and he's neither a chakra monster nor a Jinchuuriki. It's forbidden because you recieve part of the damage your clones take (except fatal damage) and you share your chakra equally among your clones which means that after creating just 5 clones you're left with 20% of your chakra and this often is not enough to use ninjutsu anymore. Look at young Sasuke only being able to perform two Chidori…
I also thought the White Fluff was interesting, leads me to think Zetsu has got somthing to do with Madara. I though at first that they were two seperate guys but as time goes on they get more and more connected.
I've read pretty much all of this thread and i'm still guessing as to what the crack is with Tobi/Madara (Props to Kishi for keeping us guessing).
If i had to go out on a limb i'd say it was actually madara but with a lot of running repairs after his fight with the 1st.
I also thought the White Fluff was interesting, leads me to think Zetsu has got somthing to do with Madara. I though at first that they were two seperate guys but as time goes on they get more and more connected.
I've read pretty much all of this thread and i'm still guessing as to what the crack is with Tobi/Madara (Props to Kishi for keeping us guessing).
If i had to go out on a limb i'd say it was actually madara but with a lot of running repairs after his fight with the 1st.
Still you never know though....
yeah, i have not a doubt in my mind it's actually madara, his body on the other hand is another thing, most likely zetsu's doing
what's interesting is that he did offer kabuto "a zetsu"
which brings to question what zetsu actually is, since it appears he could be given out like happy meals
yeah, i have not a doubt in my mind it's actually madara, his body on the other hand is another thing, most likely zetsu's doing
what's interesting is that he did offer kabuto "a zetsu"
which brings to question what zetsu actually is, since it appears he could be given out like happy meals
So far we only know that Zetsu is somehow created through the 1st Hokage's skills. Maybe Zetsu is some kind of leftover of Rikudou Senin's powers, a descendant of the Izanagi power...
So i been thinking about this on and off for a while and please excuse my grammar and spelling as i suck at that but I'll try my best to make it readable.
First i have to give background info to my theory. Do you all remember Orochimaru versus the 3rd hokage? i originally assumed the third coffin was 4th hokage but then i remember'd that the 4th was sealed in the death god(16 years prior to the batttle) so he couldn't of been brought back. The 3rd sealed the 1st and the 2nd into the deathgod and stated those who are sealed in here cannot be brought back.
So Who was the 3rd coffin Orochimaru summoned. I will get back to this soon.
The Key Person to finding out who Madara is no doubt Orochimaru. When Orochimaru was in the akatsuki he finds out Tobi's identity through some means. Tobi then warns Orochimaru not to say anything, Orochimaru was no slouch back then so they came to a deal. This all heppend breifly after Itachi is thinking that Tobi is Madara. For Orochimaru's Cooperation Tobi would not send any akatsuki after Orochimaru. This allowed Orochimaru to complete his immortal jutsu's without worrying about Akatsuki So Tobi told Orochimaru to do something reckless before leaving Akatsuki to make a good cover. Later on Orochimaru would attempt to take Itachi's Eyes to kill Tobi. The True reason Orochimaru left Akatsuki was not because he failed to get Itachi's Eyes. But because he found out Tobi's True identity.
Later on Orochimaru who is close to getting his sharigan decides its time to attack the akatsuki starting with sasori. but we all know how that heppend. Present day Itachi still thinks Tobi is Madara(why wouldn't he) Itachi implants Amaterasu in sasukes eyes to keep Tobi away from Sasuke but he failed. Tobi implies that even Itachi didn't know everything about him(Him not being madara)
Before the Sasuke v.s Itachi battle. Madara told Itachi about the cursed mark and how it effects Sasuke. Madara said exsaust sasuke as much as you can and either kill or make sure Orochimaru is sealed in your sword(So Orochimaru would not tell anyone Tobi's True identity). Itachi asked him whats in it for him. Madara told him that he will not kill Sasuke. Itachi didn't trust him but he thought his amaterasu(in sasukes eyes) would stop madara anyway if he lied
(Important ones)
Now When Kabuto meets up with Madara and shows the 6th coffin. Madara is shocked that someone like Kabuto would this. Kabuto then remarks that "Madara is in a league of his own truly," Tobi responds "Wise Guy". meaning that the person who Kabuto showed Tobi was in fact Madara and that Madara was in a league of his own from the akatsuki members to be able to scare Tobi. The Coffin could not have been 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/ It's possible it could of been the rokudo senin but i dont see it that way.
Now you're asking how would Kabuto know Tobi's True Identity. It all has to do with Orochimaru's Cells. Since Kabuto Absorbed Orochimaru he learned of Tobi's True Identity through Orochimaru's Cells.
As for the 3rd Coffin in the battle against the 3rd perhaps it was Madara or izuna.
But one things for sure. Tobi is not Madara and i have no clue at all who he is.
First i have to give background info to my theory. Do you all remember Orochimaru versus the 3rd hokage? i originally assumed the third coffin was 4th hokage but then i remember'd that the 4th was sealed in the death god(16 years prior to the batttle) so he couldn't of been brought back. The 3rd sealed the 1st and the 2nd into the deathgod and stated those who are sealed in here cannot be brought back.
So Who was the 3rd coffin Orochimaru summoned.
I'm not sure if we can assume that it was not the 4th hokage. He could not be summoned because he was sealed in the death god, and Orochi's summon failed, so that does not prove anything.
However we have learned from Kabuto how is the Edo Tensei working, Kabuto used the DNA of a dead man on a living sacrifice. And during this ritual the dead person's soul presumably returned to the body. If this is true then there is no way that the 3rd coffin was the 4th hokage because the ritual of Edo Tensei would have failed and Orochi would have realized that he cannot summon the 4th. In that case he tried to summon someone else. Or simply there is a plot hole
I'm not sure if we can assume that it was not the 4th hokage. He could not be summoned because he was sealed in the death god, and Orochi's summon failed, so that does not prove anything.
However we have learned from Kabuto how is the Edo Tensei working, Kabuto used the DNA of a dead man on a living sacrifice. And during this ritual the dead person's soul presumably returned to the body. If this is true then there is no way that the 3rd coffin was the 4th hokage because the ritual of Edo Tensei would have failed and Orochi would have realized that he cannot summon the 4th. In that case he tried to summon someone else. Or simply there is a plot hole
The 3rd Hokage implied as if he stopped it somehow. If i remember right he said he must not let the 3rd coffin open and while it was half way out of the hole he did some sort of handsign and grunted and it feel back down through the hole. But thats exactly why i think it wasn't the 4th because of the death god. The 3rd acted as if he was really worried about that 3rd coffin. The 3rd has no reason to believe that Madara might be alive so its possible the 3rd assumed it was Madara.
But Again Kabuto confronted Tobi with the likes of Itachi/Nagato/Deidara etc.. and these members weren't enough to scare Tobi. Once that failed Kabuto got out his backup plan the hidden coffin. Tobi was worried so much that he agreed to kabuto's plans. Kabuto gives a comment "Madara, You truly are in a league of your own" Tobi says "wiseguy"
Why would that be wise? unless the hidden coffin is non other then Madara. Who was in a league of his own from the akatsuki members and was enough to scare Tobi.
So then who is tobi.. All these little hints we are getting makes me think he is not who he says again. I gota give credit to kishi.. either im looking 2 deep in this or im on to something.
My top 4 list of who tobi is are the following if anyone is wondering.
i might have agreed with you in january, but right now there is no doubt in my mind he is madara, there isn't enough proof outside of speculation
first of all though:
wait, so it happened before the uchiha massacre?
yeah because most of orochimaru's prime in akatsuki was before the massacre breifly after the massacre did itachi finnaly join.
In my opinion Itachi met Tobi for the first time during the massacre.
I just cant get over that coffin kabuto used. and if tobi really is madara i cant seem him as the type of person that would get scared of anyone short of the rokoudo senin. But can it really be possible.
Kabuto would be insanely overpowered if he had the senin under his control
not to mention his other techniq he says combined with edo tensei makes him invincible. Tobi would be greatly outclassed
anyone i been thinking about this for a while most of my friends say its a good theory but far fetched and they think since Orochimaru is my favourite villian i want him involved with the story again in a better way
I'll start with who's in the coffin:
If Tobi is Madara, then the only people who could possibly scare him IMO, would be the Uchiha founder, maybe the Senju founder, or the Rikudou Sennin. The problem is they are all incredibly old. Kabuto said that while grave robbing, some corpses were so decomposed that there was no way to gather DNA. So this should be true about the Rikudou and his two sons. Unless Kabuto, being the mad scientist that he is, found a way to extract or collect their DNA.
I think the most likely answer to this scenario is that Tobi is looking at himself (Madara) in the Box. How that works is a different story.
If Tobi is not Madara, then you would think it would have to be Madara in the coffin. Then that would beg the question, who is Tobi? Given the current situation, it could be his brother Izuna. Anyone else would be a hard sell.
Izuna really hasn't had the hype that Madara has had, so if it turned out that Tobi was Izuna, it would be quite a shock. But if Kishi wants to go for shock value then Tobi unmasking himself to be none other than Tite Kubo would be world ending shock! You see if you take the first and last letters in his name, then the second last and second, it spells Tobi! It would also explain his behavior and reason for wearing a mask.
Anyway, I think Tobi is Madara, the person in the box is Madara, and how that works... I will talk about another time.
Spoiler for Short, years-ago timeline:
80 years ago - Madara awakens MS
33 years ago - Nagato starts training with J-man
30 years ago - Nagato finishes training with J-man
18 years ago - Minato named 4th, Oro leaves
16 years ago - Kyuubi Attack
10 years ago - Oro left Akatsuki
7 years ago - Uchiha Massacre
2 years ago - Manga starts
0 years ago
Spoiler for Long, order-of-events timeline:
Madara's Timeline of events as best as I can gather:
-Awakened Mangekyou Sharingan
-Gained control of Uchiha clan
-Took his brothers eyes gained Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan
-Fought Oonoki
-Fought Hashirama
-Joined forces with the Senju
-Formed the Hidden Leaf
-Left the Village
-Fought Hashirama for revenge (Long haired)
-Lost control of the Kyuubi, (sealed in Mito)
-Stole Hashirama's DNA
-Was defeated, presumed dead
-Meets Zetsu, Creates Akatsuki
-Somehow Gives Nagato the Rinnegan
-Teaches Nagato how to summon the Gedou Mazou
-Steals Kyuubi, attacks Konoha, fights Minato (Short haired) (Tiger Mask)
-Manipulated 4th Mizukage (Long haired)
-Thwarted Zabuza's Assasination attempt
-Recruited Kisame to work for him
-Manipulation jutsu uncovered by Ao
-Retreats from Kirigakure
-Recruited by Itachi for Uchiha Massacre (Long haired) (Tiger Mask)
-Has Contact with Danzou
-Helps Itachi Kill Uchiha Clan
-Akatsuki first attempt to capture 9 tails
-Calls himself Tobi
-Tobi askes to join Akatsuki (Swirl Mask)
-Akatsuki captures 1 tail
-Hangs with Zetsu while trying to join Akatsuki
-Searches for Sasori's ring with Zetsu
-Joines Akatsuki as Sasori's replacement
-Captures 3 tails with Diedara
-(Akatsuki captures 4 tails)
-Helps Diedara fight Sasuke
-Meets with Pain, tells Pain to capture 9 tails
-Plays with Konoha ninja buying time for Sasuke to fight Itachi
-Takes Sasuke and Itachi's body back to MG hideout
-Tells Sasuke about Itachi
-Hawk joins Akatsuki
-Sends Sasuke to retrieve 8 tails
-Hawk fails, Konoha destroyed, Pain defeated by Naruto
-Pain uses Heretical Rebirth on Konoha instead of him
-Madara sends Sasuke to Kage summit
-Madara reveals Operation Moon's Eye
-Madara declares war
-Madara has Sasuke kill Danzou
-Madara uses Izanagi, kills Konan, takes Rinnegan
-Madara teams up with Kabuto (Sharingan Mask)
You're timeline is pretty accurate but like the poster above me mentioned During the massacre Orochimaru was still in the akatsuki. It wasn't till he tried to take Itachi's eyes did he leave so Orochimaru couldn't of left Akatsuki 3 years before Itachi joined.
I'm interested on reading your theory on madara being in the box but at the same time being Tobi.
The more and more i think about the more i really see Madara in that casket for example
[snip]
Kabuto says Tobi can relax he hasn't told a soul, can you name 1 person who tobi would want to be kept secret? what is there 2 keep a secret about the sennin or Izuna being summoned incase u mentioned one of them. Being brought back by this techniq would only comfirm one of those died hench keeping a secret is usless.
The only explanation is Madara. Tobi said he was Madara, And Madara is in the casket. Its only logical Tobi would not want this to get out.
[snip]
can someone give me one good reason why Kabuto would say
"Uchica Madara, you truely are in a league of your own" with Madara saying "wiseguy" What is so wise about what Kabuto said unless...
Madara is in that casket
Last edited by james0246; 2011-06-05 at 23:31.
Reason: please do not post sites that host licensed materials...
can't be, itachi joined the akatsuki AFTER the massacre
You are correct sir, nice catch. I'm surprised I didn't catch this myself.
Sasuke is supposed to be 7 at the time of the Uchiha Clan Massacre. He is supposed to be 16 at the current time. Oro left Akatsuki 7 years before the start of the Manga.
So I have made the corrections to better reflect this:
Spoiler for Timeline:
31 yrs 7 mo. ago - Nagato starts training with J-man
28 yrs 7 mo. ago - Nagato finishes training with J-man
17 yrs 7 mo. ago - Minato named 4th
16 yrs 7 mo. ago - Oro leaves Konoha, joins Akatsuki
15 yrs 7 mo. ago - Kyuubi Attack, Naruto Born
9 yrs 7 mo. ago - Itachi Joins Akatsuki,
9 yrs 7 mo. ago - Oro attempts to take over Itachi, leaves Akatsuki
7 yrs 7 mo. ago - Uchiha Clan Massacre
3 yrs 7 mo. ago - Start of Manga
3 yrs 1 mo. ago - Chuunin Exam Starts
3 yrs ago - Sand and Sound attack Konoha
3 yrs ago - Itachi and Kisame attempt to capture Naruto
2 yr 10 mo. ago - Naruto vs Sasuke at VotE
10 mo. ago - Naruto leaves Konoha to train with J-man
4 mo. ago - Naruto returns to Konoha
2 mo. ago - Itachi dies
1 mo. ago - Akatsuki attacks Konoha, Nagato dies
1 mo. ago - Kage Summit
0 - Present time
2 years between 4th ninja war and manga starts?
Just think the time that naruto was away from Konoha with Jiraiya... and i don't know the time between the start and the time-skip.. or the time from the arrival of Naruto and the 4th ninja war.
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